Popular Post The Nehor Posted July 25, 2017 Popular Post Posted July 25, 2017 On 7/23/2017 at 9:23 AM, Gray said: A back door kind of slavery was wrongful imprisonment, followed by years of forced labor. This went on for decades after the end of formalized slavery This kind of thing is why I consider it a scandal and abomination that we (meaning the United States) are embracing the privatization of prisons. We created an incentive to incarcerate people and about the time we started privatizing prisons the "tough on crime" initiatives started showing up along with mandatory minimum sentences. Now we have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world. It is almost as though creating profit-driven economic forces that benefit from incarceration was a perverse and stupid idea. As a lesser evil it also created all those horrible anti-drug and anti-crime cartoons I had to watch as a kid further proving their evil intent. 5
The Nehor Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 Oh, and I am an iron rod saint who does believe the gospel and the deity behind it can answer all questions but I am also a Liahona saint because I am always poking my nose about hunting new questions and I am skeptical of many of the LDS cultural answers to said questions. I really think the dichotomy was created by self-proclaimed Liahona saints basking in the superiority of their never-ending search for truth over those dumb Iron Head saints who think cheap platitudes uttered ignorantly unveil the secrets of the Universe. Then again I am a cynical monster so I could be overly harsh here. 4
Robert F. Smith Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 On 7/23/2017 at 9:18 PM, sunstoned said: Agreed. No one today "clearly agrees with Brigham Young" on issues of slavery. For whatever reason, he was a racist. He said and preached terrible racist things. IMO it is best for both leaders and latter day saints to just agree that teachings of the past were were wrong, we apologize and we are moving on. Pretending that Brigham was wrong on everything may be ideologically comforting, but it isn't historical. 1
Bob Crockett Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 On 7/22/2017 at 11:48 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Sorry, Erik, but great as the Great Emancipator was, he did not in fact end slavery. Nor did the 13th Amendment to the Constitution (1965). You define slavery as the legal sale of one human to another on the open market. Modern civil rights leaders have given us a more realistic definition based on de facto slavery or serfdom. You may not think that Jim Crow, the KKK, and constant lynchings were an important sign that nothing had changed, but Black people themselves knew better. One result was the Great Migration of the 1930s and 40s, in which millions of Black Southerners went North and West to find better lives, well away from their Jim Crow masters. Maybe you'd like to tell Emmet Till that he only imagined that he was considered a de facto slave. The entire matter of slavery is a huge blot on the false claim of American exceptionalism, not to mention that our wonderful country never honored any of the treaties made with American Indians, and even exterminated many of them (whole tribes, including women & children). Persecution of minorities has long been a major American sport. With the full, official cooperation of white Protestant Christians. i'm not a Civil War expert but I recall the Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to the Northern states nor to border states. Slavery was still legal in both, although legal in the North only where slaves were brought in from the South. I get this from Killer Angels; I am not an expert.
sunstoned Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Pretending that Brigham was wrong on everything may be ideologically comforting, but it isn't historical. Robert, I have never said that he was wrong on everything. In fact, that is a straw man meant to deflect. What I said he was a racist, and it the area of race, he was very wrong. You know his teachings on this matter as well as I do. 2
hagoth7 Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 (edited) On 7/22/2017 at 5:56 PM, SteveO said: I think depending on the topic, I find myself in both camps. I don't question church leadership or criticize them. I think it is a dangerous road to go down. Honor the brethren. Always. Regardless of the current state of one's testimony. Even if they weren't men of God (they are), it would be dangerous to denegrate them. The church is our spiritual parent, just as the place(s) we are raised...our temporal parent. Honor...father and mother...that the days... Fail to honor either our spiritual or natural heritage, and it's toxic to your soul. On 7/22/2017 at 5:56 PM, SteveO said: I will straight up skip elder's quorum most Sundays. I just get emotionally exhausted dealing with fellow members. I am deeply fed each time I attend quorum. Have been thinking since Sunday that I need to appropriately thank the instructor, and the leadership that were prompted to call him. To improve your quorum (and anyone else's Sunday School or sacrament) experience, I *highly* recommend Pres. Eyring's "To Draw Closer..." On 7/22/2017 at 5:56 PM, SteveO said: I struggle with prayers, but love scripture study. Stuff that I've felt guilty over, but I think I shouldn't have to. 1. Simply find a cause greater than yourself that you feel called to throw yourself into, and I suspect you'll find yourself praying in your heart regularly for guidance. 2. Once you've found a cause worth fighting for, I suggest trying this: pray 3 x daily facing temple. 3. I'm not of the opinion God wants us dwelling in guilt. That's what the dark side would prefer us to do for years on end. Nephi's psalm. I think we'll generally all be much better off if we build a little bridge, get over it and forgive ourselves for making a dorkstep or for being rebellious, and simply get on with making the world around us a wee better place.:0) In my view, repentance isn't about beating ourself up ad nauseum for dorksteps. Most mistakes made are simply because we didn't know then what we happen to know now. Rather than guilt/shame, it's instead more about the need to humbly thank God for Christ's atonement, apologize for falling short, ask for forgiveness, do our best to make amends, stand up, do a 180, dust off, and step out in a new life. Great thread. Thank you for it. Edited July 26, 2017 by hagoth7 3
hagoth7 Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 And as to the thread's title. In the end, I hope we end up as IronRod/Liahona saints. Every last one of us. 3
california boy Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 On 7/23/2017 at 8:00 AM, Maidservant said: For me I would repeat this: "an unquestioning spirit betokens an imperfect faith". I am absolutely a questioner. And I deeply believe that the kind of questions we ask determine the kind of answers that are possible. That GOD produces answers according to the questions asked. (GOD for me being something much more total and endless than 'Heavenly Father', who is a man exalted, and ahead of us on the path, and a partaker of GOD.) I don't consider myself a skeptic, because I am absolutely a believer. I believe and believe and believe. Heck, I believe in unicorns. But I do consider myself a materialist/experientialist. I also consider the greatest faith to be the one that says "The emperor has no clothes on" rather than the faith of "what a wonderful outfit the emperor has on". So I find myself of the former--for better or worse, and I won't congratulate myself or assume it's for the better. I am also a completely off the path kind of person--again, for better or worse. I absolutely have no use for 'a path'. What for? That's the place where everybody else has been already!!! I want to go climb a tree, run through a meadow, find out where the creek is. Yes, I might meet a bear--but bears find the path, too. I once had a conversation with God/Heavenly Father/whoever was listening/just myself. I was in a sealing room of the temple for a relative's wedding. There was a time set for it to begin (of course). The time for the beginning was a very important rule. The order of the temple depends on it. Also, if you are a respectful/good person, you would think that you could manage to respect the temple's timetable, it just can't be that hard. However, in this instance, almost everyone was seated and ready in the sealing room. But there was one sibling and spouse that were trying to park their car and was simply not going to make the time. They closed the door and the Sealer began to give the counsel. At the end of the counsel, they opened the door in this case and let the waiting couple into the room, so that they too were able to witness the actual sealing ceremony. Well, when this was happening, I was very sad inside myself and anxious that the sibling be included. And so this is why I began the conversation with God. And I asked him, "Which rule should we keep? Should we keep the rule of the sealing starting on time? Or should we keep the rule where the sibling should be gathered with the family? Which is the more godly rule?" Well, when the door opened and the family member was gathered, I felt like Heavenly Father answered me. Of course, it had started on time, also! Ha ha. Up to that point, had you asked me, I would have been a "we should start on time" kind of Mormon. But ever after that til today, I am always trying to find the deepest, most fundamental rule that should be kept in any situation ("let the family in"), and it is almost never the rule I first think, nor are the rules always compatible, even though they are both good (or both equally bad choices with fallout)--but to choose one, is to deny the other. But I think that's the way it is supposed to be until we come to the Fulness of the Father! (And started in the grand tradition of Eve.) As far as scriptures/temple, they have levels upon levels upon levels forever [levels of closed through levels of open] . . . and what scriptures you read/get revealed to you are the ones you are ready for i.e. who you are at that point. In the end, I have to know myself and I have to know God. And I have to be able to live with myself with integrity and peace. The prophets and the scriptures can be a guide, but in the end I have to be 'plugged in' myself otherwise the prophets and scriptures are nothing after all. And if I make a huge mistake (because I'm relying on myself and attempting to channel the Spirit) and get it wrong (the wrong Spirit)--well, I'll just claw my way back. It's all experience, so in the end, it can be my good. I happen to know already (by experience), that God is coming after to me to find me no matter where I wander. The 'church' of my childhood and the 'church' of my young adulthood (and the 'GOD' of my childhood and young adulthood) is completely gone for me. I don't recognize that person any more and I can't be that person anymore, and that means I can't live in that church and engage with that God anymore. It has been a very many bewildering and lonely years for me. But I also feel like that it is GOD and possibly Heavenly Father who needed that old me, including that old church, and that God that WASN'T REALLY HIM, to get shattered. I wasn't sure what to build in it's place and I only can admit I don't know GOD yet. But I know more than I used to. Now it's a God I find everywhere--in every church, in every song, in every person, in every destruction, in every resurrection. And I'm not done yet, I know that. I still don't know if my final peace is in the church or out of it. I'd like to be in it--but I HAVE TO FOLLOW WHERE I THINK GOD IS TAKING ME, even if it's somewhere I could not have imagined ever being what was right before, in the way that I thought 'right' was. I think one place where people get tripped up is with the IDOL OF RECONCILIATION. They confuse 'GOD' or truth with 'it has to make sense and line up'. NOT. If we could be comfortably with 'THIS IS REALLY WEIRD AND MAKES NO SENSE WHATEVER BUT WHAT A RIDE!!' For example, I have a big problem with Bible transmission. Huge. But I also absolutely know how I feel when I participate in a baptism (I'm often the piano player, so I get to attend a lot of baptisms) and how I feel when my older sons ordain their younger brothers into the priesthood. I don't want to discard my EXPERIENCE even in the face of something I find completely not what I once thought it to be (i.e. the Bible). I never want to be so 'right' about something historical, that I 'right' myself out of serving my sisters by the manner of visiting teaching. I want to be humble enough to participate in visiting teaching. I also have to acknowledge that I have been UPHELD massively in my life; I know I have been served from beyond the veil by those who love me, God or ancestors or Lord Ganesh or all, any, and more. So I know whatever the paradigm shape the real universe turns out to be (we see through a glass darkly now), I know I. am. loved. and I have the opportunity to also learn to give that level of love. Anyway, I don't know if THIS all made sense (maybe it helped ME to write it)--but I'm choosing to hang on to what Bro. Uchtdorf said--that I should stay as long and as much as I can, and be who I can be WITHIN the church; rather than leaving. So I am taking that at face value at this point, until and unless I feel my integrity is violated by doing so. But I do understand people who get to that point. This is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read. I feel like you have written every sentence about me. I can't tell you how exact this resonates with me. Perhaps that will scare you. I feel this sure witness of what you say. My experience in the gospel is so much like this. When I read the scriptures, I am always looking for the underlining message. What is really being said here. I once decided to read the Book of Mormon and write something about every single verse. Yeah crazy huh. But what an experience that was. I thought about things that had never ever occurred to me. No I didn't get through the whole book. I only made it to somewhere in Alma. I was thinking about your temple comments and the though that kept coming back to me is that Christ was a rule breaker. He did it constantly, breaking the dogma of the church. It is what drove the church leaders crazy. Sometimes He broke the rules to help a person in need. But sometimes He broke the rules just to show that it is not the rules that is the gospel. For me, one of the greatest examples of this was when he "broke the sabbath" by picking corn. Then He made this statement. "The sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath." What a concept. The church is made for us, not us for the church. When the church rules prevent that from happening, then I think it gets into dangerous territory. Your baptismal comments also hit home. For a while I was the ward mission leader. As such, I was responsible for running most baptisms. I remember being out in the yard working like crazy to get some yard work done. It was the only day I could do it. Sometimes I would head to the baptism with not the best attitude, resenting the interruption of my day. ButI got there. Once the meeting began, there was such a feeling of peace that it always overwhelmed me. Despite my initial attitude, the Spirit was in no way going to let my feelings affect the importance of that baptism for the one being baptized. When someone says, "The church is true", what does that really mean? Does it mean that the prophet and apostles are given revelation on every decision they make? Or does it mean that leaders of the church are trying their very best to make a sincere effort to do what they feel is right, acknowledging that they come to their callings with their own bias and prejudice. Does it mean that the "official" interpretation of every scripture is correct? Or does it mean this is how the church feels about a certain doctrine right now. I think how someone answers the statement "The church is true" tells a lot about their relationship with God. When I came out to my family, they pretty much shut me out of the family for about the next 15 years. I am not alone in finding myself in this situation. Fortunately I found friends that became my family. They were the ones that invited me to Thanksgiving dinners. They are the ones that I shared Christmas with. They were the ones that shared my birthday, and rejoiced in things that happened to me. And they were there for me without hesitation when I needed help. In the past 2 years, my family has decided once again to include me into the family. It is nice to once again be a brother and a son (fortunately my children always kept me in their lives). But I still celebrate with the "family" that was there for me when I had no one else. And it is them that I trust the most when I need help. My relationship with the church is very similar. At some point, I could no longer be a part of the church. It was largely my choice. I couldn't accept the rules that the church felt was more important than what my needs were. I understand that. But I have found a relationship with God and with the scriptures that I didn't have in the church. It is more the church of the climbing tree than the church of the safe path. I honestly have learned so many important lessons by being forced to find my own path. I don't know if I would have been able to do that if I wasn't gay. Perhaps that is why I feel like being gay is more of a blessing than a weakness that has to over come. Maybe that is why the idea of being straight in the next life scares the heck out of me. I am not telling anyone to leave the church. But I would also say that the church doesn't save you. The church was not created for God, it was created for you. If the church is helping you with your relationship with God, then take from it what helps you the most. And even if you leave the church, you can still take all the lessons and teachings that help you with your relationship with God. No one can take that away from you. 3
Tacenda Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, california boy said: This is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read. I feel like you have written every sentence about me. I can't tell you how exact this resonates with me. Perhaps that will scare you. I feel this sure witness of what you say. My experience in the gospel is so much like this. When I read the scriptures, I am always looking for the underlining message. What is really being said here. I once decided to read the Book of Mormon and write something about every single verse. Yeah crazy huh. But what an experience that was. I thought about things that had never ever occurred to me. No I didn't get through the whole book. I only made it to somewhere in Alma. I was thinking about your temple comments and the though that kept coming back to me is that Christ was a rule breaker. He did it constantly, breaking the dogma of the church. It is what drove the church leaders crazy. Sometimes He broke the rules to help a person in need. But sometimes He broke the rules just to show that it is not the rules that is the gospel. For me, one of the greatest examples of this was when he "broke the sabbath" by picking corn. Then He made this statement. "The sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath." What a concept. The church is made for us, not us for the church. When the church rules prevent that from happening, then I think it gets into dangerous territory. Your baptismal comments also hit home. For a while I was the ward mission leader. As such, I was responsible for running most baptisms. I remember being out in the yard working like crazy to get some yard work done. It was the only day I could do it. Sometimes I would head to the baptism with not the best attitude, resenting the interruption of my day. ButI got there. Once the meeting began, there was such a feeling of peace that it always overwhelmed me. Despite my initial attitude, the Spirit was in no way going to let my feelings affect the importance of that baptism for the one being baptized. When someone says, "The church is true", what does that really mean? Does it mean that the prophet and apostles are given revelation on every decision they make? Or does it mean that leaders of the church are trying their very best to make a sincere effort to do what they feel is right, acknowledging that they come to their callings with their own bias and prejudice. Does it mean that the "official" interpretation of every scripture is correct? Or does it mean this is how the church feels about a certain doctrine right now. I think how someone answers the statement "The church is true" tells a lot about their relationship with God. When I came out to my family, they pretty much shut me out of the family for about the next 15 years. I am not alone in finding myself in this situation. Fortunately I found friends that became my family. They were the ones that invited me to Thanksgiving dinners. They are the ones that I shared Christmas with. They were the ones that shared my birthday, and rejoiced in things that happened to me. And they were there for me without hesitation when I needed help. In the past 2 years, my family has decided once again to include me into the family. It is nice to once again be a brother and a son (fortunately my children always kept me in their lives). But I still celebrate with the "family" that was there for me when I had no one else. And it is them that I trust the most when I need help. My relationship with the church is very similar. At some point, I could no longer be a part of the church. It was largely my choice. I couldn't accept the rules that the church felt was more important than what my needs were. I understand that. But I have found a relationship with God and with the scriptures that I didn't have in the church. It is more the church of the climbing tree than the church of the safe path. I honestly have learned so many important lessons by being forced to find my own path. I don't know if I would have been able to do that if I wasn't gay. Perhaps that is why I feel like being gay is more of a blessing than a weakness that has to over come. Maybe that is why the idea of being straight in the next life scares the heck out of me. I am not telling anyone to leave the church. But I would also say that the church doesn't save you. The church was not created for God, it was created for you. If the church is helping you with your relationship with God, then take from it what helps you the most. And even if you leave the church, you can still take all the lessons and teachings that help you with your relationship with God. No one can take that away from you. Beautiful CB!
Rain Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, california boy said: This is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read. I feel like you have written every sentence about me. I can't tell you how exact this resonates with me. Perhaps that will scare you. I feel this sure witness of what you say. My experience in the gospel is so much like this. When I read the scriptures, I am always looking for the underlining message. What is really being said here. I once decided to read the Book of Mormon and write something about every single verse. Yeah crazy huh. But what an experience that was. I thought about things that had never ever occurred to me. No I didn't get through the whole book. I only made it to somewhere in Alma. I was thinking about your temple comments and the though that kept coming back to me is that Christ was a rule breaker. He did it constantly, breaking the dogma of the church. It is what drove the church leaders crazy. Sometimes He broke the rules to help a person in need. But sometimes He broke the rules just to show that it is not the rules that is the gospel. For me, one of the greatest examples of this was when he "broke the sabbath" by picking corn. Then He made this statement. "The sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath." What a concept. The church is made for us, not us for the church. When the church rules prevent that from happening, then I think it gets into dangerous territory. Your baptismal comments also hit home. For a while I was the ward mission leader. As such, I was responsible for running most baptisms. I remember being out in the yard working like crazy to get some yard work done. It was the only day I could do it. Sometimes I would head to the baptism with not the best attitude, resenting the interruption of my day. ButI got there. Once the meeting began, there was such a feeling of peace that it always overwhelmed me. Despite my initial attitude, the Spirit was in no way going to let my feelings affect the importance of that baptism for the one being baptized. When someone says, "The church is true", what does that really mean? Does it mean that the prophet and apostles are given revelation on every decision they make? Or does it mean that leaders of the church are trying their very best to make a sincere effort to do what they feel is right, acknowledging that they come to their callings with their own bias and prejudice. Does it mean that the "official" interpretation of every scripture is correct? Or does it mean this is how the church feels about a certain doctrine right now. I think how someone answers the statement "The church is true" tells a lot about their relationship with God. When I came out to my family, they pretty much shut me out of the family for about the next 15 years. I am not alone in finding myself in this situation. Fortunately I found friends that became my family. They were the ones that invited me to Thanksgiving dinners. They are the ones that I shared Christmas with. They were the ones that shared my birthday, and rejoiced in things that happened to me. And they were there for me without hesitation when I needed help. In the past 2 years, my family has decided once again to include me into the family. It is nice to once again be a brother and a son (fortunately my children always kept me in their lives). But I still celebrate with the "family" that was there for me when I had no one else. And it is them that I trust the most when I need help. My relationship with the church is very similar. At some point, I could no longer be a part of the church. It was largely my choice. I couldn't accept the rules that the church felt was more important than what my needs were. I understand that. But I have found a relationship with God and with the scriptures that I didn't have in the church. It is more the church of the climbing tree than the church of the safe path. I honestly have learned so many important lessons by being forced to find my own path. I don't know if I would have been able to do that if I wasn't gay. Perhaps that is why I feel like being gay is more of a blessing than a weakness that has to over come. Maybe that is why the idea of being straight in the next life scares the heck out of me. I am not telling anyone to leave the church. But I would also say that the church doesn't save you. The church was not created for God, it was created for you. If the church is helping you with your relationship with God, then take from it what helps you the most. And even if you leave the church, you can still take all the lessons and teachings that help you with your relationship with God. No one can take that away from you. This may seem argumentative, but it really isn't meant to be. I think about my diabetes and my constant struggle with overeating. I have learned so much from this that I too would have a hard time learning without. It is interesting to me that you you count being gay more as a blessing than a weakness. I too count diabetes/eating to be a spiritual blessing, but still feel the eating is a weakness to overcome. I don't see Christ as a rule breaker. I see him as a Heavenly rule follower, showing us eternal rules we were meant to follow and how much more important they are to follow than the imperfect rules men set up so when they contend with each other he follows the higher law rather than men's rules. 2
Maidservant Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 3 hours ago, california boy said: This is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read. I feel like you have written every sentence about me. I can't tell you how exact this resonates with me. Perhaps that will scare you. I feel this sure witness of what you say. My experience in the gospel is so much like this. When I read the scriptures, I am always looking for the underlining message. What is really being said here. I once decided to read the Book of Mormon and write something about every single verse. Yeah crazy huh. But what an experience that was. I thought about things that had never ever occurred to me. No I didn't get through the whole book. I only made it to somewhere in Alma. I was thinking about your temple comments and the though that kept coming back to me is that Christ was a rule breaker. He did it constantly, breaking the dogma of the church. It is what drove the church leaders crazy. Sometimes He broke the rules to help a person in need. But sometimes He broke the rules just to show that it is not the rules that is the gospel. For me, one of the greatest examples of this was when he "broke the sabbath" by picking corn. Then He made this statement. "The sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath." What a concept. The church is made for us, not us for the church. When the church rules prevent that from happening, then I think it gets into dangerous territory. Your baptismal comments also hit home. For a while I was the ward mission leader. As such, I was responsible for running most baptisms. I remember being out in the yard working like crazy to get some yard work done. It was the only day I could do it. Sometimes I would head to the baptism with not the best attitude, resenting the interruption of my day. ButI got there. Once the meeting began, there was such a feeling of peace that it always overwhelmed me. Despite my initial attitude, the Spirit was in no way going to let my feelings affect the importance of that baptism for the one being baptized. When someone says, "The church is true", what does that really mean? Does it mean that the prophet and apostles are given revelation on every decision they make? Or does it mean that leaders of the church are trying their very best to make a sincere effort to do what they feel is right, acknowledging that they come to their callings with their own bias and prejudice. Does it mean that the "official" interpretation of every scripture is correct? Or does it mean this is how the church feels about a certain doctrine right now. I think how someone answers the statement "The church is true" tells a lot about their relationship with God. When I came out to my family, they pretty much shut me out of the family for about the next 15 years. I am not alone in finding myself in this situation. Fortunately I found friends that became my family. They were the ones that invited me to Thanksgiving dinners. They are the ones that I shared Christmas with. They were the ones that shared my birthday, and rejoiced in things that happened to me. And they were there for me without hesitation when I needed help. In the past 2 years, my family has decided once again to include me into the family. It is nice to once again be a brother and a son (fortunately my children always kept me in their lives). But I still celebrate with the "family" that was there for me when I had no one else. And it is them that I trust the most when I need help. My relationship with the church is very similar. At some point, I could no longer be a part of the church. It was largely my choice. I couldn't accept the rules that the church felt was more important than what my needs were. I understand that. But I have found a relationship with God and with the scriptures that I didn't have in the church. It is more the church of the climbing tree than the church of the safe path. I honestly have learned so many important lessons by being forced to find my own path. I don't know if I would have been able to do that if I wasn't gay. Perhaps that is why I feel like being gay is more of a blessing than a weakness that has to over come. Maybe that is why the idea of being straight in the next life scares the heck out of me. I am not telling anyone to leave the church. But I would also say that the church doesn't save you. The church was not created for God, it was created for you. If the church is helping you with your relationship with God, then take from it what helps you the most. And even if you leave the church, you can still take all the lessons and teachings that help you with your relationship with God. No one can take that away from you. Thank you for sharing, California. This is very beautiful also. I do not believe in a 'final judgment' where we file off into different camps, a la 'Ding, ding, ding, yoooouuuuu got it right, celestial kingdom for you!" or "bzzzzzzz, you got it wrong, Perdition on the left!!! Keep it moving folks!!" Ha ha ha ha. I think our judgment is who we become. That's it. Our judgment is what we are living every single second of every day. And we have the opportunity to keep progressing. We learn by our EXPERIENCE. And most of the time, that is very TOUGH experience, the kind where we screw up even. Or tough experience where we have to follow what is in us, even if we feel like we are leaving every thing familiar behind. Or the kind of experience when we submit against every fiber of our being and understanding, trusting that the submission will bring a fruit that we don't see yet. All of those experiences become us and our judgment is whether or not we can live with that person. God is always going to love us, find us, work with us, in time or eternity. God doesn't change. But suffers long with us as our 'eyes' slowly get opened. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 12 hours ago, sunstoned said: Robert, I have never said that he was wrong on everything. In fact, that is a straw man meant to deflect. What I said he was a racist, and it the area of race, he was very wrong. You know his teachings on this matter as well as I do. I replied to Five Solas on one single issue of de facto slavery in America for a century following the Emancipation Proclamation. You spoke to him on that issue as follows: Quote Agreed. No one today "clearly agrees with Brigham Young" on issues of slavery. For whatever reason, he was a racist. He said and preached terrible racist things. IMO it is best for both leaders and latter day saints to just agree that teachings of the past were were wrong, we apologize and we are moving on. That blanket statement was false, and you failed to accept the actual sorry history in America of the systematic enslavement of Black people under color of Jim Crow, etc. I did not in anyway condemn Lincoln, or try to justify Brigham's racism. In fact I have frequently condemned Brigham's racism on this board (and emphatically took the Orson Pratt position instead). So much for your phony straw man claim. I give no quarter for either you or Brigham in the formulation of false teachings -- in either history or religion.. 1
california boy Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Maidservant said: Thank you for sharing, California. This is very beautiful also. I do not believe in a 'final judgment' where we file off into different camps, a la 'Ding, ding, ding, yoooouuuuu got it right, celestial kingdom for you!" or "bzzzzzzz, you got it wrong, Perdition on the left!!! Keep it moving folks!!" Ha ha ha ha. I think our judgment is who we become. That's it. Our judgment is what we are living every single second of every day. And we have the opportunity to keep progressing. We learn by our EXPERIENCE. And most of the time, that is very TOUGH experience, the kind where we screw up even. Or tough experience where we have to follow what is in us, even if we feel like we are leaving every thing familiar behind. Or the kind of experience when we submit against every fiber of our being and understanding, trusting that the submission will bring a fruit that we don't see yet. All of those experiences become us and our judgment is whether or not we can live with that person. God is always going to love us, find us, work with us, in time or eternity. God doesn't change. But suffers long with us as our 'eyes' slowly get opened. I feel like I have found a soul mate who understands exactly how I feel about spiritual things. It has taken me a long time and a crooked course to come to these same conclusions. I don't know exactly what happens when we die. But I have learned that I can trust God. And I leave my eternity completely in His hands. He is not through with me yet. Life is a beautiful experience. Our tapestry is woven from many threads. Some not of our own choosing. But when you step back you see something beautiful and even awe inspiring. I thank God every day for the life I have been given to live and the ones that surround me with love. 1
california boy Posted July 26, 2017 Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Rain said: This may seem argumentative, but it really isn't meant to be. I think about my diabetes and my constant struggle with overeating. I have learned so much from this that I too would have a hard time learning without. It is interesting to me that you you count being gay more as a blessing than a weakness. I too count diabetes/eating to be a spiritual blessing, but still feel the eating is a weakness to overcome. I don't see Christ as a rule breaker. I see him as a Heavenly rule follower, showing us eternal rules we were meant to follow and how much more important they are to follow than the imperfect rules men set up so when they contend with each other he follows the higher law rather than men's rules. I agree with your post. And I hope that we have the wisdom and inspiration to know the difference between the higher laws of God and the rules of men however well meaning they are meant to be.
sunstoned Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I replied to Five Solas on one single issue of de facto slavery in America for a century following the Emancipation Proclamation. You spoke to him on that issue as follows: That blanket statement was false, and you failed to accept the actual sorry history in America of the systematic enslavement of Black people under color of Jim Crow, etc. I did not in anyway condemn Lincoln, or try to justify Brigham's racism. In fact I have frequently condemned Brigham's racism on this board (and emphatically took the Orson Pratt position instead). So much for your phony straw man claim. I give no quarter for either you or Brigham in the formulation of false teachings -- in either history or religion.. If you read what I said in context you would know that I was speaking solely about the racist policy and nothing else. This had nothing to do with you or your beliefs. So I find it surprising that you are now playing the victim card. Yes America does have a sorry history of racism. But it does give many pause that a religious leader, one who claims to speak for god, would not be a little more enlightened and perhaps lead the way. After all the Quakers were not afraid to stand for higher principles. They actively opposed slavery and they worked to abolish it. They didn't care about public opinion or political fallout. And amazing enough, they did this all without a prophet. At the same time we have our prophet legalizing slavery in the Utah territory, and stating this about slavery "We consider it of Divine institution, and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants."* * References: When Salt Lake City Calls, Rocky Hulse (pg 338) Christensen, J. B. (1957). Negro slavery in the utah territory. The Phylon Quarterly, 18(3), 298-305. Lythgoe, D. L. (1967). Negro slavery and Mormon doctrine. Western Humanities Review, 21(4), 327. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 28 minutes ago, sunstoned said: If you read what I said in context you would know that I was speaking solely about the racist policy and nothing else. This had nothing to do with you or your beliefs. So I find it surprising that you are now playing the victim card. Yes America does have a sorry history of racism. But it does give many pause that a religious leader, one who claims to speak for god, would not be a little more enlightened and perhaps lead the way. After all the Quakers were not afraid to stand for higher principles. They actively opposed slavery and they worked to abolish it. They didn't care about public opinion or political fallout. And amazing enough, they did this all without a prophet. At the same time we have our prophet legalizing slavery in the Utah territory, and stating this about slavery "We consider it of Divine institution, and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants."* * References: When Salt Lake City Calls, Rocky Hulse (pg 338) Christensen, J. B. (1957). Negro slavery in the utah territory. The Phylon Quarterly, 18(3), 298-305. Lythgoe, D. L. (1967). Negro slavery and Mormon doctrine. Western Humanities Review, 21(4), 327. You again deliberately miss the point and obfuscate. Unlike your ancestors, mine were ardent abolitionists and worked the underground railroad. Unlike you, I participated directly in the civil rights movement in the 60s, and have actively been involved in civil liberties work since then. I have no patience with racists and liars, regardless of which side that they pretend to take in the debate. An honest man simply has no reason to lie about someone, even if he dislikes aspects of what he did and stood for. I quoted your specific words, which were inaccurate. Instead of apologizing, just like Trump you double down. This has nothing to do with me or my beliefs, but has everything to do with your a priori ideological need to claim that 100% of everything said by Brigham was false. Even Satan could not meet that claim. Once again: Brigham correctly observed that the slaves would not be freed by the U.S. Govt, and he was correct. Maybe he guessed correctly. Perhaps he viewed govt with a cynical eye. But, for whatever reason, he was correct. Prove him wrong, stoned. Just stop hemming and hawwing.
Maidservant Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 On 7/26/2017 at 4:24 AM, hagoth7 said: Honor the brethren. Always. Regardless of the current state of one's testimony. Even if they weren't men of God (they are), it would be dangerous to denegrate them. The church is our spiritual parent, just as the place(s) we are raised...our temporal parent. Honor...father and mother...that the days... Fail to honor either our spiritual or natural heritage, and it's toxic to your soul. Wonderful. I shall ponder this more. I have often thought this: when I become a flower, even if it looks nothing like the seed, I should know that I became a flower only because of the seed.
sunstoned Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You again deliberately miss the point and obfuscate. Unlike your ancestors, mine were ardent abolitionists and worked the underground railroad. Unlike you, I participated directly in the civil rights movement in the 60s, and have actively been involved in civil liberties work since then. I have no patience with racists and liars, regardless of which side that they pretend to take in the debate. An honest man simply has no reason to lie about someone, even if he dislikes aspects of what he did and stood for. I quoted your specific words, which were inaccurate. Instead of apologizing, just like Trump you double down. This has nothing to do with me or my beliefs, but has everything to do with your a priori ideological need to claim that 100% of everything said by Brigham was false. Even Satan could not meet that claim. Once again: Brigham correctly observed that the slaves would not be freed by the U.S. Govt, and he was correct. Maybe he guessed correctly. Perhaps he viewed govt with a cynical eye. But, for whatever reason, he was correct. Prove him wrong, stoned. Just stop hemming and hawwing. You have no idea of who my ancestors are. You have no idea of who I am and what I stand for. You arrogant judgments have offended me. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 14 minutes ago, sunstoned said: You have no idea of who my ancestors are. You have no idea of who I am and what I stand for. You arrogant judgments have offended me. Of course you are offended and ashamed of your and your ancestors' failure to be anxiously and directly engaged in the civil rights cause. You prefer to hem and haw, instead of dealing with the issue we were discussing.
sunstoned Posted July 28, 2017 Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/27/2017 at 3:40 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Of course you are offended and ashamed of your and your ancestors' failure to be anxiously and directly engaged in the civil rights cause. You prefer to hem and haw, instead of dealing with the issue we were discussing. You don't even know who I am or what my family line is. But you say these mean things, which are lies. You are a liar. poster removed
Tacenda Posted July 28, 2017 Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/26/2017 at 9:35 AM, Maidservant said: Thank you for sharing, California. This is very beautiful also. I do not believe in a 'final judgment' where we file off into different camps, a la 'Ding, ding, ding, yoooouuuuu got it right, celestial kingdom for you!" or "bzzzzzzz, you got it wrong, Perdition on the left!!! Keep it moving folks!!" Ha ha ha ha. I think our judgment is who we become. That's it. Our judgment is what we are living every single second of every day. And we have the opportunity to keep progressing. We learn by our EXPERIENCE. And most of the time, that is very TOUGH experience, the kind where we screw up even. Or tough experience where we have to follow what is in us, even if we feel like we are leaving every thing familiar behind. Or the kind of experience when we submit against every fiber of our being and understanding, trusting that the submission will bring a fruit that we don't see yet. All of those experiences become us and our judgment is whether or not we can live with that person. God is always going to love us, find us, work with us, in time or eternity. God doesn't change. But suffers long with us as our 'eyes' slowly get opened.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 28, 2017 Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/27/2017 at 8:59 PM, sunstoned said: You don't even know who I am or what my family line is. But you say these mean things, which are lies. You are a liar. Not only do you not discuss the issue at hand here, but you make blatant statements without any backing or detail on the background of you and your ancestors -- suggesting that I am a liar. At least do me the courtesy of telling me what bold civil rights activities you and they have been engaged in. And maybe throw in a few lines from regular civil rights songs for good measure. Give us the mise en scene (local color). I'll know if you are faking it. poster removed
california boy Posted July 28, 2017 Posted July 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not only do you not discuss the issue at hand here, but you make blatant statements without any backing or detail on the background of you and your ancestors -- suggesting that I am a liar. At least do me the courtesy of telling me what bold civil rights activities you and they have been engaged in. And maybe throw in a few lines from regular civil rights songs for good measure. Give us the mise en scene (local color). I'll know if you are faking it. Robert, you are no longer talking about the thread. You are personally attacking a poster. It is uncalled for and not what this board is set up to do. You should apologize and move on.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 28, 2017 Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, california boy said: Robert, you are no longer talking about the thread. You are personally attacking a poster. It is uncalled for and not what this board is set up to do. You should apologize and move on. Perhaps, but the guy got on his high horse about people who actively opposed slavery, etc., as though Mormons did no such thing, saying Quote But it does give many pause that a religious leader, one who claims to speak for god, would not be a little more enlightened and perhaps lead the way. After all the Quakers were not afraid to stand for higher principles. They actively opposed slavery and they worked to abolish it. They didn't care about public opinion or political fallout. And amazing enough, they did this all without a prophet. Since I and my ancestors have also been people who gave no quarter to the bigots, I was offended (and not only because I did that as a believing Mormon, but also because Joseph Smith openly opposed slavery and worked to end it), I was offended that he would adopt that negative approach. Only hypocrites make such an unbalanced attack.
california boy Posted July 28, 2017 Posted July 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Perhaps, but the guy got on his high horse about people who actively opposed slavery, etc., as though Mormons did no such thing, saying Since I and my ancestors have also been people who gave no quarter to the bigots, I was offended (and not only because I did that as a believing Mormon, but also because Joseph Smith openly opposed slavery and worked to end it), I was offended that he would adopt that negative approach. Only hypocrites make such an unbalanced attack. I don't think he was attacking you or your ancestors. He was stating something that he believed. If you thought that what he believed was in error, you should have addressed the issue. Attacking someone personally does not move the discussion forward nor it is likely to change his mind. Just my opinion. 2
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