Jane_Doe Posted August 9, 2017 Posted August 9, 2017 22 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: GOD made a choice. My belief is that the future has already (in the mind of God) been predetermined. Ok, we've established that God has the ability to make choices. Can we likewise agree that you have the ability to choose, I do, and everyone else does, including Lucifer/Satan? I'm asking specifically about the ability to choose. I'm not asking about how well that person uses it, if they are erratic in their choices, etc. Just that they all do indeed have the ability to choose.
JLHPROF Posted August 9, 2017 Posted August 9, 2017 11 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Because GOD is unchanging, He never changes. Except when he does. There is ample evidence of God changing, even in the Trinity. There was a time before Christ manifest in the flesh and a time after. Therefore there was a time before Christ had a physical mortal body and a time after. A time before Christ had experienced mortal death and a time after. A time before a resurrected body was received and a time after. If you truly believe Christ to be God, then you have to acknowledge that God can change. Because Christ did repeatedly. He increased in learning as a mortal child. He experienced death that an immortal eternal God had not experienced before. To say Christ is God and God is unchanging is to ignore scripture. 1
LittleNipper Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Except when he does. There is ample evidence of God changing, even in the Trinity. There was a time before Christ manifest in the flesh and a time after. Therefore there was a time before Christ had a physical mortal body and a time after. A time before Christ had experienced mortal death and a time after. A time before a resurrected body was received and a time after. If you truly believe Christ to be God, then you have to acknowledge that God can change. Because Christ did repeatedly. He increased in learning as a mortal child. He experienced death that an immortal eternal God had not experienced before. To say Christ is God and God is unchanging is to ignore scripture. I believe that Christ encompasses the body of GOD. I understand what you are referring to. I understand Christ's pre-incarnate appearances as a Theophany/Christophany. Christ would not be totally human at that point, it was not until HIS actual incarnation through Mary that this was actualized.However, this was part of the total plan. This may make it clearer for you: https://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html Yes, Jesus died on the cross but only because He gave up His Spirit. No one took it from Him. And the other reality is that Jesus went to (probably) Abraham's bosom (also known as Paradise) to release the souls of the departed saved to enter heaven. At this point Paradise seems to have went away and hell was enlarged. Yes, I have wrestled with the fact that Jesus was born and matured and went to the cross. However, He was also God and it is His being God that didn't change. He continued to do perfectly what He come here to do. Edited August 10, 2017 by LittleNipper
JLHPROF Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 41 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: I believe that Christ encompasses the body of GOD. I understand what you are referring to. I understand Christ's pre-incarnate appearances as a Theophany/Christophany. Christ would not be totally human at that point, it was not until HIS actual incarnation through Mary that this was actualized.However, this was part of the total plan. This may make it clearer for you: https://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html Yes, Jesus died on the cross but only because He gave up His Spirit. No one took it from Him. And the other reality is that Jesus went to (probably) Abraham's bosom (also known as Paradise) to release the souls of the departed saved to enter heaven. At this point Paradise seems to have went away and hell was enlarged. Yes, I have wrestled with the fact that Jesus was born and matured and went to the cross. However, He was also God and it is His being God that didn't change. He continued to do perfectly what He come here to do. You can use any explanations you like, any terminology and semantics you like. The fact remains that your eternal unchangeable God records multiple changes in the manifestation as Christ. The fact is he is NOT the same yesterday (before his incarnation) as he was today (during his maturation and death) or as he was tomorrow (with a resurrected physical body.) You cannot say that as the physical manifestation of God that God is the same unchanging being. He changed!
Jane_Doe Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Ok, we've established that God has the ability to make choices. Can we likewise agree that you have the ability to choose, I do, and everyone else does, including Lucifer/Satan? I'm asking specifically about the ability to choose. I'm not asking about how well that person uses it, if they are erratic in their choices, etc. Just that they all do indeed have the ability to choose. *bump*
LittleNipper Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: You can use any explanations you like, any terminology and semantics you like. The fact remains that your eternal unchangeable God records multiple changes in the manifestation as Christ. The fact is he is NOT the same yesterday (before his incarnation) as he was today (during his maturation and death) or as he was tomorrow (with a resurrected physical body.) You cannot say that as the physical manifestation of God that God is the same unchanging being. He changed! Can Jesus sin? If not His motives and love have not changed. Christ still knew everyone and their respective eternities before they were born.
Jane_Doe Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 I really would like to get back to talking about God and the ability to choose, and how/if this ability contrasts with other persons....
Jude2 Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 I think the problem we have with these passages is that it’s all in English and not the Hebrew. It’s missing the plural Elohim meaning Godhead and the singular El meaning our Father in Heaven, (Not that I know a lot about Hebrew). Plus when this was written it wasn’t in verses, I think it breaks up the line of thought the wrong way. “And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God/Yahweh himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God/El, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father/El, (Yaweh) being the Father and the Son— The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God/El; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— And they are one Elohim(s), yea, the very Eternal Father(s) of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father/El, being one Elohim, (the Son) suffereth temptation, …..Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son/Yahweh being swallowed up in the will of the Father/El. And thus the Elohim(s) breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men— But that’s just my understanding of it all.
JLHPROF Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Can Jesus sin? Yes.
Jane_Doe Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Yes. I'm going to elaborate on this answer. Does Jesus have the ability to choose to sin- yes. He is not forced to do anything- He does indeed have a choice. He chooses to do what He does and always chooses righteousness. And He always will choose righteousness because that's who He is. LDS do not sit worrying that Christ may one day fall and choose some other path- that'd be very silly. He is who He is and will not waver. I have met Christians of other denominations who believe Christ doesn't have free will- that he can't choose and was/is forced to do everything he did/does. Obviously LDS passionately disagree with such an idea: we believe in Christ who infinitely chooses Good out of infinite love. 2
RevTestament Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 16 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I believe that Christ encompasses the body of GOD. I understand what you are referring to. I understand Christ's pre-incarnate appearances as a Theophany/Christophany. Christ would not be totally human at that point, it was not until HIS actual incarnation through Mary that this was actualized.However, this was part of the total plan. This may make it clearer for you: https://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html Yes, Jesus died on the cross but only because He gave up His Spirit. No one took it from Him. And the other reality is that Jesus went to (probably) Abraham's bosom (also known as Paradise) to release the souls of the departed saved to enter heaven. At this point Paradise seems to have went away and hell was enlarged. Yes, I have wrestled with the fact that Jesus was born and matured and went to the cross. However, He was also God and it is His being God that didn't change. He continued to do perfectly what He come here to do. The immutable God of the doctrine of the Trinity is an unscriptural myth. God changes not in his righteousness. However, he broke His covenant because the people broke it, and therefore He was not bound to it. This is the aspect of God which does not change - His justice and righteousness. However, when it comes to Yeshua we see all kinds of change. He inherits names, the government, etc. Hence, I conclude that before He was begotten as the Son, He was not the first begotten Son. For scripture to be true then, another must have been the Son. The Bible tells us Yeshua came to earth as a calling. Ephesians 1:18 18 The eyes of your aunderstanding being benlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the criches of the glory of his dinheritance in the saints, I conclude that His adoption as the Son was into a priesthood office. Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? ... Yeshua has many verbs attached to Him which indicate change. He inherits names and government. He is begotten. Yet we are told: 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. This is trying to communicate that Yeshua remains our Savior. He is immortal even though He clearly died. It doesn't mean He will not be called our Father. Or that He did not inherit the title of YHWH. Or that He won't inherit the government of the world. Scripture just doesn't comport with such ideas of an immutable Christ who it says was made or became perfect. Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; To make Yeshua immutable, you would have to change scripture so that He is no longer begotten, does not inherit, and doesn't become perfect. Of course this is what the Nicene Creed seeks to do by making Christ begotten before all aeon/ages/worlds. Out of these choices, I choose scripture.
RevTestament Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said: I'm going to elaborate on this answer. Does Jesus have the ability to choose to sin- yes. He is not forced to do anything- He does indeed have a choice. He chooses to do what He does and always chooses righteousness. And He always will choose righteousness because that's who He is. LDS do not sit worrying that Christ may one day fall and choose some other path- that'd be very silly. He is who He is and will not waver. I have met Christians of other denominations who believe Christ doesn't have free will- that he can't choose and was/is forced to do everything he did/does. Obviously LDS passionately disagree with such an idea: we believe in Christ who infinitely chooses Good out of infinite love. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
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