Casting out Fear

[stemelbow]

Hopefully many of you remember President Uchtdorf's talk last conference wherein he objects to fear being our motivation.  because its "temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father."

I don't know about "never".  When people speak in absolutes on these things I grow skeptical.  But I guess we'll see.

Consider:

Quote

Experts in marketing understand the power of fear and often employ it. This is why some advertisements seem to carry the implicit message that if we fail to buy their breakfast cereal or miss out on the newest video game or cell phone, we run the risk of living a miserable life, dying alone and unhappy.

What gets me in this speech is he doesn't really address fear as used in scripture as a tool to get us to conform.  Nor fear as a tool used, over our many years, within the Church.  This quote was interesting because I thought of how fear is used in the Church to preach unto us, to keep us in line and all of that.  Fear it seems to me to be the main tool used in the Church, but I may be wrong, particularly in the last 20 years or so. 

From God's don't eat of the fruit, to using stoning or other methods to punish and kill those who got out of line, to spewing the luke warm out of his mouth, to destroying whole nations and communities, to the end of the world will kill the unbelieving, to Joseph and Brigham's use of damnation for those who choose not to marry, to Miracle of Forgivenesses use of fear to families about those who have sex before marriage, or those women who don't die trying to fight of sexual attacks...etc.  All that kind of stuff.

How would we avoid fear as a tool?  I was sittign with my kids, while my wife was out last night, musing on this talk, when I noticed them climbing up on the counters, and jumping off into a pillowy pile.  Wife wouldn't hear of such stuff in case something was broken, but I'm kinda lax.  So I thought I'd try fear.  I told them to get down now or I'll spank 'em hard, with a gruff demeanor.  They ignored and kept playing.  I shrugged and kept reading.  Wife got home and yelped at them to get down and they jumped down, cleaned up and stood at her attention immediately.  I've never cracked into the use of fear.  My wife was raised on it and she tends to come off as pretty rough when it comes to rules and discipline.  I admit, her demeanor and method works better in keeping the kids in line, but I giggle too much and tend to be too playful for them to take it seriously. 

Anyway, isn't fear a useful tool in some circumstances.  Doesn't fear work in a religious setting, even if it is unethical or manipulative otherwise?

 

Edited to add:  Sorry I noticed I didn't link his talk:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/perfect-love-casteth-out-fear?lang=eng

Edited August 24, 2017 by stemelbow

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Hopefully many of you remember President Uchtdorf's talk last conference wherein he objects to fear being our motivation.  because its "temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father."

I don't know about "never".  When people speak in absolutes on these things I grow skeptical.  But I guess we'll see.

Consider:

What gets me in this speech is he doesn't really address fear as used in scripture as a tool to get us to conform.  Nor fear as a tool used, over our many years, within the Church.  This quote was interesting because I thought of how fear is used in the Church to preach unto us, to keep us in line and all of that.  Fear it seems to me to be the main tool used in the Church, but I may be wrong, particularly in the last 20 years or so. 

From God's don't eat of the fruit, to using stoning or other methods to punish and kill those who got out of line, to spewing the luke warm out of his mouth, to destroying whole nations and communities, to the end of the world will kill the unbelieving, to Joseph and Brigham's use of damnation for those who choose not to marry, to Miracle of Forgivenesses use of fear to families about those who have sex before marriage, or those women who don't die trying to fight of sexual attacks...etc.  All that kind of stuff.

How would we avoid fear as a tool?  I was sittign with my kids, while my wife was out last night, musing on this talk, when I noticed them climbing up on the counters, and jumping off into a pillowy pile.  Wife wouldn't hear of such stuff in case something was broken, but I'm kinda lax.  So I thought I'd try fear.  I told them to get down now or I'll spank 'em hard, with a gruff demeanor.  They ignored and kept playing.  I shrugged and kept reading.  Wife got home and yelped at them to get down and they jumped down, cleaned up and stood at her attention immediately.  I've never cracked into the use of fear.  My wife was raised on it and she tends to come off as pretty rough when it comes to rules and discipline.  I admit, her demeanor and method works better in keeping the kids in line, but I giggle too much and tend to be too playful for them to take it seriously. 

Anyway, isn't fear a useful tool in some circumstances.  Doesn't fear work in a religious setting, even if it is unethical or manipulative otherwise?

I think there's a difference between using fear and pointing out the negative consequences of a persons actions. 

How many people would be smoking today who don't if they weren't afraid of the consequences. 

There are many times in the scriptures when the negative consequences, oftentimes eternal, are pointed out.  This seems appropriate as a person who makes a covenant to keep the Lord's commandments should understand the consequences (as well as the rewards) involved.

But I do agree with President Uchtdorf.  I believe that while fear can be a deterrent in helping a person not break a commandment, it is love that motivates us to do good.

 

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I think there's a difference between using fear and pointing out the negative consequences of a persons actions. 

How many people would be smoking today who don't if they weren't afraid of the consequences. 

So either people don't smoke because of the fear of getting cancer and other negative consequences or they don't because they want to be healthy.  Right?  Should we preach no smoking because we preach good health, or because we preach cancer may come? 

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

There are many times in the scriptures when the negative consequences, oftentimes eternal, are pointed out.  This seems appropriate as a person who makes a covenant to keep the Lord's commandments should understand the consequences (as well as the rewards) involved.

But I do agree with President Uchtdorf.  I believe that while fear can be a deterrent in helping a person not break a commandment, it is love that motivates us to do good.

 

Where did President Uchtdorf say that? 

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Should we preach no smoking because we preach good health, or because we preach cancer may come? 

 

They are two sides of the same coin. 

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

Where did President Uchtdorf say that? 

Where did he say what?  I wrote that I agree with President Uchtdorf and then wrote another sentence that expressed what I believe.

[pogi]

I don't think that Uchtdorf is saying that fear never has a place as a motivational tool.  I think he is objecting to its use as a primary form of motivation in relation to living the gospel.  He is objecting to fear based people and life-styles.   The scriptures tend to use 3 forms of motivation that I can see - fear, duty, and love (good, better, and best).  Pres. Uchtdorf is right, fear is "temporary and shallow", and will never lead to a deep conversion to the gospel of love.  Fear can be a primer for some, to help them understand the consequences of actions.  Hopefully their motivation to obey evolves as they understand and gain a sense of duty, with love being the ultimate goal.  Our reasons for obedience is progressive. Uchtdorf is rightly urging us to progress (if we are stuck) from a fear based approach to a love based approach.  

[Guest]

Fear is indeed used in other Churches as a primary conversion tactic, and we (LDS) are human and can be found doing the same. In scripture it is true that a number of Apostles use the fear of Hell, but it is balanced with the promise of reward. In fact, more in favor of reward and blessings. Growing up in another Faith, fear was a major arsenal, made possible by scripture mining to string together a large series of scriptures out of context. Even more so on the young, as the older people get they are supposed to increase in wisdom, which most do. 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Anyway, isn't fear a useful tool in some circumstances.  Doesn't fear work in a religious setting, even if it is unethical or manipulative otherwise?

Edited to add:  Sorry I noticed I didn't link his talk:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/perfect-love-casteth-out-fear?lang=eng

How do you go about living with joy, humility, hope, and a bold confidence that the Lord is with you while feeding upon your fears and imposing them on others?

[stemelbow]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How do you go about living with joy, humility, hope, and a bold confidence that the Lord is with you while feeding upon your fears and imposing them on others?

How do I do what?  Who says I do? 

[rpn]

God's way doesn't include frightening them.  And that is because fright doesn't change hearts or disposition, which is required to freely choose the right thing.

[hagoth7]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Hopefully many of you remember President Uchtdorf's talk last conference wherein he objects to fear being our motivation.  because its "temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father."

...Anyway, isn't fear a useful tool in some circumstances.  Doesn't fear work in a religious setting, even if it is unethical or manipulative otherwise?

Hinges on what you want to accomplish.

If you want temporary obedience, fear *can* work for the briefest of moments.

But won't instill lasting positive change in the nature of the listener. I believe that instilling lasting change in a person (who then wants to proactively obey God) was the core of President Uchtdorf's message.

I preferred humor to motivate my kids.  Wasn't very effective at prompt behavioral change, but they at least (hopefully) knew without question that they were loved.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Hopefully many of you remember President Uchtdorf's talk last conference wherein he objects to fear being our motivation.  because its "temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father."

I don't know about "never".  When people speak in absolutes on these things I grow skeptical. .............

No absolute statement is absolutely true, including this one.

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What gets me in this speech is he doesn't really address fear as used in scripture as a tool to get us to conform.  Nor fear as a tool used, over our many years, within the Church.  This quote was interesting because I thought of how fear is used in the Church to preach unto us, to keep us in line and all of that.  Fear it seems to me to be the main tool used in the Church, but I may be wrong, particularly in the last 20 years or so. ..............................

How would we avoid fear as a tool?  ......................................

Anyway, isn't fear a useful tool in some circumstances.  Doesn't fear work in a religious setting, even if it is unethical or manipulative otherwise?

.....................................................

I just don't see fear having been used within the LDS faith now or in the past.  I have never heard hell, fire, and brimstone preaching there.  In fact, what the Mormons leaders do seems to be kind of like your method of governing your own children.  

I'm the same:  I tried getting stern a couple of times and was just ignored.  I watched my wife take a belt to our 13 year-old long ago.  He never even flinched, but my wife was crying uncontrollably by the time she finished.  I think that may have been the strongest punishment for him (watching his mother cry).

[JAHS]

It is better to obey the commandments because we fear punishment than not to obey them at all.
But we will be much happier if we obey God because we love Him and want to obey Him. 

It might be more of a progressive thing like how a child learns before he is able to understand things.
We tell him if you touch that stove you will get burned.  We use fear.
As he grows and matures he is able to understand better why he should not touch the stove and he no longer avoids it out of fear,
but out of knowledge and understanding of how things work.
Perhaps in some ways it is the same with the gospel and obeying commandments.

 

 

[RevTestament]

I don't see warning of consequences and fear as the same things. Use of fear is designed to elicit an emotion. Warning of consequences is usually just informative - and can definitely be done with complete love so as to not elicit a fear emotion at all. 

Warning a child that a stove is hot and will burn them is not as I see it in and of itself using fear. Now a parent may do it in such a manner as to cause fear, but I believe I didn't use fear at all. In fact I had a child which just had to test it, and I told him it is very hot and it will hurt, but you can slowly put your hand up and see what I am talking about. I knew of course he would pull back. I think it is a poor parent who does not teach their child of negative consequences before they encounter them. That is not being a leader who uses fear. It is a leader who loves - just like our heavenly Father.

If anything Yeshua taught us not to fear. He taught us the truth so we would not fear the unknown, and could learn to overcome those things which seem to naturally elicit fear.

[strappinglad]

Many of the consequences for sin or error are so far removed in time from the NOW, it is difficult to teach. Step off a cliff and the consequences can be immediate. Smoking  tobacco may not see a consequence for decades. Lying may never see a negative outcome in this life.

[stemelbow]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts here.  Thanks for offering.

It feels to me that we humans are fairly complicated when it comes to the inner-workings of our motivations.  Not one action we do, at least it feels in my case, is due to one motivation.  Fear often plays a part those combination of motivations for me.  I hope I'm not terrible different than everyone else.  I don't know how I"d escape it.  So in the end, the talk feels shallow, unobservant and nearly useless in that sense. 

I do remember and interesting sitch in which this teaching applies well.  Going on a mission.  I don't know if the fear tactic is ever more pervasive then what is used on missionaries.  Perhaps it is a fleeting or temporary means, as we learn many missionaries leave the Church after getting done with their missions.  For missionaries we have to push past that very shallow tactic of fear the Church uses in order for us to get back on the road to a more mature faith.  Many don't make it. 

Appreciate the thoughts. 

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

No absolute statement is absolutely true, including this one.

Says Robert absolutely

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I just don't see fear having been used within the LDS faith now or in the past.  I have never heard hell, fire, and brimstone preaching there.  In fact, what the Mormons leaders do seems to be kind of like your method of governing your own children.  

I agree.  We are certainly no where near the fear preaching of our past. 

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I'm the same:  I tried getting stern a couple of times and was just ignored.  I watched my wife take a belt to our 13 year-old long ago.  He never even flinched, but my wife was crying uncontrollably by the time she finished.  I think that may have been the strongest punishment for him (watching his mother cry).

That is a tough picture, but something very loving involved. 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 8/24/2017 at 10:18 AM, stemelbow said:

  Doesn't fear work in a religious setting, even if it is unethical or manipulative otherwise?

What are yo saying? Fear is the only MO works so well  (at least it used to, I don't think it works well now).