Standing before an Apostle does, at a meeting

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Sounds like more evidence of Bednar's relationship with his wife, which I lost a lot of respect for after watching that devotional video a couple years back.  I'm not a fan of Bednar at all, and feel sorry for his wife, and hope he never makes the presidency.  

 

 

So we don't have to watch the whole thing, can you provide a brief transcription to show what you're talking about? Or at least a time location in the video?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There is a wide territory between respecting authority and worshiping it. Frankly, I've never seen an instance of the latter in the Church of Jesus Christ.

Then I guess you walk around with blinders on.  I saw authority worship first hand growing up, in the ward and stake, where a number of G.A.'s and Apostles resided.  I think others would admit it too. 

[Amulek]

17 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I'm familiar with the argument regarding office v. man.  Nevertheless, it seems too militaristic for me.  It also contributes to authority worship which I believe should be reduced whenever possible.

I think it contributes to learning good manners, which I think should be encouraged whenever possible. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Then I guess you walk around with blinders on.  I saw authority worship first hand growing up, in the ward and stake, where a number of G.A.'s and Apostles resided.  I think others would admit it too. 

It may be an eye-of-the-beholder sort of thing. 

But no, I don't have blinders on.

[smac97]

On 9/15/2017 at 8:45 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

When the "respect" of standing for an authority is mandated, it really only shows compliance and obedience.

Standing for a General Authority is not, AFAICS, "mandated" (as in "Mandate: an authoritative order or command").  If you disagree, then CFR, please.

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If people felt that kind of respect they would do it without being told.

I disagree.  A person may feel respect for a General Authority, but may not be aware of the traditional demonstration of that respect (standing when they enter the room).

I have seen this many, many times in a courtroom.  Just last week I was in court with a pro se litigant.  When the judge entered, the bailiff called "All rise!", which is a standard protocol in courts in Utah (both state and federal).  I noticed that the pro se litigant was clearly surprised, as she had to scramble to stand up, and also whispered to her daughter, seated next to her, to stand up as well.

I don't think this lady felt obligated, by force of law or fear of punishment, to stand.  She did so because everyone else was doing so.  And everyone else was doing so as a token of respect and deference to the judge in his capacity as a judge.

After a few minutes, we took a brief recess.  The judge stood up, and as soon as that happened, the pro se litigant did so as well.  Then, after the recess, the judge re-entered, and the litigant again stood up.  Again, she was not threatened or forced to do so.  She just did so because it is a standard formality and token of deference and respect.

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They wouldn't be chastised by the authority if they didn't heed the custom.

So which is it?  A "mandate" or a "custom"?

Ignoring a longstanding customary token of respect is, itself, potentially a token of something else.  Of disrespect.  Of contempt (much like that contempt toward General Authorities which is being demonstrated in this very thread).  Or it may be an utterly innocuous error.  So a stake president reminding people of the custom seems to be a good thing.

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I remember being at a meeting of bishops and SP's where apostles presided. We  were required to be in our seats early. Fine.

Why is that "fine"?  Isn't being there early also a demonstration of respect and decorum?

As long as we're at it, what were the bishops and stake presidents wearing at this meeting?  Were any of them in pajamas?  Swimming suits?  Halloween costumes?  Or did they, per custom and common sense, dress appropriately for the meeting (in suits)?  If so, isn't that a demonstration of respect and decorum?

Also, did any of the participants in this meeting bring snacks?  A bag of chips and a can of soda, perhaps?  I suspect not, as this would be a breach of custom, courtesy, and just plain common sense.  It would also be seen (correctly) as quite disrespectful and contemptuous.

Also, did any of the participants let their phones ring during the meeting?  Or did they answer a call and chat away at full voice while remaining in the body of participants at the meeting?  Again, I doubt it.  Observance of basic customs and courtesies is part of what makes our society civil.

So I assume you do not object to the foregoing customs and formalities.  An expectation to arrive at a meeting on time is not unreasonable.  An expectation for bishops and stake presidents to dress in suits when participating in a formal ecclesiastical meeting with an apostle is not unreasonable.  The expectation for participants to abstain from eating snacks during the meeting, or from taking calls and chatting during such a meeting is not unreasonable.  

And yet an extremely brief token of respect, standing when a General Authority arrives, is, in your view, unreasonable?  Why?  What differentiates that custom from any of the ones above?

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Then the apostle would enter and we would all stand. For some reason the apostle needed the adoration of making an entrance.

Oh, malarky.  The apostle has to observe the custom, too.

My sister's father-in-law is a General Authority, a Seventy.  Last fall he came to our ward because he was in town and because my son was giving a talk prior to serving a mission.  Prior to the meeting he went up on the stand and spoke with the bishop.  He explained, in apologetic tones, that the protocol is for him, as a General Authority, to sit on the stand because he is presiding.  He also said that he would prefer to sit with his wife in the pews, as he very rarely gets that opportunity.

So I dispute your absurd characterization that General Authorities feel some "need" for "adoration."  Part of the custom places obligations on them as well.

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It bothered me at the time even though I was extremely TBM.

But why?  You apparently have no qualms with other token demonstrations of respect and decorum (arriving on time to a meeting, for example), so what is so horrible about this custom?

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This happened with 3 different apostles on 3 different occasions so it must be a systemic thing and not merely the personal preference of an individual apostle.

I agree.  So we can dispense with silly criticisms like "For some reason the apostle needed the adoration of making an entrance."

The custom is there.  It is longstanding.  To not observe it would be problematic.

I recall an incident when I was in the MTC.  I was in an overflow room with many hundreds of other missionaries.  Elder Oaks was in the main room and was to give a talk, which was to be broadcast to our room.  We were all sitting there chatting when Elder Oaks suddenly walked in.  As you might expect, those missionaries who saw him immediate stood up, which started to create a rippling wave effect across the assembly.  However, Elder Oaks motioned for us to sit, saying something like "No, no, please keep your seats.  Have a seat, please.  I just wanted to poke my head in and say hello, that I am very happy to be here, and that I love you."  He then waved, smiled as we waved back, then he turned around and walked out.

It was, for me, a nice experience.  Clearly he had no "need" for "adoration," or for "making an entrance."  He did, however, observe the custom when he returned to the main hall (as we saw in the video feed).

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Should the bishop be the last to enter Sacrament meeting and should we stand when he enters?

There is no such custom in the Church.

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It would be silly and overly worshipful of a position.

I disagree.  If you ever participate in a legal proceeding in a courtroom, you will likewise be expected to stand when the judge enters.  That's not "worship."  It's just a courtesy, a token of respect for the position the judge holds and the institution in which he holds it.

I have seen instances where someone is so full of arrogance and/or contempt for the court that they refuse to observe the custom of standing for the judge.  That says very little about the judge, but volumes about the individual.

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I see no difference based on the leadership calling, whether it be bishop, SP, 70, apostle or prophet.

I see differences.  The "General" in "General Authority" matters.

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When Jesus enters, I'll kneel because it's Him.

Why will you do that?

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Not because I'm supposed to show proper respect to a "position".

Yes, I see that.  "Proper respect" is plainly not in evidence.

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ETA- IIRC a priesthood leader is a servant of the people, not the king, right? We should get away from every practice that treats leaders as superior

You seem to be rather arbitrary in which customs and conventions you observe, and which you do not.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 16, 2017 by smac97

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I'm familiar with the argument regarding office v. man.  Nevertheless, it seems too militaristic for me. 

"Militaristic"?  How so?  We don't salute General Authorities, after all.

And what about standing when a judge enters the courtroom?  Do you likewise object to that?

33 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

It also contributes to authority worship which I believe should be reduced whenever possible.

I think standing for a General Authority is a de minimis kind of thing.

What are your thoughts about the practice in my stake of having all participants stand when the person under discipline enters the room?  Do you object to that?  Do you think such a custom is "worship" of the person under discipline?  Should that token gesture be eliminated, in your view?  If so, why?

Thanks,

-Smac

[MiserereNobis]

In Catholicism, we're supposed to kneel and kiss the bishop's ring. If he is your bishop, then it's the right knee. If he's not your bishop, then the left knee.

As usual, we're one up on you Mormons 

Most people don't do this anymore, but I go to a traditional parish where all of these sorts of things are still practiced.

P.S. Oh, and we kiss the priest's hands, too. Lots of kissing of things in Catholicism. Italian influence I imagine...

Edited September 15, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've never seen an apostle demand that everyone in the room stand when he enters, so I don't know where you're getting this idea about arrogance going both ways.

And yes, the sanctity of the apostolic office, indicative of the great trust the Lord has imposed in the man so called, makes him deserving of respect.

Scott....no one here will be surprised at where you fall on the hero worship scale regarding the Apostles.  You have every right to be there too and I'm not going to argue that with you.

However, I am also entitled to my feelings and opinions.  I believe every person has to earn real, genuine, heart felt respect and that includes the Apostles.

Edited September 15, 2017 by ALarson

[Pete Ahlstrom]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've never seen an apostle demand that everyone in the room stand when he enters, so I don't know where you're getting this idea about arrogance going both ways.

And yes, the sanctity of the apostolic office, indicative of the great trust the Lord has imposed in the man so called, makes him deserving of respect.

When I was down in Brazil on my mission Apostle Ballard made a big stink when Brazilians didn't stand for him as he entered the conference.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

When I was down in Brazil on my mission Apostle Ballard made a big stink when Brazilians didn't stand for him as he entered the conference.

Uh oh.  Boundary maintenance is a common issue in some foreign lands.  They often are treated as if they don't do things the way of the states, they are less faithful and all that. 

[Duncan]

http://www.manitobalg.ca/inquiries-protocol/guidelines-for-hosting-the-lieutenant-governor/

 

We have this position in Canada. they have rules for conduct and what to call them, standing when they enter and all that. Funnily enough I met a Lt. Governor some years ago when I was standing in line at a store and they and some others came in but they didn't make an announcement or anything and said nothing as far as I know so I guess you stand for them on certain ocassions and same with Judges, you stand for them when they enter the court but when they walk into Mcdonalds, it's a different story. I have no idea what is going on in our Stake but seriously for like 2-3 years we've been getting General Authority or Area Authority visitors for all of our stake conferences and special meetings and that sort fo thing. None were Apostles but none of them we had to stand when they came into the room, I gather it's an Apostle custom?

[ALarson]

54 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I think it contributes to learning good manners, which I think should be encouraged whenever possible. 

So it's because of "good manners" that we should stand for an Apostle?  Would he do the same (stand)  for anyone else entering the room after him to show his good manners?

 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Uh oh.  Boundary maintenance is a common issue in some foreign lands.  They often are treated as if they don't do things the way of the states, they are less faithful and all that. 

There was that undercurrent of distrust/jealousy of slc leaders.  Calling local leaders to higher positions was a good move.  Maybe a Brazilian will be an apostle some day and they will not only stand but they will jump whenever he enters.

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Sounds like more evidence of Bednar's relationship with his wife, which I lost a lot of respect for after watching that devotional video a couple years back.  I'm not a fan of Bednar at all, and feel sorry for his wife, and hope he never makes the presidency.  

I've heard many voice this same opinion (and some are very staunch TBM members).  I have to admit that most of the stories I"ve heard (referenced as anecdotal earlier) are about him.

The stories about him giving an Apostolic blessing to a congregation and then later revoking it is a bit weird too, IMO (if we can believe the accounts, but I've read it from several who apparently witnessed it).

[ksfisher]

Perhaps standing when a prophet or apostle enters the room signifies our respect for He whom they represent.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

46 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Militaristic"?  How so?  We don't salute General Authorities, after all.

And what about standing when a judge enters the courtroom?  Do you likewise object to that?

I think standing for a General Authority is a de minimis kind of thing.

What are your thoughts about the practice in my stake of having all participants stand when the person under discipline enters the room?  Do you object to that?  Do you think such a custom is "worship" of the person under discipline?  Should that token gesture be eliminated, in your view?  If so, why?

Thanks,

-Smac

Militaristic as in standing at attention.  I don't like the tradition of standing for judges either.  As for standing for the accused at the start of ministry of love proceedings, I don't have a problem with that.

[strappinglad]

Men used to rise when a woman entered the room. No need for that any more. At funerals where I live we all stand as the casket and the close family enter the room. Such needless hero worship !

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I've heard many voice this same opinion (and some are very staunch TBM members).  I have to admit that most of the stories I"ve heard (referenced as anecdotal earlier) are about him.

The stories about him giving an Apostolic blessing to a congregation and then later revoking it is a bit weird too, IMO (if we can believe the accounts, but I've read it from several who apparently witnessed it).

I admit, I struggle with respecting Bednar.  He's a tough one.  But his pickle story was so cute. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by stemelbow

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps standing when a prophet or apostle enters the room signifies our respect for He whom they represent.

Do you believe they represent Christ or God in their lives more than each of us should?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps standing when a prophet or apostle enters the room signifies our respect for He whom they represent.

Perhaps from the perspective of the governing class.  However, from the perspective of the governed, it seems like it is to promote obedience to authority, to maybe make the questioner reflect, ever so slightly, on questioning authority.  I don't think it is necessary.  If one wants respect, earn it with what is said and done.  I, an apostate, will listen to them if they have something good to say, but won't when what they say is questionable.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Then I guess you walk around with blinders on.  I saw authority worship first hand growing up, in the ward and stake, where a number of G.A.'s and Apostles resided.  I think others would admit it too. 

I think Scott's statement about never seeing this happen, is similar to the Dan Peterson blog post of a week or so ago about there never being any valid criticisms of the church.  This idea is rooted, not in objective observable reality, but in the subjective views of his position of loyalty to the institution.  

[Pete Ahlstrom]

13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think Scott's statement about never seeing this happen, is similar to the Dan Peterson blog post of a week or so ago about there never being any valid criticisms of the church.  This idea is rooted, not in objective observable reality, but in the subjective views of his position of loyalty to the institution.  

Well, they both earn their living from that institution too. So, there's that.

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Militaristic as in standing at attention. 

The comparison is not apt.  At all.  We don't "stand at attention" for General Authorities.  We stand up for a few moments when they enter, then sit down again.  That's it.

It's not "militaristic" when I, as an attorney, stand when the judge enters the courtroom, either.

27 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't like the tradition of standing for judges either. 

Why?

27 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

As for standing for the accused at the start of ministry of love proceedings, I don't have a problem with that.

Why not?  Why is a person undergoing church discipline worthy of your demonstration of basic respect, but judges and General Authorities are not?

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

8 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Well, they both earn their living from that institution too. So, there's that.

Yes, good point, that adds new meaning to the phrase, put your money where your mouth is.  

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When I was little, my parents taught me that after sacrament meeting we should wait until the bishop stands before we stand. I'm fairly sure that was common practice back then. I guess it has gone away.

Along with most of the respect for positions of authority.
People are rarely willing to respect someone for the office they hold/held any more.