Mosiah 15: 1-5

[snowflake]

Mosiah Chapter 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Here in Mosiah, the BOM states "God himself shall come down among the children of men" (as Jesus). According to what I understand, LDS doctrine states that Jesus is the 1st born spirit being of Heavenly father and Heavenly Mother, and also the spiritual parents of Satan and us. 

 

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Mosiah Chapter 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Here in Mosiah, the BOM states "God himself shall come down among the children of men" (as Jesus). According to what I understand, LDS doctrine states that Jesus is the 1st born spirit being of Heavenly father and Heavenly Mother, and also the spiritual parents of Satan and us. 

 

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

How can he not be? 

There are a couple of ways LDS view this, I think.

1.  Jesus was God before the world was--he is often the one referred to as Jehovah in the Old. 
2.  Jesus being a spirit brother of us and Satan does not mean He was created, in the sense that create means his existence started at some point. 

an additional thought per LDS:

LDS often consider the children of God as gods in embryo if you will. 

[snowflake]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

How can he not be? 

There are a couple of ways LDS view this, I think.

1.  Jesus was God before the world was--he is often the one referred to as Jehovah in the Old. 
2.  Jesus being a spirit brother of us and Satan does not mean He was created, in the sense that create means his existence started at some point. 

an additional thought per LDS:

LDS often consider the children of God as gods in embryo if you will. 

Yes I understand that the children of God are gods in embryo, but the church teaches that Jesus was the firstborn offspring spirit child of Heavenly Father and Mother no? How can he be God before the world was and a spirit offspring?

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, snowflake said:

Yes I understand that the children of God are gods in embryo, but the church teaches that Jesus was the firstborn offspring spirit child of Heavenly Father and Mother no? How can he be God before the world was and a spirit offspring?

That's what God's spirit offspring become.  Jesus had some accelerated path because either:  His volunteering int he grand council helped vault him to that station

or

He was already granted that station because He was like unto God.  We read between the lines in Abraham 3.

 

[snowflake]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

That's what God's spirit offspring become.  Jesus had some accelerated path because either:  His volunteering int he grand council helped vault him to that station

or

He was already granted that station because He was like unto God.  We read between the lines in Abraham 3.

 

I understand that the baby spirit gods (humans) can grow and learn  and become exalted "Gods" someday.

 

18 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

This makes no sense in light of the teaching that Jesus is the first born spirit (god) of Heavenly Father and Mother.

[Gray]

21 minutes ago, snowflake said:

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

This is a strange formulation. Jesus being conceived by the power of God shouldn't make him the Father - that should make him the Son.

The theology is pretty weird, it doesn't match LDS theology, it doesn't fit with the trinity.

 

Quote

And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God

To me it sounds like Jesus' body is the son, and the Father was his spirit. I don't think that's exactly modalism - which is (I think) about God choosing to manifest himself in different forms. This is almost like God taking possession of Jesus' body. Or is it just the Father taking on physical form, and that physicality is called the son?

Maybe it is modalism, and I don't know enough about modalism to recognize it.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Gray

[bluebell]

Jeff Lindsay has some good compilation of answers on his site.

The Relationship Between Us and Christ

He says, in part-

In our premortal existence as spirit sons and daughter of God the Father (there is a reason for that favorite title of His!), Jesus was there, the Firstborn of the Father, one who was like the Father and was one with the Father, though He was yet a spirit and had not yet received His immortal and glorious physical body (a combination of spirit and matter) that He has had since His resurrection (Luke 24: 36-43; Phil. 3:21). Jesus was the greatest of all the spirits and was the Chosen and the Firstborn of God, having special honor and glory from God "before the world was" (John 17:5). The idea that Jesus was the Firstborn is offensive to some, for it seems to imply that He was created by the Father. However, the scriptures clearly indicate that Christ was the Firstborn (see Psalms 89:27; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:5,6; Rev. 3:14 and Heb. 12:23). 

If Christ was the Firstborn of the spirit children of God and we are also spirit children of God, then several scriptural references begin to become more clear and consistent in meaning, such as the scriptures already cited above showing that He is our brother. Further, In Romans 8:14, Paul notes that we become sons of God if we are led by His spirit. Indeed, Paul writes in Heb. 12:9 that God is the Father of our spirits and in Acts 17:28, we read that "we are also his offspring." No one can dispute that Christ is the Son of God. But if we are also in some sense sons and daughters of God, is it so odd to suggest that Christ is then a Brother (in some sense) to us? Yet he is also a Father and Creator, and the title "Brother" is again inadequate, even grossly so.

But there is some common relationship between us and Christ that Paul refers to in Romans 8. Look now at verses 15-18: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Those are heavy words: children, heirs, and joint-heirs with Christ. The relationship strongly implies that we are brothers and sisters to Christ (in some sense), just as Paul goes on to say explicitly in verse 29 (Christ "the firstborn among many brethren.") This common relationship is further emphasized by the words of Christ to Mary, after His resurrection: "Go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17).

But does all this mean that Christ is created, a creature of the Father? To a degree (but not completely, as I note below), the answer may be construed to be yes. Colossians 1:15 notes that Christ "is the firstborn of every creature," yet the next verse again notes Christ's role as the Creator of all things and as "the beginning" (v. 18), for "it pleased that Father than in him should all fullness dwell" (v. 19). This refers back to the premortal glory that the Father gave His chosen and Firstborn Son, who was set apart from us even then and was one with God. Christ could and did represent the Father and was a member of the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost - three beings yet one in purpose and heart. Yet He was born - the Firstborn - and could say of the Father that "my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). 

Hebrews 1:5,6 again notes that Christ was begotten of the Father, a Son; indeed, he was the "firstbegotten [who was brought] into the world" (v. 6). This makes sense if there were other begotten sons and daughters of God, among whom there was one Firstbegotten, even Christ. Finally, Revelation 3:14 says that Christ is "the beginning of the creation of God," though this can be interpreted to mean that Christ began the Creation (true) rather than to imply that He was the first created being. Indeed, I realize that all Bible passages can be interpreted in multiple ways, so please take my interpretations with caution! However, I hope the passages I have cited help to show that Christ and we are sons and daughters of God - and thus related and capable of being joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:14-18). (Again, see Acts 17:28: we are all offspring of God, who, according to Hebrews 12:9, is the Father of our spirits.)

What bothers many people is the idea that Christ and humans are related. Some teach that God and Christ are "wholly other," unrelated to us, and not even part of the same universe or dimension. Many are offended by the LDS concept that Christ is a Brother to us (though much more!) and that we share a common, divine heritage. There is much more that I could say about this and its implications, but I am convinced that this is what the original apostles and disciples of Christ understood and taught. Those concepts became offensive much later when Greek philosophy (Platonic ideals and "forms" and the aversion to matter and tangible existence) dominated the thinking of the scholars of the Church, culminating in the man-made Nicene and Athanasian creeds, centuries after the time of Christ. Some passages for further study include Hebrews 2; Phil. 2:5-12; Heb. 5:8,9; Rom. 5:15; Phil. 3:20-21; and 2 Peter 1: 4-10. (See also my page on the oneness of God.

Note: Being the firstborn does not mean that Christ was entirely created, for LDS theology teaches that all the spirit children of God have at least an aspect of them that is not created but is eternal, that aspect being the "intelligence" which seems to be some root essence of our being or identity (see Abraham chapter 3 in the Pearl of Great Price). Indeed, the concept of free agency only makes sense if some part of us not wholly the creation of God, for if He created everything about us, then is not God responsible for who we are and what we do? But if there is something unique and uncreated about each individual for which God has no responsibility, then it is possible for us to truly have at least the potential for free will. God, the greatest of all intelligences, organized us into spirit children and then provided this mortal existence for our progression and benefit, it being a time in which we could grow and choose Him freely if we desired.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

This is a strange formulation. Jesus being conceived by the power of God shouldn't make him the Father - that should make him the Son.

The theology is pretty weird, it doesn't match LDS theology, it doesn't fit with the trinity.

 

To me it sounds like Jesus' body is the son, and the Father was his spirit. I don't think that's exactly modalism - which is (I think) about God choosing to manifest himself in different forms. This is almost like God taking possession of Jesus' body. Or is it just the Father taking on physical form, and that physicality is called the son?

Maybe it is modalism, and I don't know enough about modalism to recognize it.

I agree.  Mos 15 is fun in a sense, but it doesn't really work well with LDS thought today.  We have to just say "well He's basically like the Father so we can call Him Father but we don't, so...it doesn't really matter but He's like our Father in a sense too".  It's just one of those scriptures we just kind of shrug off. 

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, snowflake said:

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

1. Because he is the Father's representative to us
2. Because he achieved Godhood through his actions
3. Because he who is our elder brother becomes our Father by inheriting us from his Father through his atonement.  He purchased us with his blood.

There is no contradiction here.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

This is a strange formulation. Jesus being conceived by the power of God shouldn't make him the Father - that should make him the Son.

The theology is pretty weird, it doesn't match LDS theology, it doesn't fit with the trinity.

 

To me it sounds like Jesus' body is the son, and the Father was his spirit. I don't think that's exactly modalism - which is (I think) about God choosing to manifest himself in different forms. This is almost like God taking possession of Jesus' body. Or is it just the Father taking on physical form, and that physicality is called the son?

 

This is an interesting article on the topic, from BYU.

Abinadi begins his explanation by reinforcing his earlier statement that Jehovah will come to earth: “I would that ye should understand that God himself [Jehovah] shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people” (Mosiah 15:1). Then he explains that Jehovah will subject His mortal flesh as Christ to His divine will as Jehovah. He says, “And because he [Jehovah] dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God [Christ], and having subjected the flesh [Christ] to the will of the Father [Jehovah], being the Father [Jehovah] and the Son [Christ]” (v. 2).

Next he explains that Jehovah will come to earth and maintain His status as Father, or God, because He will be begotten by Elohim, but He will also be Christ the Son because of the mortal flesh He will inherit from Mary. Therefore, Jesus is “the Father [Jehovah], because he was conceived by the power of God [Elohim]; and the Son [Christ], because of the flesh [mortality inherited from Mary]; thus becoming the Father and the Son [Jehovah and Christ]—And they [Jehovah the Father and Christ the Son] are one God [Jehovah-Christ], yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth” (Mosiah 15:3–4).

Now Abinadi returns to the idea that Jesus will subject His mortal flesh to His divine spirit: “And thus the flesh [Christ] becoming subject to the Spirit [Jehovah], or the Son [Christ] to the Father [Jehovah], being one God [Jehovah-Christ], suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his own people” (vv. 5–6).

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I agree.  Mos 15 is fun in a sense, but it doesn't really work well with LDS thought today.  We have to just say "well He's basically like the Father so we can call Him Father but we don't, so...it doesn't really matter but He's like our Father in a sense too".  It's just one of those scriptures we just kind of shrug off. 

When we covenant with Christ, He becomes our Father and we become His offspring.  It is that relationship which enables us to become joint-heirs with Christ and gain eternal life.

It's not a scripture that Mormons shrug off; it's a part of our doctrine.

[Jane_Doe]

36 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Here in Mosiah, the BOM states "God himself shall come down among the children of men" (as Jesus). According to what I understand, LDS doctrine states that Jesus is the 1st born spirit being of Heavenly father and Heavenly Mother, and also the spiritual parents of Satan and us. 

Note on the word "born"-- we we mortals think of "born" we think of events involving a physical uterus and birth canal.  That is clearly not the case here.  

And yes, the Father is the Father of all.  

36 minutes ago, snowflake said:

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

Note on "created": all individuals have always existed in some form and there was never a time when they did not not exist, so the mainstream Christian idea of "created" does not apply here and it is grossly inaccurate for a mainstream Christian to say "LDS believe Christ was created" as if there was sometime He did not exist.

Now specifically addressing your question: Jesus Christ was the Son of God before He was born of Mary.  He created the Earth. He was alway perfectly diligent and in unity with the Father, unwavering righteousness and love.  We, on the other hand, have all at some time rebelled against the Father.  That's the HUGE difference between us and Christ.  

Honestly I find mainstream Christian idea of Christ being special due to substance or us being cursed or us being "created" to.... with all due respect I honestly find these are all distractions/minimizers from Christ's righteousness.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[USU78]

It's not as difficult as it appears at first glance.

Think in terms of the laws of agency and adoption that underlie so much of our speech.  Why, for example, do we in English refer to a king as "Sire"?  The king, droit de seigneur notwithstanding, is unlikely to be the actual father of all of his subjects.  Yet we are perfectly comfortably referring to him as "Father/Sire".  The word "Sir" derives from identical source.  Every time we use the word "sir," we are acknowledging a whisper of a remnant of this system.

Because of the political and convenantal relationship between king and subject, the king is properly Sire and the subject is properly Son.

Just so, because of the covenantal relationship between the Master and the Christian (which we acknowledge and reaffirm every Sunday at the beginning of Sacrament service), the Master is properly Father and the Christian is properly Son.

[clarkgoble]

41 minutes ago, snowflake said:

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

The usual answer is to compare Mosiah 15 to Merkabah literature like 3 Enoch or a slew of other texts. In these texts figures (often Enoch) ascend to heaven, frequently passing by guardians, to receive the name of God or meet an angel that has the name of God. In a few cases they're given the name Lesser YHWH and act as God. This also parallels the Book of Revelation which seems influenced by Merkabah literature (especially the Enochian texts). In Revelation 22 John falls down to worship the angel only to be rebuffed and told that the angel isn't God. It's arguably something similar is happening in 1 Nephi 11.

In this case Jesus is the express image of the Father and thus can function like the Father much as we see in this class of angelology literature.

The second way to interpret the text is theurgically. Theurgy (as opposed to theology) is the idea of religious practices that draw upon the power of God. This is a major break between how eastern Christianity and western Christianity understand the Trinity and many other things. Theurgy is also a major tradition in Judaism where Merkabah ascents transformed into mystic Kabbalism around the 12th century. Because our culture largely comes from Roman Catholicism and the Protestant breakoffs, it's not as well known. The basic idea comes out platonic inspired religion from late antiquity. The Gods project power and individuals open themselves to it thereby coming to have this divine aspect.

Now in eastern Christianity there's still an ontological gap between God and man so deification that functions in this way isn't quite the same as in Mormonism. However if you reject creation ex nihilo (such as in Jewish forms) then you have the idea of these platonic forms as power and governors projecting their power on individuals. In that case Jesus is fully God because he purified the flesh and was open to God drawing down the power of God. Or, as Abinadi puts it "the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God." This is pretty straightforward theurgy -- although again one can go back to Merkabah texts to see something similar without the platonic trappings.

Edited July 25, 2017 by clarkgoble

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When we covenant with Christ, He becomes our Father and we become His offspring.  It is that relationship which enables us to become joint-heirs with Christ and gain eternal life.

It's not a scripture that Mormons shrug off; it's a part of our doctrine.

The passage tells us a different explanation of how He's our Father--"The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh".

I've  really considered humans to be the offspring of Christ, though.  Interesting that Abinadi lived before Jesus but was said to have said, that Jesus was conceived by the power of God, as if the conception was before His mortality.

Edited July 25, 2017 by stemelbow

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

The passage tells us a different explanation of how He's our Father--"The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh".

I've  really considered humans to be the offspring of Christ, though. 

The whole chapter deals with many different ways that Christ is both Father and Son. That verse outlines one way-that His ability to be the Father (through the Atonement) exists because of His relationship with God the Father.

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The whole chapter deals with many different ways that Christ is both Father and Son. That verse outlines one way-that His ability to be the Father (through the Atonement) exists because of His relationship with God the Father.

Alrght.  yes, we become adopted sons and daughters of Christ.  Thanks and peace out.

[snowflake]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When we covenant with Christ, He becomes our Father and we become His offspring.  It is that relationship which enables us to become joint-heirs with Christ and gain eternal life.

It's not a scripture that Mormons shrug off; it's a part of our doctrine.

Not according to LDS theology, where you are born his offspring, no covenant involved or needed (everyone is saved no?).  The Christian church teaches that the covenant with Christ allows us to be adopted as his. Or that we become his.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

Sometimes when we refer to Jesus Christ as "just" our Spiritual brother, we forget that he is so much more. All names attributed to the Father are also attributed to the Son. They may be three beings, but they act as "One God", as there is no division among them. But Jesus Christ is also our Creator, our Lord, our Master and our God, for they are all part of the same nature. In the Book of John, it teaches that Jesus Christ speaks only the words of the Father, and then it teaches that the Holy Spirit speak only the words of Jesus Christ. They are one in every way conceivable. This is born out in every book of scripture we have.  

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Not according to LDS theology, where you are born his offspring, no covenant involved or needed (everyone is saved no?).  The Christian church teaches that the covenant with Christ allows us to be adopted as his. Or that we become his.

I'm sorry, I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.  There is no covenant needed to be an offspring of God, but there is a covenant needed to become an offspring of Christ.  That is LDS theology.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Not according to LDS theology, where you are born his offspring, no covenant involved or needed (everyone is saved no?).  The Christian church teaches that the covenant with Christ allows us to be adopted as his. Or that we become his.

Again, no contradiction.  We are all offspring of the Father, regardless of a person's religious inclination.  We are adopted sons of Christ through covenant choosing to follow Him. 

And LDS are Christians.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Mosiah Chapter 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Here in Mosiah, the BOM states "God himself shall come down among the children of men" (as Jesus). According to what I understand, LDS doctrine states that Jesus is the 1st born spirit being of Heavenly father and Heavenly Mother, and also the spiritual parents of Satan and us. 

 

My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us"?

Because He is both: " they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth." He was "one God" before He was born; "one God" during Old Testament and Abinadi's times, "one God" when He lived on earth, and then ever since His resurrection. His particular activities may have changed according to these various phases, but He was always "one God" with His Father and our Father.

In a sense, just as we are! It's just a matter of what we are delegated to perform in the various phases and estates as to how fully we are "one God."

[ksfisher]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm sorry, I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.  There is no covenant needed to be an offspring of God, but there is a covenant needed to become an offspring of Christ.  That is LDS theology.

Perhaps Snowflake is confusing this with being Born in the Covenant. 

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps Snowflake is confusing this with being Born in the Covenant. 

I think it's far more like s/he is mixing up being offspring of Heavenly Parents vs covenanting with Christ and becoming His disciple.  

[snowflake]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Because He is both: " they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth." He was "one God" before He was born; "one God" during Old Testament and Abinadi's times, "one God" when He lived on earth, and then ever since His resurrection. His particular activities may have changed according to these various phases, but He was always "one God" with His Father and our Father.

In a sense, just as we are! It's just a matter of what we are delegated to perform in the various phases and estates as to how fully we are "one God."

Again, LDS theology teaches us that Jesus was the firstborn spirit being of Heavenly Father and Mother. How can "God himself come down" if God created this first born spirit being between God and his wife?