snowflake Posted July 26, 2017 Author Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: In your belief system: are you and angels the same species? you and God? God and angels? From my understanding of Creedal Christianity, the answer to those questions is "no", resulting in at least 3 different species of intelligent life. LDS simply answer "yes" to all those questions. We're all the same species. That is correct according to Creedal Christianity, God, angels and Human are 3 different "species". And what I understand about the LDS faith, all 3 the same species. There are a few examples in the Bible of the fallen angels breeding with women. Genesis 6:2,4 Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Now you will have to do some research on "sons of God". bene ha elohim, “sons of God” (Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7) bene ‘elim, “sons of God” (Psalms 29:1; 89:6)
snowflake Posted July 26, 2017 Author Posted July 26, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I don't think this matters because, wherever He came from, John 1:1-14 teaches that He was both with God and was God. The Jews knew this also: that the Son of God is God as far as they are concerned, and also that sons of God, as gods, become one with God, and God, also. What about the "sons of God" in Genesis 6, and Job 1 and 2? Would they become one with God or are they one with God?
Kevin Christensen Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 FYI: Quote All the texts in the Hebrew Bible distinguish clearly between the divine sons of Elohim/Elyon and those human beings who are called sons of Yahweh. This must be significant. It must mean that the terms originated at a time when Yahweh was distinguished from whatever was meant by El/Elohim/Elyon. A large number of texts continued to distinguish between El Elyon and Yahweh, Father and Son, and to express this distinction in similar ways with the symbolism of the temple and the royal cult. By tracing these patterns through a great variety of material and over several centuries, Israel’s second God can be recovered. Barker, The Great Angel, 10, emphasis in original. Also: Quote What has become clear to me time and time again is that even over so wide an area, the evidence points consistently in one direction and indicates that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic in the sense that we use the word. The roots of Christian trinitarian theology lie in pre-Christian Palestinian beliefs about the angels. There were many in first-century Palestine who still retained a world-view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel [that of the First Temple] in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel. Yahweh, the Lord, could be manifested on earth in human form, as an angel or in the Davidic king. It was as a manifestation of Yahweh, the Son of God, that Jesus was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah and Lord. Barker, The Great Angel, 3, emphasis in original. Best, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 4
CV75 Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: What about the "sons of God" in Genesis 6, and Job 1 and 2? Would they become one with God or are they one with God? It depends, and doesn't change anyone's argument about Jesus anyway. How are you going to follow up on my response to Posted 4 hours ago
Jane_Doe Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 55 minutes ago, snowflake said: That is correct according to Creedal Christianity, God, angels and Human are 3 different "species". And what I understand about the LDS faith, all 3 the same species. There are a few examples in the Bible of the fallen angels breeding with women. Genesis 6:2,4 Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Now you will have to do some research on "sons of God". bene ha elohim, “sons of God” (Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7) bene ‘elim, “sons of God” (Psalms 29:1; 89:6) Yeah, LDS disagree with your interpretation of all these species. 50 minutes ago, snowflake said: What about the "sons of God" in Genesis 6, and Job 1 and 2? Would they become one with God or are they one with God? Weill fully become ONE with God after their mortal lives and being washed clean in the blood of Christ. Everyone is in the same boat (assuming they are following Christ).
Robert F. Smith Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 9:00 AM, snowflake said: Mosiah Chapter 15: 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. Here in Mosiah, the BOM states "God himself shall come down among the children of men" (as Jesus). According to what I understand, LDS doctrine states that Jesus is the 1st born spirit being of Heavenly father and Heavenly Mother, and also the spiritual parents of Satan and us. My question is: How can Jesus be our created spiritual brother if he is "God himself come down among us: The matter is not either-or, but rather both-and in this case. Moreover, the concept was already present before NT times: 4Qumran246 (4QpsDan Aa, 4QSon of God) Aramaic I "[He] shall be great upon the earth.... and all shall serve [him]...the [g]reat..," II "and by his name shall he be hailed (as) the Son of God, and they shall call him Son of the Most High" ∥Lk 1:31-32,35. 1Q28a 2:11-12 "when [God] has fa[th]ered the Messiah," i.e., 1QSa has God “fathering, begetting” (Hebrew holid) the Messiah of Israel. Cf. II Ne 17:14 (Isa 7:14), 19:6 (Isa 9:6). J. J. Collins, "A Pre-Christian 'Son of God' Among the Dead Sea Scrolls," Bible Review, 9/3 (June 1993):34-38,57; Israel Knohl, The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls, trans. D. Maisel, S. Mark Taper Foundation Book in Jewish Studies. (Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000); Michael Wise, The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ (S.F.: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999). Also, please note Hayim ben Yosef Tawil, An Akkadian Lexical Companion for Biblical Hebrew (KTAV, 2009), 142, Quote While Speiser and NJPS render [yĕḥîd] (in Gen 22:2,12,16) as "your favored one," construed as a term of value, we suggest that [yĕḥîd] "the only child" refers in a legal sense to the only designated heir. Just so, Hirsch Miller's 1922 Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon has ben yĕḥîdô. Jesus is the only legal and physical heir. That is the meaning of "only begotten," Jacob 4:5, John 3:16, Hebrews 11:17. The heir of God is God. 4
LittleNipper Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: So in your view, a son of God cannot have free will, and hence Christ can be a son of God, but not Lucifer? How about rest of the sons of God that shouted for joy in Job 38:7- do they likewise not have free will? The LDS view is that all sons of God have free will. Christ has always chosen to not sin, Lucifer obviously choose to rebel. GOD has perfect will. God cannot sin. Christ is part of the godhead (TRINITY). Satan is a fallen cherub/angel. He represents a created being unlike GOD.
Jane_Doe Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 1 minute ago, LittleNipper said: GOD has perfect will. God cannot sin. Christ is part of the godhead (TRINITY). Satan is a fallen cherub/angel. He represents a created being unlike GOD. I'm having issues following you here. Would you mind specifically answering each of my questions according to your beliefs: Does God have free will? Does the Son of God have free will? Does a son of God have free will? 3
USU78 Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 13 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: GOD has perfect will. God cannot sin. Christ is part of the godhead (TRINITY). Satan is a fallen cherub/angel. He represents a created being unlike GOD. And one finds this in scripture ... where exactly? 3
LittleNipper Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: I'm having issues following you here. Would you mind specifically answering each of my questions according to your beliefs: Does God have free will? Does the Son of God have free will? Does a son of God have free will? GOD cannot sin.. Free will applies only to beings GOD created. GOD is light and love. The Son of God is a being of the Godhead who emptied Himself to assume a life as a man; however, he is still eternal God and without sin, placing Himself entirely under God the Father's direction. So no, I do not believe Jesus was ever capable of failing the task He came to fulfill. A child of God certainly has free will:however, once a saved individual passes on to heaven, his will is limited to serving GOD. He made his choice in life. It is like GOD's consideration of marriage. A man can chose to marry a particular woman and a woman can reject whomever she chooses; however, once married, they are married for life. GOD hates divorce. Heaven will be filled only with those who wish to be with GOD FOREVER and serve HIM --- the free will choices occur in this life. Edited July 27, 2017 by LittleNipper
Jane_Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: GOD cannot sin.. Free will applies only to beings GOD created. GOD is light and love. The Son of God is a being of the Godhead who emptied Himself to assume a life as a man; however, he is still eternal God and without sin, placing Himself entirely under God the Father's direction. So no, I do not believe Jesus was ever capable of failing the task He came to fulfill. A child of God certainly has free will:however, once a saved individual passes on to heaven, his will is limited to serving GOD. He made his choice in life. It is like GOD's consideration of marriage. A man can chose to marry a particular woman and a woman can reject whomever she chooses; however, once married, they are married for life. GOD hates divorce. Heaven will be filled only with those who wish to be with GOD FOREVER and serve HIM --- the free will choices occur in this life. So you believe God does NOT have free will? Please just give me a simple "yes" or "no". 2
LittleNipper Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: So you believe God does NOT have free will? Please just give me a simple "yes" or "no". GOD is HIS will. GOD simply will never do anything abhorrent to HIS character/nature. Your question is flawed because you don't understand the workings of the Lord and what love is. Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Edited July 27, 2017 by LittleNipper
USU78 Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: So you believe God does NOT have free will? Please just give me a simple "yes" or "no". Evidently he can't. Just keeps reciting his catechism whilst fiddling with his rosary.
snowflake Posted July 27, 2017 Author Posted July 27, 2017 23 hours ago, CV75 said: That sounds good enough to me. If Jesus is God in the flesh , how could God have a spirit baby with Heavenly Mother creating himself....it just doesn't make sense when looking at Mosiah 15.
snowflake Posted July 27, 2017 Author Posted July 27, 2017 18 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Yeah, LDS disagree with your interpretation of all these species. Weill fully become ONE with God after their mortal lives and being washed clean in the blood of Christ. Everyone is in the same boat (assuming they are following Christ). Are demons considered the same species as humans, angels, gods and God in Mormon theology?
Jane_Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, snowflake said: If Jesus is God in the flesh , how could God have a spirit baby with Heavenly Mother creating himself....it just doesn't make sense when looking at Mosiah 15. I feel like we've explained this to you several times already. Would you mind telling us where you are not understanding, so we can specifically address that point? 50 minutes ago, snowflake said: Are demons considered the same species as humans, angels, gods and God in Mormon theology? Again, LDS don't believe in aliens. Demons/devil are those who choose to rebel against God. No one forced them, nothing forced them, they choose to rebel. Edited July 27, 2017 by Jane_Doe
Robert F. Smith Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 27 minutes ago, snowflake said: Are demons considered the same species as humans, angels, gods and God in Mormon theology? What are "demons," which are never mentioned in the KJV Bible? They are mentioned in Helaman 13:37, but is that metaphorical or real? 3
Jane_Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: What are "demons," which are never mentioned in the KJV Bible? They are mentioned in Helaman 13:37, but is that metaphorical or real? Good point.
CV75 Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 58 minutes ago, snowflake said: If Jesus is God in the flesh , how could God have a spirit baby with Heavenly Mother creating himself....it just doesn't make sense when looking at Mosiah 15. But that isn't what Mosiah 15 says. 2
snowflake Posted July 27, 2017 Author Posted July 27, 2017 29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: What are "demons," which are never mentioned in the KJV Bible? They are mentioned in Helaman 13:37, but is that metaphorical or real? Good point Robert, "demons" are not mentioned in the KJV. Ok, I like being specific, they (demons) are referred to as devils, unclean spirits in the KJV. Take Matthew 4 for example. 24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Are these devils and unclean spirits human?
Jane_Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: Good point Robert, "demons" are not mentioned in the KJV. Ok, I like being specific, they (demons) are referred to as devils, unclean spirits in the KJV. Take Matthew 4 for example. 24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Are these devils and unclean spirits human? "Human" is usually applied to individuals who have bodies. But yes, they are the same species as us. They are those spirits who were cast out as disciples of Lucifer/Satan. "Devil" is someone who promotes evil, whether being a spirit who was cast out (which is the usual use of the term), but can also applied to a bodied person doing evil. If you want i can provide a scriptural examples.
CV75 Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, CV75 said: But that isn't what Mosiah 15 says. @snowflake This is what Mosiah 15 says. Please take note of the commentary in brackets and the conclusion at the end. 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself [Jesus as the Son, and the Father as manifested in His Son per verse 3] shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God [the Father], and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they [the Father and the Son] are [that is, constitute] one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. 5 And thus the flesh [ the Son as a mortal] becoming subject to the Spirit [the Father as a glorified resurrected Being], or the [mortal] Son [of God the Father] to the [exalted heavenly] Father, being one God [per verse 4, both mortal in body and having the power of the Father in spirit], suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. 6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. 8 And thus God [per verse 4, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth] breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; [the Father] giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men— 9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice. 10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his [the Son’s] generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed? [Answer: those who are reborn in and through the Son, per verses 11 and 12] 11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord [per verse 4, the Son in the flesh and the manifestation of the Father’s will, power, grace, etc. through the Son (“he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:9]—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord [per verse 4] would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his [the Son’s] seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God. 12 For these are they whose sins he [the Son] has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed? 13 Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his [the Son’s] seed. 14 And these are they who have published peace, who have brought good tidings of good, who have published salvation; and said unto Zion: Thy God [per verse 4, with the Son as the Father of our rebirth (per verses 11 and 12) and resurrection (per verse 20) and the Father as the Father of the Son and of our spirits] reigneth! 15 And O how beautiful upon the mountains were their feet! 16 And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that are still publishing peace! 17 And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who shall hereafter publish peace, yea, from this time henceforth and forever! 18 And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord [this can refer to the Son, the Father through the Son, and/or the “council” of the Eternal Father, per verse 4], who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people; 19 For were it not for the redemption which he [the Son under the Father, with both constituting the Eternal God] hath made for his people, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, I say unto you, were it not for this, all mankind must have perished. 20 But behold, the bands of death shall be broken, and the Son reigneth, and hath power over the dead; therefore, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. 21 And there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ—for so shall he [the Son] be called. 22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God [per verse 4], shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23 They are raised to dwell with God [per verse 18] who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ [the Son in the flesh], who has broken the bands of death. 24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ [the Son in the flesh] came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord [per verse 18] bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord [per verse 18]. 25 And little children also have eternal life. 26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God [per verses 4 and 18], for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord [per verse18] redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God [per verse18], that have known the commandments of God [per verse18], and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. 27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord [per verse18] hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord [per verse18] redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim. 28 And now I say unto you that the time shall come that the salvation of the Lord [per verse18] shall be declared to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. 29 Yea, Lord, thy watchmen shall lift up their voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion. 30 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 31 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God [per verse18]. Note that the verses prior to 18 focus on our spiritual rebirth in the flesh, and the verses after that begin to incorporate our resurrection, and how the roles of the Son, the Father and the Eternal God come into play in what “God” and the “Lord” refer to, and how these terms relate to our spiritual rebirth and resurrection. Edited July 27, 2017 by CV75
RevTestament Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 19 hours ago, LittleNipper said: GOD has perfect will. God cannot sin. Christ is part of the godhead (TRINITY). Satan is a fallen cherub/angel. He represents a created being unlike GOD. Satan is a spirit. Spirits are not created. If so, they would all come to this earth as beings.
RevTestament Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Good point Robert, "demons" are not mentioned in the KJV. Ok, I like being specific, they (demons) are referred to as devils, unclean spirits in the KJV. Take Matthew 4 for example. 24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Are these devils and unclean spirits human? No. They did not keep their first estate, but rebelled against God, so do not have an opportunity to come to earth as beings with a soul.
RevTestament Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 4 hours ago, snowflake said: If Jesus is God in the flesh , how could God have a spirit baby with Heavenly Mother creating himself....it just doesn't make sense when looking at Mosiah 15. Yeshua was begotten by the word of God - an oath - not by spirit sex or something. Yeshua was begotten by the Father in similar fashion to that presented in Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. There is no "mother" there other than the Church. God is not carnal. He doesn't just decide to make one spirit His first begotten Son, but Yeshua chose to follow Him.
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