What Kind of Reality for the Plates, on a Tavesian Hypothesis?

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I think Taves' hypothesis allows for the metaphysical existence of the plates, meaning that the sacred creation of the plates by JS could represent some real spiritual analog of himself and his beliefs, which spiritual reality was tangible enough to enter the metaphysical psyche of others who saw the plates, Moroni, etc.

Would you (or Taves) say the same of the legends of King Arthur and the knights of his Roundtable, as viewed through the mists of Malory and von Eschenbach (Excalibur, the Holy Grail, Parsifal's sacred spear, Grail Castle, and all)?  Is any of that materially different from the golden-hilted Sword of Laban, breastplate, interpreter-spectacles, Liahona, and Golden Book?  These sacred relics also parallel those found in the allegorical cave-tomb of an undecayed Christian Rosencreutz, including the Books I (on parchment) and M, bright, inscribed, circular brass plates, an orbis terrarum (minutum mundum), looking-glasses, bells, lamps, etc., all of which are resealed in the vault called the "Amphitheater of Eternal Wisdom," and left for posterity to rediscover -- according to the Rosicrucians (F. Yates, Rosicrucian Enlightenment, 128, 242, 246-249).  

Whatever the case, Geo Widengren demonstrated that the numinous heavenly tablets (dupšīmatī) go together with the lot-casting equipment (nadū parsē).  In ancient Mesopotamian religion, these heavenly tablets were central to the annual royal enthronment ritual, the king receiving the book at his ascension into the assembly of the gods (puhru ilani), and also receiving the cedar staff (symbol of the Tree of Life) and oracles.  These tablets are the tablets of destiny, wisdom, of the mystery of heaven & earth, etc.  In the Babylonian Enuma elish IV, 121-122, for example, the assembly of the gods under Marduk meets at the New Year Festival in the Chamber of Destiny and "decides the fate of the coming year," having conquered Kingu (the husband of Tiamat) and taking the tablets from him (cf. Laban) and affixing them to Marduk's breast.  The numinous tablets are carried thus in a pouch or bag (takāltu), in which they are sealed (kunukku).  All rulers receive the cosmic relics at enthronement, as with Mosiah II (Mosiah 1:16) and Joseph Smith, Jr.  The ruler is thereby commissioned to slay the enemy, even Labbu (Widengren, The Ascension of the Apostle and the Heavenly Book (King and Saviour III) [1950]).  Again the ritual association of the slaying of Laban by Nephi is inescapable, even including the similarity of name of the evil entity! All of this likewise is part of the call of a prophet, as John W. Welch has shown in his study of the call of Lehi.  Welch, "The Calling of a Prophet," paper presented 10 Oct 1986 at the Annual BYU Religious Studies Center Book of Mormon Symposium, and published in M. Nyman & C. Tate, eds., First Nephi: The Doctrinal Foundation (1988), 35-54.

The connection of the sacred gold plates with the path, spring, and tree of life in Lehi’s vision must also be emphasized, since they are all an integral part of Orphism from the 7th century B.C. into European Renaissance times, i.e., as with material from the Corpus Hermeticum, second and third century A.D. Orphic hymns were known still and utilized in Renaissance times by the likes of the magi Ficino and Pico della Mirandola.  C. W. Griggs, "Book of Mormon as an Ancient Book: Gold Plates and the Tree of Life from the Ancient Mediterranean," GRI-81 (FARMS/BYU Studies 22/3 [1982], 259ff; reprint); Frances Yates, Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition (1964), 78-79, citing esp. Walker, “Orpheus the Theologian and the Renaissance Platonists,” Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, XVI (1953), 100-120.

Orphism required the “proper rituals and sacrifices by means of which one obtained absolution from one’s own and one’s ancestors sins.”  The sacramental nature of Orphic religion had a great deal in common with Christianity (and Mormonism).  Plato, Republic, II:364bc, and 364e, Orphic cathartic ritual telestai “initiations” as described by O. Kern, Orphicorum Fragmenta (1922), 81-82.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, smac97 said:

.......................................

Quote

In the mid-16th century, for example, English sailor David Ingram and several shipmates were marooned on a coast of Mexico. Ingram and a couple of dozen other sailors began a journey northward. Eleven months later Ingram and two of his comrades had reached Nova Scotia Canada (just a bit further northeast of Joseph Smith’s home land).

..............................

It isn't only Ingram, but note also the 8-year journey of a member of the Captain Narvaez Expedition, Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca, across southern North America beginning in 1528 (he was a shipwrecked royal treasurer from Seville, Spain; see de Vaca’s own account, Castaways, ed. Enrique Pupo-Walker; trans. F. M. Lopez-Morillas [1993]).  Going in the opposite direction, we have René Robert La Salle, who made the trip by canoe from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico in 1682 and colonized the Louisiana coast -- later followed by the Acadians (“Cajuns”) as refugees from Acadia/ Nova Scotia/ New Brunswick.

What did Moroni do during the circa 35 years following the virtual destruction of his people at Cumorah in Mesoamerica?  How did he get the gold plates to that small hill near Manchester in New York (which neither he nor Joseph called "Cumorah")?  Did he simply follow the Hopewell trade network of the Middle Woodland and later periods – an area extending from the Gulf of Mexico to Lakes Superior and Huron, and from the regions of New York to Kansas City, and even into Wyoming?  The Handbook of North American Indians, 15:44, provides that extent of trade in Moroni's day.  The highly concentrated wealth of the chiefdoms in the Hopewell Culture was at its peak when Moroni possibly traversed the area (15:49).  Temple mounds were being built and agriculture was being practiced on a large scale.  The following Late Woodland period, ca. 400-1000 A.D., is not at all as culturally impressive (15:52, 54), although the sophisticated Middle Mississippian Cahokia mounds are certainly worthy of notice.

Non-Mormon scholar Richard Forbis thinks that  

Quote

 . .  . certain generalized and particular artifact types and features speak strongly for contacts with Mesoamerica, among them being mound-building, lapidary industries, earspools, female figurines, and petal-shaped celts (ungrooved axes).  All are earlier in Mesoamerica than in Adena, and they persisted there long enough to provide a contemporaneous source of inspiration.  Appealing to independent invention to account for these traits in Adena is hardly economical.
         Contacts between the two areas were probably indirect, by sea across the Caribbean and up the rivers draining into the Gulf Coast and the Atlantic Ocean.  Early sites indicative of these contacts do indeed exist.
        *        *        *        *        *        *
         But no given artifact is demonstrably of Mesoamerican manufacture.  Nor are there any close linguistic relationships remaining to suggest that Mesoamerican hordes stormed the Southeast, either then or at any other time.  What seems more probable is that small parties of Mesoamerican wanderers or traders circulated among the basically Archaic population.  Forbis in Gorenstein, ed., North America, 81,83, 85 (see Map 3.2).

Moroni was likely shown hospitality all along the way, and had plenty of time in which to get to his objective in the future Manchester, New York area.  Ancestors of the Iroquois League likely inhabited the area then.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

The brother of Jared mining, smelting and presenting the sixteen stones to the Lord to solve a practical problem using faith and effort is consistent with Taves' idea that Joseph Smith hand-crafted metal plates and presented them to the Lord to solve a practical problem such as Moroni telling him "there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent" and someone having lost or stolen them, a secret Joseph kept to his grave.

Where did the sixteen stones go after the voyage? I propose the downfall of the Jaredite civilization began with people questioning their reality rather than their own personal reality in terms of "what is real" in the Alma 32 sense 

 

Excellent excellent point I had not even thought of.  It is as if the BOM itself is telling the story of its origination- or - from an alternative point of view- Joseph justifying and describing his own procedure in making the plates.   Really a great catch!!

[DonBradley]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I was there too and that was my first time hearing Jared Hickman in person.  I had a hard time following everything he said, but it was pretty cool what I could follow.  Thanks for sharing! 

Dang, Blueglass and Hope For Things, I would have loved to have met you there. Or did I? I guess I wouldn't have known if I did!

Yeah, it was a really great presentation. He was going fast trying to fit everything in. 

Don

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Smac,

I agree that in her attempt to deal with the plates there are a host of questions that Taves's hypothesis doesn't address regarding Joseph's narrative about the plates.

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is what kind of reality people might accord to the plates under Taves's hypothesis. 

Don

Under Taves' hypothesis, the plates themselves would lie. ie the BoM containing the Book of Moroni would be lying that he was preparing plates for a later generation. That's the reality of her hypothesis. That is in addition to all the other lies such a hypothesis would force on Joseph Smith and the 3  witnesses.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Mark,

This is an excellent write up, especially the first parts about the clash of Mormon culture and the secular.  I loved it, and I wanted to tell you thank you once again, and I would be interested in hearing more about your ideas on that subject specifically, and where you think apologetics and Mormon studies need to go in the future, as I think this is very important for the future success of the religion as well.  If you are inclined to share more ideas on that topic, please let me know.  Thanks

The bottom line is that historically the predominant philosophical base of Christianity was Neoplatonism and then later during and after the Enlightenment it became Cartesianism.

That position, in short, makes any religious belief untenable by definition because it separates thought and ideas from "reality" as we experience it.   So for hundreds of years Christianity has struggled with the conflict between verifiable "reality" and scriptural interpretation.  Because "truth" was taken to be correspondence with "reality" by ideas, any religious ideas were automatically left out of the loop.  If truth is only correspondence with visible reality, and God is invisible, then obviously God cannot be "real".

This is the simplistic attitude of your uneducated atheist we see hereabouts all the time.

But in the 1800's- really starting right around 1800- things changed radically in philosophy, arguably with the philosophy of Kant.   I don't want to get into it in detail here - there is no reason to do so- but with Kant's idea of the "synthetic a priori" essentially he shows that even our perceptions are created by humans.  What we see as "logic" are the RULES by which we perceive things.  Another more modern way of saying that, is that even logic itself demonstrates the way our brains work to allow us to survive, and not necessarily about the universe around us.  It's not that the universe corresponds to logic and math but that logic and math demonstrate the limits we have of seeing the world.   So we look out at the universe and see only what we are capable of understanding in the categories of "reason" limited by our funny little primate brains.  Our minds look out and really what we learn is more about the way we see things than "reality as it is".   Rorty wrote a book called "Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature"- and that phrase really captures it.   We look out at nature and we see ourselves looking back, as in a mirror.  So our view of nature mirrors us, not "things as they are", but only as we can perceive them and create theories about what we see.   The theories work because they accomplish OUR goals in creating the theory.  

What else happened in the early 1800's?

The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

And what happened to the philosophy of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ?

It never happened because the philosophy of the day was inadequate to explain as "true" events like visions and personal revelation, and besides the Saints were a little too busy trying to survive to worry about it.  Instead of reading books, they were dodging mobs and being run from place to place.

But academia marched on through Romanticism and then the roots of Phenomenology through Hegel's philosophy and in the USA we had Pragmatism which directly assaulted the "reality/appearance" distinction.  Pragmatism says essentially that science and everything we do is driven by human motivation to create tools which give us tangible benefits like comfort and other useful abilities- like flying to the moon etc.

But suddenly emotional needs were actually driving philosophical definitions and so guys like William James were concluding that spiritual experience is a perfectly "real" aspect of human life which solved real human problems and helped develop a way of seeing logic which actually includes the idea that religious beliefs are "rational".   He said essentially that the test of truth was what worked in our lives.  Growing out of this tradition came guys like Kuhn with his notion of "Paradigms" and similarly Wittgenstein who saw meaning as contextual.  That's good for religion.  Science has its sphere, and religion has it's sphere and they are not about the same subjects.  The idea exploded in Phenomenology that reality as we know it is based on our subjective ways of seeing the world.   Other philosophers went the same direction - guys like Whitehead who started to see the creation of reality as a process and that reality is socially created.

Meanwhile back and the ranch in Utah, we have Alma 32 saying that truth is what works, and D&C saying that truth operates in spheres, which sounds exactly like what the philosophers were saying.

But wait.  We have to go by scripture and not the "philosophies of men" because those are "relativistic"= BAD because truth has to be absolute.

Why does truth have to be absolute?  Because  Christian Neoplatonism says so and so said the Catholic church fathers!!!  God is Absolute and unchanging and Perfect because Aquinas said so.

But wait- we are not Catholic any more.  Our God is our Father who changes and hears and answers prayers.  Alma 32 says that truth is what grows in your heart, not what corresponds to "reality".   D&C 93 says truth exists in spheres but actually believing that science has its sphere and religion has its sphere is wrong because it is a philosophy of men and relativistic.   There must be ONE unified TRVTH of all things unchangeable and absolute!

Meanwhile in philosophical academia we have a reaction to all this relativism in the early 20th century too!  It is called "logical positivism".  Truth either corresponds to reality or it is meaningless- only scientific statements have meaning.   Religion is meaningless because it cannot be verified scientifically.  Appearance corresponds to reality

But within 50 years positivism dies because it just does not work.  You cannot postulate a difference between reality and appearances because you cannot get outside of appearances to check if they "correspond" or not!

But Mormonism is still mostly stuck in Neoplatonism.  It is changing with guys like Mason who gets all this if he talks about it or not.  It is obvious from his approach and the fact that he is from Claremont.  Givens gets it totally.  We see reactions from guys like Boyce- who is the poster child for the traditional view.   Ostler sees himself as a process philosopher.

So where do we go from here, imo?

Hermeneutics.

Interpretations ARE the closest we get to "reality" since reality itself is human created.  God is a Human and he created it, right?  Therefore it is human created.  We are of the same species and think according to the same categories.

 Looking at scriptures and how to interpret them and what that implies in theories- all of which are made of texts.  Mormons get to create their own worlds from matter unorganzied through their own spiritual experiences.  THAT is the strength of Mormonism.   We cannot have "systematic theology" but that in itself is a philosophical position.  So what are the rules which justify one interpretation over another?  THAT becomes the issue- it is not generating a theory about the big picture but a theory about how to interpret data found in the texts- in all texts

I of course see that as following something like Kuhn on the science side and Pragmatism on the linguistic analysis side.  Gadamer et al.

You asked for it.

And for the future, only a sophisticated view of hermeneutics and frankly toward what is erroneously understood as "relativism" will save Mormon thought IF the world continues on the path it is taking.  We need to emphasize D&C 93 and Alma 32 and Moroni 10 and James 1 and all the other scriptures that link interpretations to multiple views as "valid"

The reality is we DO believe in a life-style and not a dogma therefore within bounds, orthopraxis is the rule and not and not orthodoxy.

It is impossible to affirm One Absolute Truth with an open canon.  Impossible.  Either God reveals truth as humans need it or we have no need for prophets.  Either people can go directly to God to confirm what the prophets say they want or we have unquestioned robotic obedience which is "Satan's Plan"

Contemporary philosophy justifies all these positions and here we sit ignoring all that is in our favor because they are the "philosophies of men" and "relativistic" while we affirm creating out own worlds and following the spirit

Taves is in the mainstream with the idea that we create our own realities.  That should be a very Mormon idea, but instead we still want Absolute truth.

You may well disagree with her and think she is totally wrong but not on the assumption that somehow it is a harebrained theory.

So apologetics needs to catch up with Mormon studies which affirms at least the validity of Taves' approach.

Mormon studies says "Yes, Taves has a reasonable position worthy of publication" while Cartesianism- with the appearance reality distinction sees it as "calling Joseph a liar"

So I am by no means saying that "Taves is right"- just that she has a reasonable position to be considered.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm no academic so I don't think I'm qualified to judge from that perspective.

But when you pull the thread of any of the foundational spiritual visions it can cause all the spirituality of Mormonism to unravel. I think Smac did a good job of showing how the narrative would unravel.  Likewise other spiritually established elements would go with it.

Not if you are actually thinking spiritually- that your experiences directly as you have them are "real"

In my world God helps me find my keys and the world is full of spiritual magic.  I think like a 5 year old.    Joseph only would be a "liar" if he thought in terms of Cartesianism and hard facts that are objective as opposed to seeing spiritual magic everywhere.  In my world there are no coincidences because I have decided to see it that way.

I suppose I am quite primitive, thank goodness.   I have come full circle.

But I can plug in the "adult" if I have to but I hate it.  I know that such views are philosophically justifiable thank God, literally.

How can affirming the reality of visions and spiritual transformation unravel spirituality??

Seems like an odd view to me.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It isn't only Ingram, but note also the 8-year journey of a member of the Captain Narvaez Expedition, Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca, across southern North America beginning in 1528 (he was a shipwrecked royal treasurer from Seville, Spain; see de Vaca’s own account, Castaways, ed. Enrique Pupo-Walker; trans. F. M. Lopez-Morillas [1993]).  Going in the opposite direction, we have René Robert La Salle, who made the trip by canoe from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico in 1682 and colonized the Louisiana coast -- later followed by the Acadians (“Cajuns”) as refugees from Acadia/ Nova Scotia/ New Brunswick.

What did Moroni do during the circa 35 years following the virtual destruction of his people at Cumorah in Mesoamerica?  How did he get the gold plates to that small hill near Manchester in New York (which neither he nor Joseph called "Cumorah")?  Did he simply follow the Hopewell trade network of the Middle Woodland and later periods – an area extending from the Gulf of Mexico to Lakes Superior and Huron, and from the regions of New York to Kansas City, and even into Wyoming?  The Handbook of North American Indians, 15:44, provides that extent of trade in Moroni's day.  The highly concentrated wealth of the chiefdoms in the Hopewell Culture was at its peak when Moroni possibly traversed the area (15:49).  Temple mounds were being built and agriculture was being practiced on a large scale.  The following Late Woodland period, ca. 400-1000 A.D., is not at all as culturally impressive (15:52, 54), although the sophisticated Middle Mississippian Cahokia mounds are certainly worthy of notice.

Non-Mormon scholar Richard Forbis thinks that  

Moroni was likely shown hospitality all along the way, and had plenty of time in which to get to his objective in the future Manchester, New York area.  Ancestors of the Iroquois League likely inhabited the area then.

I am of course no expert at all but it seems to me a good hike from South to North would be considerably easier than East-West.   No mountains in the way!

Just a long stroll day after day following the North Star and shooting game on the way as it is presented.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Jacob physically wrestled with some sort of "human" who later turned out to be at least an angel or perhaps even the Lord himself, and this individual was tangible enough for poor Israel to limp away with a broken leg.  Mormon lore is full of tales of the Three Nephites who appear as totally indistinguishable from mortals and then disappear after their mission is accomplished  The resurrected Lord Himself was at first thought by some of the first visitors to the tomb to be a "gardener" and showed no special "supernatural" qualities

Can a plain old mortal human like you or me, be "sacralized" to appear as an angel when the difference between humans and angels is imperceptible ?  

So some sort of human, resurrected, natural, or "angel"

1) Told Joseph about the plates years in advance of their actual discovery

2) Eventually told Joseph where to find them

3) Provided Joseph, in the same location as the plates, stones to use to translate them, though eventually Joseph used other stones, yet the belief that stones could be used was affirmed by the action.

4) Eventually caused the plates to disappear.

I have no problem seeing this human as the resurrected personage named Moroni.

There is no "perceptible" thing to distinguish someone as an angel other than their delivering a message like you state Moroni did (or follow the grand key given by Joseph):

"1) Told Joseph about the plates years in advance of their actual discovery

2) Eventually told Joseph where to find them."

Has Moroni been to heaven or is he a translated being in paradise? Has he been "awarded the status of angel" or an elohim? We don't know. The reason he is called an angel is because he acted as an angelos or messenger. As the messenger of the covenant the scripture calls our Savior a malak. The Hebrew word malak or messenger becomes angelos in Greek and angel in English. Any man sent as a messenger is therefore "an angel." Christianity is so used to thinking of angels as some third type of created being that it simply ignores scripture. However, scripture plainly calls Gabriel "the man, Gabriel."  Nor does orthodoxy pay attention to Paul who tells the disciples that they will judge angels. What does that make these disciples, and how can angels possibly be judged if they don't come to earth as men and women?

Edited October 19, 2017 by RevTestament

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I am of course no expert at all but it seems to me a good hike from South to North would be considerably easier than East-West.   No mountains in the way!

Just a long stroll day after day following the North Star and shooting game on the way as it is presented.

Or being the guest of a local tribe, eating venison with them, and spending the night in a nice hogan or teepee.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Excellent excellent point I had not even thought of.  It is as if the BOM itself is telling the story of its origination- or - from an alternative point of view- Joseph justifying and describing his own procedure in making the plates.   Really a great catch!!

As has sometimes been pointed out before, bread and water, oil, handkerchiefs, money, buildings, articles of clothing and tokens, etc. have been presented or consecrated to the Lord for Him to sanctify for some holy purpose (and they are all turn out to be practical purposes, depending on how spiritual one is!).

Most of the plates mentioned in the Book of Mormon were expressly commanded by the Lord to have been made by His servants. Two exceptions where men used their own initiative (that I can think of) are the plates of brass and the plates of Ether (Mosiah correctly surmised that, "Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men." -- Mosiah 8:19), which contained some of the same material as the brass plates (Ether 1:3) and which Ether finished after he was cast out from the people and dwelling in the cavity of a rock (Ether 13:1-15). But then again, these (as other sacred records) still followed the spirit of the creation of Adam's book of remembrance, which were written by "as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration... according to the pattern given by the finger of God."

[hope_for_things]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And for the future, only a sophisticated view of hermeneutics and frankly toward what is erroneously understood as "relativism" will save Mormon thought IF the world continues on the path it is taking.  We need to emphasize D&C 93 and Alma 32 and Moroni 10 and James 1 and all the other scriptures that link interpretations to multiple views as "valid"

The reality is we DO believe in a life-style and not a dogma therefore within bounds, orthopraxis is the rule and not and not orthodoxy.

It is impossible to affirm One Absolute Truth with an open canon.  Impossible.  Either God reveals truth as humans need it or we have no need for prophets.  Either people can go directly to God to confirm what the prophets say they want or we have unquestioned robotic obedience which is "Satan's Plan"

This whole post is excellent, thanks for putting the timeline together and your vision of how things have played out philosophically and that interaction with religion and then the view into the future, and the problems we are faced with today.  I really loved it and I'm going to re-read this a few times.  Really helps me understand where you're coming from and I think there is so much wisdom here.  Thank you! 

[Kevin Christensen]

I've just completed a 19,000 word essay on Taves's Revelatory Events that has been accepted and will appear in Interpreter at some point.  The title is "Playing to an Audience". 

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited October 19, 2017 by Kevin Christensen

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

As has sometimes been pointed out before, bread and water, oil, handkerchiefs, money, buildings, articles of clothing and tokens, etc. have been presented or consecrated to the Lord for Him to sanctify for some holy purpose (and they are all turn out to be practical purposes, depending on how spiritual one is!).

Most of the plates mentioned in the Book of Mormon were expressly commanded by the Lord to have been made by His servants. Two exceptions where men used their own initiative (that I can think of) are the plates of brass and the plates of Ether (Mosiah correctly surmised that, "Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men." -- Mosiah 8:19), which contained some of the same material as the brass plates (Ether 1:3) and which Ether finished after he was cast out from the people and dwelling in the cavity of a rock (Ether 13:1-15). But then again, these (as other sacred records) still followed the spirit of the creation of Adam's book of remembrance, which were written by "as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration... according to the pattern given by the finger of God."

IE: Created by man and offered to the Lord to be made holy!

I think you have found the pattern shown by the book itself! Exciting stuff!

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I've just completed a 19,000 word essay of Taves's Revelatory Events that has been accepted and will appear in Interpreter at some point.  The title is "Playing to an Audience". 

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Can't wait!

[clarkgoble]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I actually mentioned the Lucy Smith Urim and Thummim rememberance earlier and I'm glad you quoted it.  That is the only reference to a physical experience with the other objects besides the plates that came to mind.  One late recollection does not make a significant amount of evidence.  

I think it's reasonable to be skeptical in a measured way.  I'm also skeptical of alien and big foot witness accounts as I imagine you are as well.  

It's not that late - 15 years. Although clearly it's not contemporary. There's also the Henry Caswall reporting of an interview with Lucy Smith in City of the Mormons from 1843. So a different account from a few years earlier. 

"I have myself seen and handled the golden plates; they are about eight inches long, and six wide; some of them are sealed together and are not to be opened, and some of them are loose. They are all connected by a ring which passes through a hole at the end of each plate, and are covered with letters beautifully engraved. I have seen and felt also the Urim and Thummim. They resemble two large bright diamonds set in a bow like a pair of spectacles. My son puts these over his eyes when he reads unknown languages, and they enable him to interpret them in English. I have likewise carried in my hands the sacred breastplate. It is composed of pure gold, and is made to fit the breast very exactly."

So far as I know we don't have any other witness of the breastplate that's in a reasonable time frame. There is the very late William Smith account but that was decades later when he was in his 80's and so probably isn't too trustworthy and it's hard to tell what he saw versus what he'd been told. That's the interview of him in 1891 in The Rod of Iron.

Among other things we inquired minutely about the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. We asked him what was meant by the expression "two rims of a bow," which held the former. He said a double silver bow was twisted into the shape of the figure eight, and the two stones were placed literally between the two rims of a bow. At one end was attached a rod which was connected with the outer edge of the right shoulder of the breast-plate. By pressing the head a little forward, the rod held the Urim and Thummim before the eyes much like a pair of spectacles. A pocket was prepared in the breastplate on the left side, immediately over the heart. When not in use the Urim and Thummim was placed in this pocket, the rod being of just the right length to allow it to be so deposited. This instrument could, however, be detached from the breastplate and his brother said Joseph often wore it detached when away from home, but always used it in connection with the breastplate when receiving official communications, and usually so when translating as it permitted him to have both hands free to hold the plates.

I'm not sure this is comparable to Bigfoot accounts since those claiming to see Bigfoot see him at a distance and not as something handled over time and in their presence. Certainly some skepticism is in order. There's fewer accounts than say for the plates themselves or the interpreters.

[clarkgoble]

17 hours ago, blueglass said:

By far the best talk I enjoyed at the gold plates seminar at UT State earlier this year 2017 was by Jared Hickman (time-warp wormhole, wafting from earth to the moon and other planets) and the process of putting aside the problem of the missing physical artifact and finding value in a reading of the text that we've got.  I like to see that non-mormon scholars are finding an interest in the text by taking this approach (margaret barker, liz fenton, peter coviello).  The book of mormon sprints around time and place unlike any text which is actually from antiquity like papyrus P52, or the priestly blessing from numbers on silver scrolls from Ketef Hinnom, 4Q Enoch from the DSS.  The book is so filled with anachronisms that it will make your head split to try to make it work in nibley's ancient world or as an actual meroitic egyptian, tumbaga artifact.  I see the book of mormon as sacred midrash, a heavenly book received in joseph's mind much like the heavenly book Lehi reads from in 1Nephi1.   My view is pearl curran + blake ostler.  The text is a modern expansion of an ancient text received in the mind.  The book is mixed with work from the quran, late war, rights of christ, uncle john's bible, and joseph's own christian midrash.  Joseph used this brown genesis seer stone to scry/translate himself into the mind of mormon/moroni like pearl curran climbed into the mind of patience worth.  Joseph is also a super sponge which pulls from every text and word in his surroundings and remixes the material.   

I think it clear the translation must be loose and I think it likely there are expansions to the text. I'm not sure saying it is "filled with anachronisms" is correct, depending upon what one means by that. My sense is most anachronisms are translation artifacts. The only exception I can think of are metalworking which, so far as we've been able to discover, didn't exist in any wide form and arguably is the biggest issue with the historic Book of Mormon. The other examples (deutero-Isaiah, Malachi) I think can be dealt with in a reasonable if somewhat speculative fashion.

It's worth noting thought that, contra Nibley, there are pretty strong reasons to be skeptical comparing the text too closely to other ancient texts. That's despite some interesting parallels to Enochian or Merkabah texts. First off the compared texts are usually fairly late (typically 200 BCE - 200 CE) and so it's very speculative whether a proto-tradition was available to Lehi. Perhaps a reasonable speculation, but literarywise one should be cautious. More significantly though Mormon is writing 1000 years after Lehi from a very, very different culture. While he apparently has access to the brass plates, we don't know what is on those nor what form they have. (It's possible there were other ANE texts Lehi also brought - but we have good reason to be skeptical)

Thus the ancient texts that would be most useful for judging Mormon's history he wrote would likely be from his era. Yet the mesoAmerican texts we have are typically quite late. Everything else was destroyed by the Spanish. Instead we have very late summaries often given through an interpretive filter of Spanish missionaries or priests. That makes it hard to pick out what's a Spanish interpretation or distortion. Also we don't have a great idea about the literary style such as "jumping around" in terms of time.

Edited October 19, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

As has sometimes been pointed out before, bread and water, oil, handkerchiefs, money, buildings, articles of clothing and tokens, etc. have been presented or consecrated to the Lord for Him to sanctify for some holy purpose (and they are all turn out to be practical purposes, depending on how spiritual one is!).

That's different from what Taves postulates though. I'd have to check but I think she raises the Catholic view of the sacrament that was interpreted in more platonic terms. However ultimately that's not really a great example since we'd want to make a distinction between an essence and an object.

As I mentioned the better parallel is astral objects, especially as conceived of in the more esoteric tradition of the 18th century. I confess that most I know of this is more late 19th century with the rise of English Spiritualism. So it becomes an issue in the Godbeite tradition in Utah and indirectly affects Utah Mormon folk traditions. Some postulate these ideas could have come to Joseph via masonry but I'm more skeptical I confess. While there's tons of stuff from 1850 onward, for the period of 1830 and before I've not found much. 

The better parallel might be theurgical platonism (i.e. Iamblichus) which was available at Joseph's time via translations by Thomas Taylor. There are some phrase similarities people have brought up between early LDS writings and theurgical works. It's theurgical platonism that might be the source for the term telestial for instance - although that's pretty speculative. (Taylor's translation uses  telestic for referring to the theurgical practices from the human level of existence to reach the higher realities) In theurgical platonism purification rites lead one to the heavenly realms (although how this was interpreted varied). The telestic rites often used music or images to receive a god. (God meaning something far more abstract to a platonist) However this was the use of physical symbols (music, smoke, spices, statues) to bring down the higher reality. It wasn't as such seeing the higher realities and making a copy.

So while I don't claim in the least to have done a thorough study, I'll confess I don't see much that makes me think there's a good example of what Taves postulates Joseph did.

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You may well disagree with her and think she is totally wrong but not on the assumption that somehow it is a harebrained theory.

So apologetics needs to catch up with Mormon studies which affirms at least the validity of Taves' approach.

Mormon studies says "Yes, Taves has a reasonable position worthy of publication" while Cartesianism- with the appearance reality distinction sees it as "calling Joseph a liar"

So I am by no means saying that "Taves is right"- just that she has a reasonable position to be considered.

I'm not sure it's harebrained. I think it'd be a stronger position if she could find better parallels. Certainly in the image/form distinction of platonism in theory one could do it. After all you could argue that Plato's theory of art does something quite similar. Heaven knows there was a platonic tradition in Europe even during modernism.

I think saying it's possible is different from establishing it as likely that Joseph did that. I just don't see a lot of evidence for that. I'd think the fraud model far, far more likely than Taves' model. That is unless she can find better quotes that would suggest Joseph knew of this idea and would have found it acceptable.

I think there are huge social incentives for Mormon Studies to like this model since it avoids controversial debates about religious truth and provides a way of talking about the subject without ascribing motives. (I think that a bit circular and problematic, but I also recognize it's a starting position for contemporary religious studies in the academy)

Edited October 19, 2017 by clarkgoble

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

IE: Created by man and offered to the Lord to be made holy!

I think you have found the pattern shown by the book itself! Exciting stuff!

So we have examples of things manufactured by mortal human hands and touched by the finger of God to bring about His purposes, whether he endows them with meaning, intelligence or other kinds of power (to heal, to light, etc.). And we have God stimulating the imagination of mortal human beings to manufacture such things “according to the pattern given by the finger of God.”

Do we have examples where, not things, but rather ideas are "manufactured" by mortal minds and then touched by the finger of God to be made holy, or to be made His own – does He co-opt or appropriate ideas from a lesser intelligence as they exercise their agency in faith to do or make or think of something outside His expectation? Is the brother of Jared’s faith to see the finger of God an example of this? Is D&C 56:26-18 another example? To me that speaks to a very humble, yet amazingly self-assured God!

I think the trick is to become as humble and self-assured as God, and help others to become the same, no matter what we believe. Within the parameters of the covenants He has restored and  revealed, of course…

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That's different from what Taves postulates though. I'd have to check but I think she raises the Catholic view of the sacrament that was interpreted in more platonic terms. However ultimately that's not really a great example since we'd want to make a distinction between an essence and an object.

As I mentioned the better parallel is astral objects, especially as conceived of in the more esoteric tradition of the 18th century. I confess that most I know of this is more late 19th century with the rise of English Spiritualism. So it becomes an issue in the Godbeite tradition in Utah and indirectly affects Utah Mormon folk traditions. Some postulate these ideas could have come to Joseph via masonry but I'm more skeptical I confess. While there's tons of stuff from 1850 onward, for the period of 1830 and before I've not found much. 

The better parallel might be theurgical platonism (i.e. Iamblichus) which was available at Joseph's time via translations by Thomas Taylor. There are some phrase similarities people have brought up between early LDS writings and theurgical works. It's theurgical platonism that might be the source for the term telestial for instance - although that's pretty speculative. (Taylor's translation uses  telestic for referring to the theurgical practices from the human level of existence to reach the higher realities) In theurgical platonism purification rites lead one to the heavenly realms (although how this was interpreted varied). The telestic rites often used music or images to receive a god. (God meaning something far more abstract to a platonist) However this was the use of physical symbols (music, smoke, spices, statues) to bring down the higher reality. It wasn't as such seeing the higher realities and making a copy.

So while I don't claim in the least to have done a thorough study, I'll confess I don't see much that makes me think there's a good example of what Taves postulates Joseph did.

No, she didn’t postulate that – I’ve been on a tangent for a few pages now LOL

But I originally posted that I would conceptualize Joseph’s work as virtual reality using the “magical” technology of his day in that he was “seeing things that are not” and having “the audacity to say that they are” by virtually transmitting the message or contents of a record engraved on plates in one time period into the present through a facsimile or virtual medium consisting of plates he made.

He was told there were plates, what they contained, where they were, and what to do with them and when; if his problem was getting and translating them, he found a solution through the measures Taves suggests. Why would he have a problem unless the plates weren’t where the angel said they were (they were stolen) or he lost them (whether a consequence of youthful curiosity, or temptation just as forewarned)? A solution might be for him to make replacement plates (the son of Egyptus did something similar by imitating the patriarchal order) and beg God to call it good. All in good faith, of course.

[clarkgoble]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

No, she didn’t postulate that – I’ve been on a tangent for a few pages now LOL

I just checked to be sure and she did.

"As such his representation of the plates, placed under the cloth or in the box, can be understood as representing or even co-creating the reality of the plates along a continuum of possibilities, ranging from the way a crucifix represents the crucifixion, an Eastern Orthodox icon is said to manifest the reality of the saint it depicts, the way Eucharistic wafers are thought to be transformed into the literal body of Christ, or the way that Mary “created” Jesus in her womb. As such, what I am construing as Smith’s actions in creating plates would have analogues in other Christian “materializations” of the sacred."

Quote

But I originally posted that I would conceptualize Joseph’s work as virtual reality using the “magical” technology of his day in that he was “seeing things that are not” and having “the audacity to say that they are” by virtually transmitting the message or contents of a record engraved on plates in one time period into the present through a facsimile or virtual medium consisting of plates he made.

The problem with this is that the translation would do that without the need for plates as image of this spiritual reality. Indeed there are several accounts that Joseph was able to use the U&T or seer stone to translate the plates when they weren't near. If he could do that, why did he need to make the plates to translate them? The only reason would seem to be to convince others. It's pretty hard not to see that as fraud. Further, if he had made such plates, why not present them to the people who clearly saw a vision. Taves' model really makes many things harder to explain rather than easier.

Quote

He was told there were plates, what they contained, where they were, and what to do with them and when; if his problem was getting and translating them, he found a solution through the measures Taves suggests. Why would he have a problem unless the plates weren’t where the angel said they were (they were stolen) or he lost them (whether a consequence of youthful curiosity, or temptation just as forewarned)? A solution might be for him to make replacement plates (the son of Egyptus did something similar by imitating the patriarchal order) and beg God to call it good. All in good faith, of course.

The problem of course is when any "image" entails a copy, then we quickly are let loose with a pretty problematic logic. Everything signifies everything. It's hard to limit our discussion to what is plausible. (This is a rather common problem in this aspect of platonism I should note particularly in the Renaissance - it's this problem that leads Umberto Eco to the fantastic parody of the problem in Foucault's Pendulum.)

At a certain level of speculation we're so disconnected from evidence it becomes problematic. I mean when you're more speculative than the Mormon apologists defending angels and Nephites I think we've reached a problematic level of speculation. At least the apologists can appeal to what many people claimed after all. Taves requires dismissing claims but can't find a single contemporary claim for her model.

Edited October 19, 2017 by clarkgoble

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

It's not that late - 15 years. Although clearly it's not contemporary. There's also the Henry Caswall reporting of an interview with Lucy Smith in City of the Mormons from 1843. So a different account from a few years earlier. 

"I have myself seen and handled the golden plates; they are about eight inches long, and six wide; some of them are sealed together and are not to be opened, and some of them are loose. They are all connected by a ring which passes through a hole at the end of each plate, and are covered with letters beautifully engraved. I have seen and felt also the Urim and Thummim. They resemble two large bright diamonds set in a bow like a pair of spectacles. My son puts these over his eyes when he reads unknown languages, and they enable him to interpret them in English. I have likewise carried in my hands the sacred breastplate. It is composed of pure gold, and is made to fit the breast very exactly."

So far as I know we don't have any other witness of the breastplate that's in a reasonable time frame. There is the very late William Smith account but that was decades later when he was in his 80's and so probably isn't too trustworthy and it's hard to tell what he saw versus what he'd been told. That's the interview of him in 1891 in The Rod of Iron.

Among other things we inquired minutely about the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. We asked him what was meant by the expression "two rims of a bow," which held the former. He said a double silver bow was twisted into the shape of the figure eight, and the two stones were placed literally between the two rims of a bow. At one end was attached a rod which was connected with the outer edge of the right shoulder of the breast-plate. By pressing the head a little forward, the rod held the Urim and Thummim before the eyes much like a pair of spectacles. A pocket was prepared in the breastplate on the left side, immediately over the heart. When not in use the Urim and Thummim was placed in this pocket, the rod being of just the right length to allow it to be so deposited. This instrument could, however, be detached from the breastplate and his brother said Joseph often wore it detached when away from home, but always used it in connection with the breastplate when receiving official communications, and usually so when translating as it permitted him to have both hands free to hold the plates.

I'm not sure this is comparable to Bigfoot accounts since those claiming to see Bigfoot see him at a distance and not as something handled over time and in their presence. Certainly some skepticism is in order. There's fewer accounts than say for the plates themselves or the interpreters.

Thanks Clark for adding the William Smith reminiscence, I don't recall reading that one before, and I appreciate it.  It sounds like in some ways he's borrowing from other descriptions, but then when he talks about the breastplate being detached from the Urim and Thummin, it sounds like he's describing something he's seen, one question I have is whether William was even around during the translation in order to have any kind of firsthand knowledge about the process.

The descriptions of a breastplate I've never found convincing, and they seem contradictory with other descriptions.  I haven't read into those for a while, but I seem to remember thinking that the breastplate idea was a later developing idea and not in any of the contemporary accounts.  I think the Oliver 1834 history is the first mention of it, but I could be wrong.  

[clarkgoble]

11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The descriptions of a breastplate I've never found convincing, and they seem contradictory with other descriptions.  I haven't read into those for a while, but I seem to remember thinking that the breastplate idea was a later developing idea and not in any of the contemporary accounts.  I think the Oliver 1834 history is the first mention of it, but I could be wrong.  

It's in hostile news accounts in 1830.

"Now the rest of the acts of the magician [Walters], how his mantle fell upon the prophet Jo. Smith Jun. and how Jo. made a league with the spirit, who afterwards turned out to be an angel, and how he obtained the “Gold Bible,” Spectacles, and breast plate–will they not be faithfully recorded in the book of Pukei?" (2 June 1830)

"BOOK OF PUKEI.—Chap. 2. Contents.—....8 spectacles-breastplate-Oliver, &c....[Joseph] art chosen to interpret the book, which Mormon has written, to wit, the gold Bible? 8. “And lo! I answered the spirit of the money diggers saying, how can these things be, as I can neither read nor write? And he said unto me” ‘I will give thee a breast plate, to keep thee from evil, and I will send thee an assistant, even Oliver, the pedagogue.’" (7 July 1830)

I had thought it was in one of the Harris accounts (either direct or paraphrased by media) as well but I can't seem to find it. So I might be misrembering.

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I just checked to be sure and she did.

"As such his representation of the plates, placed under the cloth or in the box, can be understood as representing or even co-creating the reality of the plates along a continuum of possibilities, ranging from the way a crucifix represents the crucifixion, an Eastern Orthodox icon is said to manifest the reality of the saint it depicts, the way Eucharistic wafers are thought to be transformed into the literal body of Christ, or the way that Mary “created” Jesus in her womb. As such, what I am construing as Smith’s actions in creating plates would have analogues in other Christian “materializations” of the sacred."

The problem with this is that the translation would do that without the need for plates as image of this spiritual reality. Indeed there are several accounts that Joseph was able to use the U&T or seer stone to translate the plates when they weren't near. If he could do that, why did he need to make the plates to translate them? The only reason would seem to be to convince others. It's pretty hard not to see that as fraud. Further, if he had made such plates, why not present them to the people who clearly saw a vision. Taves' model really makes many things harder to explain rather than easier.

The problem of course is when any "image" entails a copy, then we quickly are let loose with a pretty problematic logic. Everything signifies everything. It's hard to limit our discussion to what is plausible. (This is a rather common problem in this aspect of platonism I should note particularly in the Renaissance - it's this problem that leads Umberto Eco to the fantastic parody of the problem in Foucault's Pendulum.)

At a certain level of speculation we're so disconnected from evidence it becomes problematic. I mean when you're more speculative than the Mormon apologists defending angels and Nephites I think we've reached a problematic level of speculation. At least the apologists can appeal to what many people claimed after all. Taves requires dismissing claims but can't find a single contemporary claim for her model.

When I said, “No, she didn’t postulate that…” I was agreeing with you; I'm using “that” as a determiner to reference my ideas and not hers (or yours), and explaining that I’ve been on a tangent.

That there are better ways to do things doesn’t obviate that they were done in a manner that leaves us with less explicable or defensible results. Now I’m neither critiquing nor endorsing her model, only answering the OP as a thought experiment on “how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates.” And in the process, finding some ancillary things of interest (to me) about how mortals and God work together.

Hence the reality of the plates could be seen as a form of virtual reality by someone who thinks Joseph made the ones he carried about and that he was a bonafide prophet of God.