snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 44 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Sometimes when we refer to Jesus Christ as "just" our Spiritual brother, we forget that he is so much more. All names attributed to the Father are also attributed to the Son. They may be three beings, but they act as "One God", as there is no division among them. But Jesus Christ is also our Creator, our Lord, our Master and our God, for they are all part of the same nature. In the Book of John, it teaches that Jesus Christ speaks only the words of the Father, and then it teaches that the Holy Spirit speak only the words of Jesus Christ. They are one in every way conceivable. This is born out in every book of scripture we have. Would I be correct in saying "One Father God", "One Holy Spirit God" and " One Son of God, Jesus God", 3 different Gods, one in purpose, is this consistent with the "One God" of the LDS? Or are there more "Gods" or is there a plurality of Gods like Joseph taught? Also, can you please give me the LDS definition for "One God", Sometimes we use the same terms but they have different meanings! i.e. "saved"
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, snowflake said: Again, LDS theology teaches us that Jesus was the firstborn spirit being of Heavenly Father and Mother. How can "God himself come down" if God created this first born spirit being between God and his wife? I don't think I'm understanding your question. Do you not understand that LDS believe Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God? Or that He existed before being born of Mary? What here doesn't make sense?
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, snowflake said: Would I be correct in saying "One Father God", "One Holy Spirit God" and " One Son of God, Jesus God", 3 different Gods, one in purpose, is this consistent with the "One God" of the LDS? Or are there more "Gods" or is there a plurality of Gods like Joseph taught? Also, can you please give me the LDS definition for "One God", Sometimes we use the same terms but they have different meanings! i.e. "saved" The Father and Son are ONE God through unity. Same with the Spirit. They are of one mind, one goal, one love, one righteousness, etc. We have the potential to become one with the Father & Son as well (through Christ's sacrifice). There is no contradiction with the any King Follet speculation, as those persons would also be ONE with the Father. 1
Guest Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: Would I be correct in saying "One Father God", "One Holy Spirit God" and " One Son of God, Jesus God", 3 different Gods, one in purpose, is this consistent with the "One God" of the LDS? Or are there more "Gods" or is there a plurality of Gods like Joseph taught? Also, can you please give me the LDS definition for "One God", Sometimes we use the same terms but they have different meanings! i.e. "saved" Well if you ask, you already know the answer you seek. So let me give you one you will not. God is not a math problem, he who worships, Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, worship "One God". It is not a matter to make light of with little smiley faces. It is not a doctrine to become a "punch line", nor fodder for anti-Mormon tactics. Tactics that are the same used by satan (note how I refuse to capitalize that name, born of lies). "We worship God, according to the dictates of our own conscience", and that "conscience" does not allow me or others to cast our pearls before swine. You might want to remember that we are discussing matters of Faith, matters that are dear, beliefs that are hard fought for, and others have died for. One only need to look to our Sacrament Prayers to know to whom we pray, to whom we worship, and to whom we will not let others make a math question. There are plenty of sites for that, where "high fives", "loud laughter" and scorn are the order of the day. 1
CV75 Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 33 minutes ago, snowflake said: Again, LDS theology teaches us that Jesus was the firstborn spirit being of Heavenly Father and Mother. How can "God himself come down" if God created this first born spirit being between God and his wife? LDS "theology" teaches us a lot of things. Both the Father and the Son can be referred to as "God himself," whether separately or together. After all, they are one in council. 2
Kevin Christensen Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 And there is Brant Gardner's eloquent and insightful approach here: https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2003/monotheism-messiah-and-mormons-book FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburgh, PA 1
snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Well if you ask, you already know the answer you seek. So let me give you one you will not. God is not a math problem, he who worships, Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, worship "One God". It is not a matter to make light of with little smiley faces. It is not a doctrine to become a "punch line", nor fodder for anti-Mormon tactics. Tactics that are the same used by satan (note how I refuse to capitalize that name, born of lies). "We worship God, according to the dictates of our own conscience", and that "conscience" does not allow me or others to cast our pearls before swine. You might want to remember that we are discussing matters of Faith, matters that are dear, beliefs that are hard fought for, and others have died for. One only need to look to our Sacrament Prayers to know to whom we pray, to whom we worship, and to whom we will not let others make a math question. There are plenty of sites for that, where "high fives", "loud laughter" and scorn are the order of the day. Why is it so difficult to just be honest with me, and say you believe in more than one God? Isn't that in fact what Joseph taught, that God was once a man like you and I and he progressed to Godhood. So by simple logic God's dad is a God also?, that would be at least 2 Gods. I am just bringing up a question about your scriptures and your church's teachings. I don't mean to disrespect you or the LDS faith and am not trying to use satan's tactics on you.
snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 39 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: The Father and Son are ONE God through unity. Same with the Spirit. They are of one mind, one goal, one love, one righteousness, etc. We have the potential to become one with the Father & Son as well (through Christ's sacrifice). There is no contradiction with the any King Follet speculation, as those persons would also be ONE with the Father. My problem is that your interpretation here doesn't agree with the BOM or the Bible. I can't seem to fit this idea that Jesus is God's firstborn spiritual offspring into Mosiah 15 or the rest of the BOM.
bluebell Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: My problem is that your interpretation here doesn't agree with the BOM or the Bible. I can't seem to fit this idea that Jesus is God's firstborn spiritual offspring into Mosiah 15 or the rest of the BOM. You've been given multiple answers as to how they agree with the BOM. Have you read any of them? Clicked on any of the links? 1
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: Why is it so difficult to just be honest with me, and say you believe in more than one God? Because we don't. ONE God is not the number of persons involved, as both LDS and Trinitarians both agree that God consists of more than one person. 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: Isn't that in fact what Joseph taught, that God was once a man like you and I and he progressed to Godhood. So by simple logic God's dad is a God also?, that would be at least 2 Gods. Answering this question in regards to our potential to become like God: if we become like God-- become ONE with Him as Christ prayed for -- then we will all still be ONE God. Not 2. Now ***if*** the Father had a history and become as He is now through joining His Father, they would also have become ONE God. Not 2. 1
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, snowflake said: My problem is that your interpretation here doesn't agree with the BOM or the Bible. I can't seem to fit this idea that Jesus is God's firstborn spiritual offspring into Mosiah 15 or the rest of the BOM. Where do you see a contradiction? (I'm asking because I honestly don't understand where you're getting lost, not to be facetious) Do you understand the LDS view Christ as always have existed? That He is the divine Son of God? The the Son and Father are united as ONE God? That both Trinitarians and LDS view the Father and Son as two persons? Edited July 25, 2017 by Jane_Doe
USU78 Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: Why is it so difficult to just be honest with me, and say you believe in more than one God? Isn't that in fact what Joseph taught, that God was once a man like you and I and he progressed to Godhood. So by simple logic God's dad is a God also?, that would be at least 2 Gods. I am just bringing up a question about your scriptures and your church's teachings. I don't mean to disrespect you or the LDS faith and am not trying to use satan's tactics on you. How dare you come here and accuse Papa Lee of dishonesty? You need to apologise tout de suite.
snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Because we don't. ONE God is not the number of persons involved, as both LDS and Trinitarians both agree that God consists of more than one person. Answering this question in regards to our potential to become like God: if we become like God-- become ONE with Him as Christ prayed for -- then we will all still be ONE God. Not 2. Now ***if*** the Father had a history and become as He is now through joining His Father, they would also have become ONE God. Not 2. I thought that there were 3 separate Gods in the LDS "godhead", one in purpose. Trinitarians say One God, three persons, quite different, but my point is Joseph taught that everyone could progress to become a God, he taught a plurality of Gods and that God was a man just like us. If God was truly a man like us he would have parents, grand parents and great grand parents that would be Gods as well... a plurality of Gods.
snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 35 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Where do you see a contradiction? (I'm asking because I honestly don't understand where you're getting lost, not to be facetious) Do you understand the LDS view Christ as always have existed? That He is the divine Son of God? The the Son and Father are united as ONE God? That both Trinitarians and LDS view the Father and Son as two persons? I just don't agree with your idea that all of these gods are one God. Joseph taught in the king follet discourse and in the book of Abraham a council of Gods with one head God. If you have a head God and a council of other Gods that would make more than 1! It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods"; that is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. No man can teach you more than what I have told you. Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council. I will simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers and ye doctors who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods, and they sat in grand council. The grand councilors sat in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds that were created at that time. When I say doctors and lawyers, I mean the doctors and lawyers of the scripture. I have done so hitherto to let the lawyers flutter and everybody laugh at them. Some learned doctor might take a notion to say, "The scriptures say thus and so and are not to be altered."
bluebell Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, snowflake said: I just don't agree with your idea that all of these gods are one God. Joseph taught in the king follet discourse and in the book of Abraham a council of Gods with one head God. If you have a head God and a council of other Gods that would make more than 1! It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods"; that is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. No man can teach you more than what I have told you. Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council. I will simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers and ye doctors who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods, and they sat in grand council. The grand councilors sat in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds that were created at that time. When I say doctors and lawyers, I mean the doctors and lawyers of the scripture. I have done so hitherto to let the lawyers flutter and everybody laugh at them. Some learned doctor might take a notion to say, "The scriptures say thus and so and are not to be altered." There's a difference between disagreeing, and not understanding. There are a lot of things that I don't agree with (some non-LDS Christian doctrines, for example) but I can still understand them when a non-LDS Christian explains why they believe what they do or what their doctrines are. 1
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: I thought that there were 3 separate Gods in the LDS "godhead", one in purpose. 3 divine persons, untied as ONE God/Godhead. The English language struggles with this due to lacks a proper noun tense to describe multiple persons who are 100% united- because there's no group people are united to the extend the Father, Son, and Spirit all. I also find many LDS people when explaining this mistakenly are trying to contrast LDS beliefs with modalism (where the Father/Son/Spirit are all the same person), not actual Trinitarianism (which says that they are 3 different persons). 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: Trinitarians say One God, three persons, quite different Actually, the more I study the Trinity, the more I find the views are similar, save for the Trinitarians extra-scripatual belief in ousia. 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: my point is Joseph taught that everyone could progress to become a God, he taught a plurality of Gods and that God was a man just like us. If God was truly a man like us he would have parents, grand parents and great grand parents that would be Gods as well... a plurality of Gods. Do you understand how if we become ONE with God, as Jesus prayed, that there will still only be ONE God? That's the doctrinal starting point before we get to speculations on speculations of grand parents.
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, snowflake said: I just don't agree with your idea that all of these gods are one God. But do you understand LDS beliefs here? Understanding is a totally different thing than agreeing. 1
Jane_Doe Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: There's a difference between disagreeing, and not understanding. There are a lot of things that I don't agree with (some non-LDS Christian doctrines, for example) but I can still understand them when a non-LDS Christian explains why they believe what they do or what their doctrines are. Amen!
Maidservant Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 Please note (to all) that nowhere in Abinadi's recorded words does he mention Jesus. Assuming 'Jesus' causes one to not understand the doctrine of Christ and of the description of the progression of all mankind (from pre-, to now in earth, to onward as we overcome) that is bespoken of in the passage. In my understanding and opinion. We have all willingingly become Sons (and Daughters) by partaking of the earth passage. And we will all(?) become Fathers and Mothers as we overcome through the Earth Passage. This is a template for everyone, not Jesus only. CHRIST is 'anointed'. The anointing is (among other things) that as (children of) God, we have entered our tabernacles (anointed the vessel with the oil of our spirit) in order to have this Earth experience--which is our initiation into the priesthood (of motherhood and fatherhood). This is CHRIST. Jesus may have shown us how to do this, but we are all doing CHRIST (following him; we have ALL taken upon ourselves the name of CHRIST by covenant, by sacrament/sacrifice). We are ALL the Father and the Son--we are ALL the spirit and the flesh. 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: It's just one of those scriptures we just kind of shrug off. No shrugging here. One of my top 5 favorites. It's glorious and causes me to rejoice. God does his own work. He is precious and vulnerable and his bowels pour out love to us, so that he suffers with us. He is not above--he is here below. Right next to you on the bus. 1
Maidservant Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) ONE GOD means that there is only ONE GOD which is life and liberty and etc etc. GOD cannot be death and captivity etc etc etc. Having ONE TEAM means that there are many individuals on the team. But there is just one team. That is what GOD is. GOD is all--everyone--who participates in God, who is an agent for God, who expresses God, who lives God. This God is endless. It will never unbe. It is the God of union, priesthood, love, etc etc etc. Everyone can participate in the state. GOD is a unitive plural, like team. Like BODY. You have one BODY, but a gazillion cells. So which is it? One body or a gazillion cells? We can understand that it is describing the same thing. That is the same as speaking of GOD. There is ONE GOD. There isn't another GOD. There is ONLY God, some might say (I do). I.E. don't imagine anything to be 'outside' of God, because there is only ONE GOD. It's not a body count. It's a deep understanding of GOD as ONE. Edited July 25, 2017 by Maidservant
Guest Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Why is it so difficult to just be honest with me, I have been nothing but honest, even the Trnity, states they are one God and thee beings, just as I have. Unlike other website, it is considered bad form to call someone a liar here. I am sorry if my comments are harming you, just ignore my responses and you won't have to be in pain. It would not matter if their were 100 beings that make up the God, or Godhead, it would still be "One God". Again, "God" is not a math formula. Maybe you should look to the Bible, and there find the truth, that "Jesus", was God, and yet "became" the Author of our Eternal Salvation", that "Jesus, learned obiedence through the things that he suffered", that "Jesus..."though he were a Son, he thought it not robbery to be equal to God", that "Jesus" became a "joint heir" of God, and made us all "joint heirs" with him that we can and will become "one with God", and that we will become "one" as He and the Father are "one" (John 17th chapter) or to more clearly put it, "For this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God AND Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent". (John 17: 3) Please forgive all scripture in quotes, I must type on an IPad most of the time due to back injury, and could have quoted in error, although I see none at present. But "Snowflake", you will never get anything but the truth from me, dispite your belief that I am misleading you. It is not in my nature to do otherwise. I think you are confused as to what "One" means when (or as) it relates to God. Again, I highly recommend reading John 17, the words of Jesus Christ himself, not a commentary on his words. 2
snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 9 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I have been nothing but honest, even the Trnity, states they are one God and thee beings, just as I have. Unlike other website, it is considered bad form to call someone a liar here. I am sorry if my comments are harming you, just ignore my responses and you won't have to be in pain. It would not matter if their were 100 beings that make up the God, or Godhead, it would still be "One God". Again, "God" is not a math formula. Maybe you should look to the Bible, and there find the truth, that "Jesus", was God, and yet "became" the Author of our Eternal Salvation", that "Jesus, learned obiedence through the things that he suffered", that "Jesus..."though he were a Son, he thought it not robbery to be equal to God", that "Jesus" became a "joint heir" of God, and made us all "joint heirs" with him that we can and will become "one with God", and that we will become "one" as He and the Father are "one" (John 17th chapter) or to more clearly put it, "For this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God AND Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent". (John 17: 3) Please forgive all scripture in quotes, I must type on an IPad most of the time due to back injury, and could have quoted in error, although I see none at present. But "Snowflake", you will never get anything but the truth from me, dispite your belief that I am misleading you. It is not in my nature to do otherwise. I think you are confused as to what "One" means when (or as) it relates to God. Again, I highly recommend reading John 17, the words of Jesus Christ himself, not a commentary on his words. Ok, first of all I did not call you or anyone a liar on the board. I don't like personal attacks and if that is what it felt like, my apologies "Papa". Second of all, excellent response, now I understand where you are coming from with your explanation of 100 beings that could make up the Godhead. As I posted before, I thought that we were probablly using a familiar term "One" as it relates to God with different definitions, which is why I requested clarity on that and the source of my misunderstanding. FYI: Moderators see no difference in telling someone they should be honest and calling them a liar. 1
CV75 Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Why is it so difficult to just be honest with me, and say you believe in more than one God? Isn't that in fact what Joseph taught, that God was once a man like you and I and he progressed to Godhood. So by simple logic God's dad is a God also?, that would be at least 2 Gods. I am just bringing up a question about your scriptures and your church's teachings. I don't mean to disrespect you or the LDS faith and am not trying to use satan's tactics on you. If you believe in John 17, you believe in more than one God also, and Jesus prayed that even you might be one of them! We believe that we have one Father, that He had one Only Begotten Son, and that the Holy Ghost testifies of Them (as He did with Peter) and sanctifies us through the gift of the Holy Ghost (verses 17-19 in connection with John 7:39 and 16:7). We believe that these personages constitute the council we refer to as the Godhead. Each member is a God but none of them can do anything for our immorality and eternal life without the other. In the same way, the prophecies and types of the fathers under the schoolmaster of Moses would not be realized without the coming of Christ and the saints accepting Him (Hebrews 11:40). Edited July 25, 2017 by CV75
USU78 Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 26 minutes ago, snowflake said: Ok, first of all I did not call you or anyone a liar on the board. I don't like personal attacks and if that is what it felt like, my apologies "Papa". Second of all, excellent response, now I understand where you are coming from with your explanation of 100 beings that could make up the Godhead. As I posted before, I thought that we were probablly using a familiar term "One" as it relates to God with different definitions, which is why I requested clarity on that and the source of my misunderstanding. Collective nouns. Look into it! 1
snowflake Posted July 25, 2017 Author Posted July 25, 2017 39 minutes ago, CV75 said: If you believe in John 17, you believe in more than one God also, and Jesus prayed that even you might be one of them! We believe that we have one Father, that He had one Only Begotten Son, and that the Holy Ghost testifies of Them (as He did with Peter) and sanctifies us through the gift of the Holy Ghost (verses 17-19 in connection with John 7:39 and 16:7). We believe that these personages constitute the council we refer to as the Godhead. Each member is a God but none of them can do anything for our immorality and eternal life without the other. In the same way, the prophecies and types of the fathers under the schoolmaster of Moses would not be realized without the coming of Christ and the saints accepting Him (Hebrews 11:40). Sounds like the trinity to me...maybe you are Trinitarian?
Recommended Posts