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poptart

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Just curious, how well does Rome get on with the LDS church?  Is there any animosity on Rome's end?  sure they're not too thrilled with having a temple built in their back yard, yet charity wise they sure work great.  Just curious what others experiences have been.

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There's a ~billion Catholics in this world, so you can get every reaction with that many people.  Speaking institutionally, fairly recently (2004?) the Catholic church decided that LDS aren't Christian due to Trinitarian differences.  There's also be some disagreements over LDS getting access to Catholic baptismal records.  The Rome temple isn't really in St Peter's backyard, it's like 90 minutes away.  Also such a small percentage of Catholics live in Europe nowadays.  

With Catholics individuals (at least in the US) I find that most are laid back and friendly to LDS folks.   

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12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There's a ~billion Catholics in this world, so you can get every reaction with that many people.  Speaking institutionally, fairly recently (2004?) the Catholic church decided that LDS aren't Christian due to Trinitarian differences.  There's also be some disagreements over LDS getting access to Catholic baptismal records.  The Rome temple isn't really in St Peter's backyard, it's like 90 minutes away.  Also such a small percentage of Catholics live in Europe nowadays.  

With Catholics individuals (at least in the US) I find that most are laid back and friendly to LDS folks.   

That much I knew, since the LDS are not trinitarians, well that kind of leaves you out.  Also can attest to the whole baptismal record thing, the Catholics can be guarded when it comes to that stuff. 
To be fair, Europeans don't profess their beliefs the same way they do in the states, while they may say they're not Catholic, they sure send their kids to Catholic schools if they live in the country side.  Here in the states people lie about religion all the time because it's socially/politically expedient to do so.

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11 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

There's a ~billion Catholics in this world, so you can get every reaction with that many people.  Speaking institutionally, fairly recently (2004?) the Catholic church decided that LDS aren't Christian due to Trinitarian differences.  There's also be some disagreements over LDS getting access to Catholic baptismal records.  The Rome temple isn't really in St Peter's backyard, it's like 90 minutes away.  Also such a small percentage of Catholics live in Europe nowadays.  

With Catholics individuals (at least in the US) I find that most are laid back and friendly to LDS folks.   

Not sure if they think we're not Christians -- but because of the Trinity issue they won't accept LDS converts to Catholicism without re-baptism, but they will for other Trinitarian converts.  But then again, we won't accept them without rebaptism either, so it's fair.

If you read the posts of our resident Catholics here at MDDB, MisereNobis and 3DOP, they certainly seem friendly enough.  On my mission I ran into the occasional Catholic clergyman and I never noticed any animosity.  When I served as the branch president of an LDS serviceman's branch in Germany back in the 80's, the chief chaplain of the installation we were at was a Catholic priest (and a US Army chaplain), and he was perfectly friendly and helpful to our little congregation.  I remember him particularly because he smoked big cigars and kept a quite friendly bulldog in his office.

Edited by Stargazer
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According to the Catechism, if they can't accept our baptism, iirc this means we are not considered part of the Body of Christ and technically not Christian by that definition.

Otoh, that doesn't stop Catholics from accepting we are trying to follow Christ in our own highly heretical and possibly blasphemous fashion.

Edited by Calm
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37 minutes ago, Calm said:

According to the Catechism, if they can't accept our baptism, iirc this means we are not considered part of the Body of Christ and technically not Christian by that definition.

Otoh, that doesn't stop Catholics from accepting we are trying to follow Christ in our own highly heretical and possibly blasphemous fashion.

I think I may have just found a new motto to live by:

"Following Christ in my own highly heretical and possibly blasphemous fashion."

Has a nice ring to it.

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The Catholic hierarchy has been very cordial to the LDS hierarchy, accepting them and allowing them to speak in conferences on the family and such in recent years, in Rome, Philadelphia, etc.  Interfaith conferences are regarded as normal among Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons all over America.

Even at the end of World War II, when a young Mormon officer was in charge of the unit organizing the new German government, Roman Catholic Germans would not accept him until he had an audience with the Pope -- which was promptly arranged for him.  The Roman Catholic Church is not afraid of a young, small upstart church.

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I don't think the Catholic Church is too keen on the LDS.

For example the way the LDS perceive the Godhead is different to the Roman Catholic Church.

The father and the son appeared to Joseph Smith in the flesh wouldn't appeal much to the pope.

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"The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense that to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began…”  Joseph Smith

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4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

"The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense that to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began…”  Joseph Smith

As a young man, I had the privilege of dating an amazing  young lady who was Catholic. Long after we had stopped dating, she planned a trip to northern Europe, while I was on a mission there, and sent me a letter asking if she could drop in for a visit, or more accurately, if I would come see her.

With my eye on the ball of strict rules,  instead of on the love of Christ, I was a complete dork and thought/assumed/presumed, well that *of course* couldn't possibly be proper to walk and visit or sit and break bread with her while being an all-important missionary, and I *didn't even bother to ask* my mission president his opinion. Thinking that he wouldn't allow any such thing. And like a completely tone-deaf/insensitive moron, I simply let her complete her lengthy sightseeing trip to Europe and back without a word from me. (As I recall, I ddin't get the letter in time to write her back at her American address before she hopped a plane to cross the Atlantic...but I didn't talk to the miss pres about trying to track her down while in Europe.) The same mission president who later allowed a man from my home stake whose daughter I had once dated to drop in unnanounced to treat me and my companion to dinner. The same mission president who suggested, not long after my comp and I baptized a valiant young lady, that  I consider staying the rest of my days in that country. I left my heart (the tiny shriveled, raisin-sized one), with the people of that land, but stepped away. One foot in, one foot out. Time to turn myself about...

As a young man, our family was extended the kind invitation to attend the Catholic baptism of an older cousin's baby. Not having a dash of charity that day, I got a gigle fit during a cerremony they deemed sacred. Dorkstep.

I cringe now, thinking of all that. Prim and proper. And *completely* out of tune with the very heart and soul of the message. Not seeing the forest for the trees. Or precious trees for the forest. 

Why I write this? Mormon 9:31. In your dealings with people of other faiths, please be wiser and more respectful and caring than I had been.

Cue: Lexi (Power of the Dream)

Edited by hagoth7
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2 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I cringe now, thinking of all that. Prim and proper. And *completely* out of tune with the very heart and soul of the message. Not seeing the forest for the trees. Or precious tree for the forest. 

Why I write this? Mormon 9:31. In your dealings with people of other faiths, please be wiser and more respectful and caring than I had been.

Cue: Lexi (Power of the Dream)

As Lexi Walker said, these are the lessons we must learn. The Gospel is so vast, whether Catholic, Mormon, Jew or any other belief, the school is the same.  We will find the same lessons to learn, the same Savior to comfort us, and the same sacred Temple ordinances to turn the key to our Heavenly home.

Yes, and a merciful Heavenly Father sees the friends we may have offended and feels after them.  And He sees you kicking yourself. His eye is on the sparrow.  I believe that, in the eons before us, we will sit down with our beloved friends, correct any misperceptions and mistakes and have a good laugh about our dorkiness.  In the mean time, we embrace the Savior seeking the healing comfort of His Atonement for us. That's the silver lining, isn't it!

I had an interesting experience similar to yours. In Junior High school, Patty Ryan was my best friend.  Every day in our class together, we would talk about great and important things.  We discussed things that were funny, things that were sad, everything.  

One day, I shared that we would be moving when school was out, but my parents had sworn me to secrecy, so don't tell anyone.  Later that week, my neighbor said "I hear you are moving." "What?" I asked, incredulous. "Who told you?"

She said "I was talking with Patty the other day, and she told me. I asked why you had told her, and not me because I am your neighbor.  Patty said 'Oh, Jim tells me personal things like that.'"

The next day, I cut her off.  She was no longer my friend.  She had betrayed my betrayed confidence.

About ten or so years later, when the Gospel came into our lives, I was convicted.  Dork doesn't begin to describe my shame and embarrassment. I got on the phone.  First I tried to find her.  Then her family.  Nothing.  I told Heavenly Father this could not stand.  I had to find her.  I pleaded and prayed.  That turned to fasting.

Some time later,  we took our children camping at Staircase out on the Olympic Peninsula.  Driving down the windy road, one of our daughters complained about an upset stomach. We stopped at the old house now convenience store at the bottom of the hill for some pop to settle her stomach.  She said "Dad, I'm okay.  We can go." But we went in, just the same.

There, standing behind the cash register out in the middle of nowhere was Patty Ryan.  I asked her husband, who was also behind the counter, if I could speak with her outside.  I said "Patty, I am so sorry for the way I treated you. I have actually prayed for the chance to apologize to you, my true friend. That should never had happened."  "I know," she said.  "I knew it was just kid's stuff.  I haven't thought about it in all these years. Don't worry about it.  I always knew you were a good guy."

And that was it.  My idiotic dorky hurtful embarrassment resolved.  She hadn't carried the hurt I caused as I had.  And my faith and gratitude for answered prayer was confirmed once again with the peace of Christ.  And do you know, Hagoth, it has served me all these years as a reminder that nothing goes unnoticed to our merciful Father.  I have high confidence that all these things will be resolved one day.  Forgiveness, mercy and joy will reign. And gratitude for the lessons learned. We learn from our mistakes, as do those we hurt, harm and embarrass. We learn faith, forgiveness and redemption.  All things truly do work together for good to those who are the called, according to His purposes.

Cue: The Fool's Prayer by Edward Rowland Sill

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/sill01.html

Edited by Meerkat
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4 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

As a young man, I had the privilege of dating an amazing  young lady who was Catholic. Long after we had stopped dating, she planned a trip to northern Europe, while I was on a mission there, and sent me a letter asking if she could drop in for a visit, or more accurately, if I would come see her.

With my eye on the ball of strict rules,  instead of on the love of Christ, I was a complete dork and thought/assumed/presumed, well that *of course* couldn't possibly be proper to walk and visit or sit and break bread with her while being an all-important missionary, and I *didn't even bother to ask* my mission president his opinion. Thinking that he wouldn't allow any such thing. And like a completely tone-deaf/insensitive moron, I simply let her complete her lengthy sightseeing trip to Europe and back without a word from me. (As I recall, I ddin't get the letter in time to write her back at her American address before she hopped a plane to cross the Atlantic...but I didn't talk to the miss pres about trying to track her down while in Europe.) The same mission president who later allowed a man from my home stake whose daughter I had once dated to drop in unnanounced to treat me and my companion to dinner. The same mission president who suggested, not long after my comp and I baptized a valiant young lady, that  I consider staying the rest of my days in that country. I left my heart (the tiny shriveled, raisin-sized one), with the people of that land, but stepped away. One foot in, one foot out. Time to turn myself about...

As a young man, our family was extended the kind invitation to attend the Catholic baptism of an older cousin's baby. Not having a dash of charity that day, I got a gigle fit during a cerremony they deemed sacred. Dorkstep.

I cringe now, thinking of all that. Prim and proper. And *completely* out of tune with the very heart and soul of the message. Not seeing the forest for the trees. Or precious trees for the forest. 

Why I write this? Mormon 9:31. In your dealings with people of other faiths, please be wiser and more respectful and caring than I had been.

Cue: Lexi (Power of the Dream)

We have all been there, and all of us have deep regrets of that sort.

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10 hours ago, Meerkat said:

"The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense that to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began…”  Joseph Smith

Then...what of the Whitmers that left? What happened to that branch? David Whitmer was reportedly called to be an apostle before 1830 with the same calling that Paul had been called...to preach to the Gentiles. And David was in the circle with Oliver and Joseph to ordain some if not all of the 12 in 1835. 

Edited by hagoth7
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11 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Then...what of the Whitmers that left? What happened to that branch? David Whitmer was reportedly called to be an apostle before 1830 with the same calling that Paul had been called...to preach to the Gentiles. And David was in the circle with Oliver and Joseph to ordain some if not all of the 12 in 1835. 

I'm not a scholar and I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm not sure of the date of Joseph Smith's statement or if it has a bearing on your question.

There were many apostates as the persecutions heated up.  David Whitmer left the Church and condemned it and the off shoots that followed.  His was an unusual apostasy in that he was one of the Three Witnesses who saw the angel, the plates and heard the voice.  According to accounts I've read, he never denied that testimony.  Many early LDS apostates came back.  David Whitmer was not among them.

My take on Joseph Smith's statement was that he felt sympathy for the Catholic Church, more so than the Protestants.  I can see our doctrine of faith and works is more in harmony with the Catholics than the Protestants. But the Protestant reformation also prepared the minds of the people to question indulgences and other Catholic doctrines and consider new ideas.  The Printing Press helped prepare for the Restoration, etc.  So these things are interesting, but further evidence to me that a restoration was important and necessary.

 

Edited by Meerkat
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On 7/20/2017 at 11:39 PM, Meerkat said:

I'm not a scholar and I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm not sure of the date of Joseph Smith's statement or if it has a bearing on your question.

There were many apostates as the persecutions heated up.  David Whitmer left the Church and condemned it and the off shoots that followed.  His was an unusual apostasy in that he was one of the Three Witnesses who saw the angel, the plates and heard the voice.  According to accounts I've read, he never denied that testimony.  Many early LDS apostates came back.  David Whitmer was not among them.

My take on Joseph Smith's statement was that he felt sympathy for the Catholic Church, more so than the Protestants.  I can see our doctrine of faith and works is more in harmony with the Catholics than the Protestants. But the Protestant reformation also prepared the minds of the people to question indulgences and other Catholic doctrines and consider new ideas.  The Printing Press helped prepare for the Restoration, etc.  So these things are interesting, but further evidence to me that a restoration was important and necessary.

 

I can say that like many of my old friends one thing that drove us to scholarship was not only growing up in a very poor, violent unstable enviroment is wanting to know why, why were we denied the same opportunities those before us had?  Those who had it easy, had things handed to them and never ever in their whole lives asked why.  One thing I can see is that like the LDS, Rome doesn't go with Sola scriptura , you still have to work towards your salvation.  To be fair the church still has indulgences, you get them for doing things like rosaries, saying certain prayers, etc.  Catch is, if you're in a state of mortal sin it's null and void, you have to repent first.  One big misconception a lot of people on this side of the pond have is that the indulgences the church was selling was an automatic pass, it wasn't.  Granted, the ones they were selling at the time gave you a lot of leverage, it was not a one shot deal. 

You know, considering how things are being woefully ignorant is not really a good idea, ever heard of the 30 years war?  That was one of the affects of the reformation.  millions died, Germany lost half its population and the after affects were felt for long afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

I've met many religious people here LDS and other various sects of protestant who due to entitlement and probably prosperity gospel that the reformation was the almighty doing his thing leading up to whatever flavor of protestantism they adhere to gaining a foothold here and its eventual success.  Kind of reminds me of how people pray for their favorite football team to win the superbowl and if/when they do, it's Gods will.  They never bother to read up on the after affects nor care to because it doesn't affect them, yet.  My First GF was LDS from Japan and back then the LDS church would wisely tell people to store food, nowadays the LDS I know are very reluctant to tell anyone just how much they have (and in the case of my friends the guns and ammo they have been stockpiling for years)  for obvious reasons, if/when the bubble bursts and we go into a real depression?  There is going to be so much looting it's scary.  Guess what?  That's more or less how the 30 years war played out early on, the Protestants destroyed catholic churches, stole anything of value and just raped and pillaged along the way which was met with a logical response, military moving in and killing a lot of people.  Even Luther condemned what the peasants had done, you are to obey your leaders.  From what i've seen of contemporary American culture we won't have someone that level headed if things get bad. 

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17 hours ago, poptart said:

I can say that like many of my old friends one thing that drove us to scholarship was not only growing up in a very poor, violent unstable enviroment is wanting to know why, why were we denied the same opportunities those before us had?  Those who had it easy, had things handed to them and never ever in their whole lives asked why.  One thing I can see is that like the LDS, Rome doesn't go with Sola scriptura , you still have to work towards your salvation.  To be fair the church still has indulgences, you get them for doing things like rosaries, saying certain prayers, etc.  Catch is, if you're in a state of mortal sin it's null and void, you have to repent first.  One big misconception a lot of people on this side of the pond have is that the indulgences the church was selling was an automatic pass, it wasn't.  Granted, the ones they were selling at the time gave you a lot of leverage, it was not a one shot deal. 

You know, considering how things are being woefully ignorant is not really a good idea, ever heard of the 30 years war?  That was one of the affects of the reformation.  millions died, Germany lost half its population and the after affects were felt for long afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

I've met many religious people here LDS and other various sects of protestant who due to entitlement and probably prosperity gospel that the reformation was the almighty doing his thing leading up to whatever flavor of protestantism they adhere to gaining a foothold here and its eventual success.  Kind of reminds me of how people pray for their favorite football team to win the superbowl and if/when they do, it's Gods will.  They never bother to read up on the after affects nor care to because it doesn't affect them, yet.  My First GF was LDS from Japan and back then the LDS church would wisely tell people to store food, nowadays the LDS I know are very reluctant to tell anyone just how much they have (and in the case of my friends the guns and ammo they have been stockpiling for years)  for obvious reasons, if/when the bubble bursts and we go into a real depression?  There is going to be so much looting it's scary.  Guess what?  That's more or less how the 30 years war played out early on, the Protestants destroyed catholic churches, stole anything of value and just raped and pillaged along the way which was met with a logical response, military moving in and killing a lot of people.  Even Luther condemned what the peasants had done, you are to obey your leaders.  From what i've seen of contemporary American culture we won't have someone that level headed if things get bad. 

My neighbors can have my food storage as long as it lasts, in an emergency as you describe.  I believe that is a common attitude among LDS.  Also, we have thrown out two two year food supplies over the years due to spoilage and not rotating.  We eat mostly fresh food that is hard to store, although we have a good supply of beans, legumes, rice and flour.  We also have some dehydrated food, but not much.

Back in the 80's recession, we did live off our food storage, ground our own wheat, etc.  But times have changed.

I don't think LDS people store food as much as they used to. The Church encourages a 3 month supply these days, and some emergency supplies for your car.  Regarding telling people how much they have, they may want to protect their privacy as many people, possibly including you, may want to do.

Many people hunt and own firearms for that or protection. That seems reasonable to me, and not confined to LDS culture.

Regarding becoming a scholar, I study to my satisfaction, but am not looking for another better way.  I researched and went through the process found in Moroni 10:3-5. The answers I obtained there, and the fruits of living the religion have been most satisfactory to me.  I am what you would call a true believer, and I love my faith and my life.  If people find that in another path, I am happy for them as well.  I am not into imposing my religion on anyone, but am not reluctant to answer questions or share what I do know.

 

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On 7/12/2017 at 7:27 AM, poptart said:

That much I knew, since the LDS are not trinitarians, well that kind of leaves you out.  Also can attest to the whole baptismal record thing, the Catholics can be guarded when it comes to that stuff. 
To be fair, Europeans don't profess their beliefs the same way they do in the states, while they may say they're not Catholic, they sure send their kids to Catholic schools if they live in the country side.  Here in the states people lie about religion all the time because it's socially/politically expedient to do so.

I don't know what you mean, "leaves you out," unless you are agreeing that Catholics don't view LDS as Christian.  Mormons are, by and large, free thinking people.  They seek truth wherever they can find it.  There is ample scriptural evidence that does not support the Trinitarian view, such as Christ praying on the cross, John baptizing Christ, etc.

"There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that He spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4:14–31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; 3 Ne. 11:3–7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56) and Joseph Smith (JS—H 1:17). Later He appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76:20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before Him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that He is God (Matt. 5:8; 3 Ne. 12:8; D&C 76:116–118; 93:1).
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, Mark 15:34.
These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16:17.
We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29."

The Nicene and Apostles Creeds are hard for me to understand.  Yet we are told that this is life eternal, to know there, the only true God, and (separate from God the Father) and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.  That supports 3 separate and distinct entities and is easier for me to understand than the triune god.  A child can understand separate individuals. How would you explain the Savior' s words in Matthew 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."  This is another instance that supports separate individuals united in purpose.

Edited by Meerkat
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8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I don't know what you mean, "leaves you out," unless you are agreeing that Catholics don't view LDS as Christian.  Mormons are, by and large, free thinking people.  They seek truth wherever they can find it.  There is ample scriptural evidence that does not support the Trinitarian view, such as Christ praying on the cross, John baptizing Christ, etc.

"There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that He spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4:14–31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; 3 Ne. 11:3–7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56) and Joseph Smith (JS—H 1:17). Later He appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76:20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before Him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that He is God (Matt. 5:8; 3 Ne. 12:8; D&C 76:116–118; 93:1).
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, Mark 15:34.
These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16:17.
We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29."

The Nicene and Apostles Creeds are hard for me to understand.  Yet we are told that this is life eternal, to know there, the only true God, and (separate from God the Father) and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.  That supports 3 separate and distinct entities and is easier for me to understand than the triune god.  A child can understand separate individuals. How would you explain the Savior' s words in Matthew 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."  This is another instance that supports separate individuals united in purpose.

Catholics and mainline protestants are considered Trinitarian due to their belief in the trinity, something not everyone does believe in.  Keep in mind, people fought wars over doctrine so to them it's a big deal.  

Also wow giving away food?  You're a really nice guy.  Wish you were my neibor.

1200px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-compact.svg.png

Edited by poptart
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9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I don't know what you mean, "leaves you out," unless you are agreeing that Catholics don't view LDS as Christian.  Mormons are, by and large, free thinking people.  They seek truth wherever they can find it.  There is ample scriptural evidence that does not support the Trinitarian view, such as Christ praying on the cross, John baptizing Christ, etc.

"There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that He spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4:14–31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; 3 Ne. 11:3–7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56) and Joseph Smith (JS—H 1:17). Later He appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76:20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before Him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that He is God (Matt. 5:8; 3 Ne. 12:8; D&C 76:116–118; 93:1).
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, Mark 15:34.
These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16:17.
We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29."

The Nicene and Apostles Creeds are hard for me to understand.  Yet we are told that this is life eternal, to know there, the only true God, and (separate from God the Father) and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.  That supports 3 separate and distinct entities and is easier for me to understand than the triune god.  A child can understand separate individuals. How would you explain the Savior' s words in Matthew 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."  This is another instance that supports separate individuals united in purpose.

As a Catholic, I understand that Jesus prayed to His Father. He was showing us how we might follow Him (the Son) in love and obedience and even dependence upon His Father. Catholics would agree with you that the Father is not the Son, nor is the Son the Father. In another text He said that His meat was to do the will of His Father who sent Him.

"In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat. But He said to them, I have meat to eat that ye know not. The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work." (Jn 4:31, ff.)

The Son could obviously have delivered Himself from the cup of Suffering that was appointed. He was unwilling to deliver Himself if it meant that He could not enjoy the "meat of obedience to the Father" which was so precious to Him. He would rather be scourged, crowned with thorns, and crucified. Doing the will of the Father is so valuable to God's only begotten Son that He give up all, and took up a Cross to retain this precious treasure. It should give the disciple of Christ pause to consider whether we have recognized what is lost when we willfully flee from suffering. Every trial, big or small, is meant to strengthen our faith here, redound to the glory of God above, and result in a brighter light of glory in heaven for having imitated our Lord Jesus Christ. It ought to be our "meat" to ask God to do the will of Him who sent His Son.

It is in this context that St. James writes in the remarkable opening lines of His epistle:

"My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations. Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience. And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing" (1:2-4) 

Tribulations that bring a test to our faith and love because of the repugnance of obedience to God, should be understood as opportunities from a loving Father, who wants us to be as everlastingly happy as we can. And for this, as Jesus drank a repugnant cup, so must we. Even now, with faith that God wills trials for our happiness and perfection, we should go forth with courage, "counting it all joy" to drink a cup of suffering appointed by God.

Edited by 3DOP
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18 hours ago, 3DOP said:

As a Catholic, I understand that Jesus prayed to His Father. He was showing us how we might follow Him (the Son) in love and obedience and even dependence upon His Father. Catholics would agree with you that the Father is not the Son, nor is the Son the Father. In another text He said that His meat was to do the will of His Father who sent Him.

"In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat. But He said to them, I have meat to eat that ye know not. The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work." (Jn 4:31, ff.)

The Son could obviously have delivered Himself from the cup of Suffering that was appointed. He was unwilling to deliver Himself if it meant that He could not enjoy the "meat of obedience to the Father" which was so precious to Him. He would rather be scourged, crowned with thorns, and crucified. Doing the will of the Father is so valuable to God's only begotten Son that He give up all, and took up a Cross to retain this precious treasure. It should give the disciple of Christ pause to consider whether we have recognized what is lost when we willfully flee from suffering. Every trial, big or small, is meant to strengthen our faith here, redound to the glory of God above, and result in a brighter light of glory in heaven for having imitated our Lord Jesus Christ. It ought to be our "meat" to ask God to do the will of Him who sent His Son.

It is in this context that St. James writes in the remarkable opening lines of His epistle:

"My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations. Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience. And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing" (1:2-4) 

Tribulations that bring a test to our faith and love because of the repugnance of obedience to God, should be understood as opportunities from a loving Father, who wants us to be as everlastingly happy as we can. And for this, as Jesus drank a repugnant cup, so must we. Even now, with faith that God wills trials for our happiness and perfection, we should go forth with courage, "counting it all joy" to drink a cup of suffering appointed by God.

Thank you, 3DOP.  Very beautifully stated.  I agree with everything you said.  Our meat does become doing the will of the Father.  We become strengthened spiritually and become sanctified through our trials.  I also count it joy when we resist temptation with the aid of Christ.  In fact, I count it joy when I have fallen, experiencing the guilt and sorrow that brought  joy of Redemption through repentance. Now I try to live for the joy of obedience.

You may know what you expressed resonates with many Mormons.  That is our history.  Crossing the plains, "Come, come ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear... But with joy, wend your way." They blazed trails out west, buried loved one's along the way, suffered many hardships and experienced joy for the reasons you stated above.  Members of both churches have lived examples of love and service, and made important contributions, as have others.  

I so agree with your comments that if we are going to dwell with Jesus, we will have opportunities to walk in His paths.  I had a portion of my lung removed several years ago.  They separated my ribs to work on it.  The pain during healing was excruciating as the nerves knit together.  I thought "So this is what it was like when Jesus was speared in His side by the Centurion."  You are right, there is a joy that comes when we drink a cup of suffering appointed by God.  How else could we learn how far He was willing to go for us if we didnt experience it in some small way. And how else would we learn to mourn with those who mourn, and comfort those who stand in need of comfort, if we haven't mourned?  As Heavenly Father told the Prophet Joseph Smith, "All these things shall be for thy good, and give thee experience..."

And I don't believe such sanctification is only for Catholics and Mormons.  I believe it is for all of God's children.  The Savior will find a way to reveal Himself to each person.  It is up to us what we do with those opportunities.  And we will be judged for the choices we make.

Thanks for your very thoughtful response, 3DOP.  I look forward to reading more of your thoughts and ideas.  This one gave me a lot to think about.  I enjoyed it, responded to your post, and all of a sudden it disappeared before I could save it.  So this modified response will have to do. 

 

Best regards

Meerkat

 

Edited by Meerkat
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19 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Thank you, 3DOP.  Very beautifully stated.  I agree with everything you said.  Our meat does become doing the will of the Father.  We become strengthened spiritually and become sanctified through our trials.  I also count it joy when we resist temptation with the aid of Christ.  In fact, I count it joy when I have fallen, experiencing the guilt and sorrow that brought  joy of Redemption through repentance. Now I try to live for the joy of obedience.

You may know what you expressed resonates with many Mormons.  That is our history.  Crossing the plains, "Come, come ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear... But with joy, wend your way." They blazed trails out west, buried loved one's along the way, suffered many hardships and experienced joy for the reasons you stated above.  Members of both churches have lived examples of love and service, and made important contributions, as have others.  

I so agree with your comments that if we are going to dwell with Jesus, we will have opportunities to walk in His paths.  I had a portion of my lung removed several years ago.  They separated my ribs to work on it.  The pain during healing was excruciating as the nerves knit together.  I thought "So this is what it was like when Jesus was speared in His side by the Centurion."  You are right, there is a joy that comes when we drink a cup of suffering appointed by God.  How else could we learn how far He was willing to go for us if we didnt experience it in some small way. And how else would we learn to mourn with those who mourn, and comfort those who stand in need of comfort, if we haven't mourned?  As Heavenly Father told the Prophet Joseph Smith, "All these things shall be for thy good, and give thee experience..."

And I don't believe such sanctification is only for Catholics and Mormons.  I believe it is for all of God's children.  The Savior will find a way to reveal Himself to each person.  It is up to us what we do with those opportunities.  And we will be judged for the choices we make.

Thanks for your very thoughtful response, 3DOP.  I look forward to reading more of your thoughts and ideas.  This one gave me a lot to think about.  I enjoyed it, responded to your post, and all of a sudden it disappeared before I could save it.  So this modified response will have to do. 

 

Best regards

Meerkat

 

Meerkat, Hi.

Many thanks for your compliments. I cannot in good conscience deny the significance and implications of our differences, but it is certainly pleasant to recognize that upon which we can find agreement. I am delighted if what I have said could resonate with many Mormons.

Best regards,

3DOP

 

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2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Meerkat, Hi.

Many thanks for your compliments. I cannot in good conscience deny the significance and implications of our differences, but it is certainly pleasant to recognize that upon which we can find agreement. I am delighted if what I have said could resonate with many Mormons.

Best regards,

3DOP

 

3DOP, We Latter day Saints do have some unique doctrines in all of Christendom.  I can, in good conscience, affirm that.  The same can be said of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, etc.  I don't doubt that there are true believers in every sect, of which I am one.  My question would be what is most important, what we believe, or what we do?  What is it that opens the door to the Celestial City? 

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Wasn't asked of me, but as someone who has both catholic and lutheran family i'm a firm believer of works is everything.  We owe Rome thanks, without them we would all have been facing east long ago, and at this rate many of us may be doing so soon.  If Jesus is real as Rome says he is I'd sure feel like crap when he looks at me and says what?  I was beaten for you, sold out by my own race, killed and went to hell for you people, what have you done for the church?  Stood by and let them suffer?  Faith alone as a doctorine makes me gag.

 

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8 hours ago, poptart said:

Wasn't asked of me, but as someone who has both catholic and lutheran family i'm a firm believer of works is everything.  We owe Rome thanks, without them we would all have been facing east long ago, and at this rate many of us may be doing so soon.  If Jesus is real as Rome says he is I'd sure feel like crap when he looks at me and says what?  I was beaten for you, sold out by my own race, killed and went to hell for you people, what have you done for the church?  Stood by and let them suffer?  Faith alone as a doctorine makes me gag.

 

You make an important point.  Faith without works isn't the plan.  Christ's Gospel is a Gospel of changed behavior. If faith is all that is required, Hell would move into Heaven because "even the Devils believe."   "Go ye into all the world, preaching repentance and baptising" is what Jesus taught.  Change.  Turn from your wicked ways.  Do good.  Love God and love thy neighbor.  Does that mean "Feel love?"  Or does it mean "You show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Your comment resonated with me.

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