stemelbow Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 1 minute ago, USU78 said: You think it possible that it could be used rationally, accurately and not as a weapon? In my experience it has never been employed thus. I think I did that in this very thread. And no one seems to have contested that yet. 1
USU78 Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I think I did that in this very thread. And no one seems to have contested that yet. That's what you think is going on here? Really?
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I personally don't like using the word homophobia when talking about this issue because of the defensiveness response that it creates, so that was my first point. It makes it difficult to have conversations about the topic all together, and I appreciate what you're saying and how my comment might also be triggering, its a challenge because this is the topic of this thread, so I'm trying to tread lightly. When I said the product of the teachings of the church is homophobic members, I think the evidence for this is clear from my personal experiences and interactions with family and friends, I do see homophobic behaviors and attitudes. I will say that most of the people I interact with have very kind hearts and are loving and generous in many aspects of their lives. Unfortunately homophobia often keeps them from sharing the same generous spirit of love and acceptance to this group of individuals. The idea that homosexual activity is sinful, I believe it a major contributing factor to homophobia. To me, if a person believes this, then that belief is homophobic at its core. That person may be outwardly loving and kind to homosexuals, but believing that those individuals are sinning, even committed monogamous couples, is a homophobic belief. Increasing this problem is the teaching that this sin is not a benign sin in Mormon parlance, but is next to murder. I used to think you could separate the sin from the sinner on this issue, but I no longer do. If you believe that homosexual activity is universally a sin, then that belief qualifies as a homophobic belief in my opinion. We are called to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Please don't hate me because I sin differently than you do..
JLHPROF Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 1 hour ago, JAHS said: No, the church is theophobic (fear of God), but in a good way. It will follow what God wants us to do and believe; not what man wants us to believe. This exactly. The only "fear" the LDS Church has of homosexuals is the fear that the practice will become so acceptable in society they will no longer be able to maintain God's standard, follow his will, or that members will embrace the societally popular falsehood. The Church is afraid of failing God. What is there to fear about homosexuality other than the rapidity with which it is becoming acceptable?
JLHPROF Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 27 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Would that be the monogamist or polygamist ideal? Which one is taught? Either/or? Number is irrelevant. Marriage is the union of male and female, designed for the purpose of multiplying and replenishing the earth. All other unions are not "marriage", regardless of how society chooses to label them. 1
hope_for_things Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: We are called to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Please don't hate me because I sin differently than you do.. I don't believe in this teaching of hate the sin and love the sinner. I think its a heresy. 2
hope_for_things Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: This exactly. The only "fear" the LDS Church has of homosexuals is the fear that the practice will become so acceptable in society they will no longer be able to maintain God's standard, follow his will, or that members will embrace the societally popular falsehood. The Church is afraid of failing God. What is there to fear about homosexuality other than the rapidity with which it is becoming acceptable? I agree that this is the concern of today's church leaders. This is one of the flaws of religion as well as one of its strengths. Religious convictions that a standard or teaching is so important that God wants people to defend this teaching, is a strength when that teaching is moral and worth supporting. It becomes a huge weakness when that teaching is immoral and detrimental to society. History is full of examples where religious convictions have been used to support horrible practices. There are other times where religious convictions have inspired people to do amazing things for the benefit of humanity. My opinion is that all of our religious convictions should regularly be examined, and this belief of mine has been significantly informed by my religious background in Mormonism. Our thoughts are not God's thoughts, we should be humble, reflective, and critical about all of our beliefs especially because of our human historical tendency to frequently make poor decisions. Edited June 16, 2017 by hope_for_things 1
bluebell Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Is the church not averse to homosexuality? Does it not discriminate against homosexuals? No, i don't think so.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: This exactly. The only "fear" the LDS Church has of homosexuals is the fear that the practice will become so acceptable in society they will no longer be able to maintain God's standard, follow his will, or that members will embrace the societally popular falsehood. The Church is afraid of failing God. What is there to fear about homosexuality other than the rapidity with which it is becoming acceptable? Has the percentage of LGTB gone up? I don't think it has. So, is there really a valid fear that the gays will somehow destroy decent society? It's always been a small population and therefore safe to oppose. Or is fear of LGBT acceptance a ploy to get people in the pews? Othering generates group loyalty, it seems. Churches need to have something to rail against to have purpose. 2
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I don't believe in this teaching of hate the sin and love the sinner. I think its a heresy. SEE If anyone says, "I love God," but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar; for if we don't love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we have not seen?--1 John 4:20
JLHPROF Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: Has the percentage of LGTB gone up? I don't think it has. So, is there really a valid fear that the gays will somehow destroy decent society? It's always been a small population and therefore safe to oppose. Or is fear of LGBT acceptance a ploy to get people in the pews? Othering generates group loyalty, it seems. Churches need to have something to rail against to have purpose. The issue isn't whether the population of LGBT has gone up. They are a small percent, always have been, and probably always will be. The issue is that those accepting of the LGBT lifestyle as morally correct and acceptable has absolutely skyrocketed (yes, I don't have data, but I think that would be easy to google). There is no fear that "the gays" will destroy decent society, or at least there shouldn't be. There is a fear that decent society will not be able to recognize sin when they see it. A fear that is proving all too true. Take the "Women's March" from a few months back. Millions of people all over the country marching in support of abortion rights, LGBT rights, and other issues of questionable morals. It's not about what sins are being committed. It's about what sins are being accepted. God wants our hearts as much as anything, and our hearts are changing to oppose him. 2
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Any homosexual brother or sister who wants to sit with me on the front row of the chapel they are welcome to. Edited June 16, 2017 by thesometimesaint 3
ksfisher Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I don't believe in this teaching of hate the sin and love the sinner. I think its a heresy. This is interesting. So what do you believe? Surely you don't believe that we should love sin. Do you believe that we should accept sin or at least stay neutral on the subject of sin?
stemelbow Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: This is interesting. So what do you believe? Surely you don't believe that we should love sin. Do you believe that we should accept sin or at least stay neutral on the subject of sin? i'm with hope_for_things on this. The phrase seems most often used to tell people that they are sinning. But for someone who is gay and holds to a spiritual view, for instance, they've been through it like someone using that phrase doesn't know. In many cases the person has made themselves right with God, as far as they are concerned. The phrase doesn't express love for the person, but expresses disdain for the person's life long reality. On this issue in particular that phrase is just terribly applied--and frankly I don't know that the phrase is used outside of this issue which makes it even more problematic.
ksfisher Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, stemelbow said: i'm with hope_for_things on this. The phrase seems most often used to tell people that they are sinning. But for someone who is gay and holds to a spiritual view, for instance, they've been through it like someone using that phrase doesn't know. In many cases the person has made themselves right with God, as far as they are concerned. The phrase doesn't express love for the person, but expresses disdain for the person's life long reality. On this issue in particular that phrase is just terribly applied--and frankly I don't know that the phrase is used outside of this issue which makes it even more problematic. But speaking in general, should we be accepting of sin, or things that are morally wrong? Should we stay neutral when we see people acting in a manner that does them eternal harm? Can we not say, "I love you, but you need to change."? Edited June 16, 2017 by ksfisher sp 1
Kenngo1969 Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Homophobia = the failure on any given day to embrace and promote a particular antireligionist, irrational, leftysociopolitical cadre of rules and regulations on the subject of homosexual and other deviant sexual and other, related behaviors, which cadre morphs so quickly and often that no one could possibly keep up. Well, of course. It makes it easier to attack, marginalize, and demonize someone for not following the rules. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 27 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Any homosexual brother or sister who wants to sit with me on the front row of the chapel they are welcome to. Me too. But any homosexual brother or sister who wants a change in doctrine is probably looking in the wrong Church. 1
Tacenda Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Me too. But any homosexual brother or sister who wants a change in doctrine is probably looking in the wrong Church. Well if that's the case, the church better make a stipulation to it's missionaries not to teach a gay person, right here and now. Poor people that grew up in the church, now where do they turn?
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, ksfisher said: But speaking in general, should we be accepting of sin, or things that are morally wrong? Should we stay neutral when we sin people acting in a manner that does them eternal harm? Can we not say, "I love you, but you need to change."? We are called to change. No we shouldn't stay neutral. But to hate the sinner is to deny God.
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Me too. But any homosexual brother or sister who wants a change in doctrine is probably looking in the wrong Church. Sure. If I had my way I'd change a few doctrines(Very few) . But I don't have my way in the Church.
carbon dioxide Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 Usually when someone uses the term "homophobic" it is used in a context where an actual phobia does not exist. To not like, disagree, hate, or to despise something does not constitute as an actual phobia. I don't like spinach. I don't have a phobia of spinach but I just don't like it. I don't like rape. I don't have a phobia of rape. I just am opposed to it. I don't agree or accept homosexual behavior. I don't have a phobia of gays. I can sit in a room with gays and not be annoyed or have any negative feelings or responses. I do have a phobia of wasps. I not only hate wasps but I am terrified of them. Put me in a room with one wasp you will see an actual phobia. You will see me act much different than if i am in a room with 5 gay people. Is the Church homophobic? Of course not. It simply has standards of right and wrong. Right and wrong to God is not dependent on the calendar or the century one lives in nor is it decided by vote or social changes. God does not put his finger in the air to make decisions on which way the winds are blowing. God is not a politician. The Church has one primary imperative. That is to do what God wants it to do. If the church was to do anything differently, it has no reason to exist.
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well if that's the case, the church better make a stipulation to it's missionaries not to teach a gay person, right here and now. Poor people that grew up in the church, now where do they turn? Why? Are we not called to preach repentance to the whole earth including our own members? 1
JLHPROF Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well if that's the case, the church better make a stipulation to it's missionaries not to teach a gay person, right here and now. Why? The gospel is to be taken to all the world. Not changed so all the world wants to come to the "gospel". There is no reason to expect a belief system to change to include those who don't share that belief. I don't attend a Catholic mass and expect them to stop say the Hail Mary. I don't tell Muslims not to pray towards Mecca. I don't tell Atheists that they'd better start praying (ok, maybe once or twice. ) And I don't think that anyone should expect the LDS Church to change a fundamental principle of its religion to be more inclusive to those who don't believe that principle. Quote Poor people that grew up in the church, now where do they turn? Despite what people think, the Church is not some great big social club. The Church is a group of people who have accepted the same doctrines, teachings, and practices. If people that grew up in the Church no longer accept its teachings, practices, and doctrines, then "where they turn" should be elsewhere. They are welcome in the Church, as is everyone, but the Church should NOT be changing to make people more comfortable, and certainly not to preserve a social club. 1
ksfisher Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well if that's the case, the church better make a stipulation to it's missionaries not to teach a gay person, right here and now. Poor people that grew up in the church, now where do they turn? The acceptance of the gospel and the desire to receive Christ through baptism always necessitates a need to change. All have need of repentance regardless of how, when, or why then have sinned or are sinning.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The issue isn't whether the population of LGBT has gone up. They are a small percent, always have been, and probably always will be. The issue is that those accepting of the LGBT lifestyle as morally correct and acceptable has absolutely skyrocketed (yes, I don't have data, but I think that would be easy to google). There is no fear that "the gays" will destroy decent society, or at least there shouldn't be. There is a fear that decent society will not be able to recognize sin when they see it. A fear that is proving all too true. Take the "Women's March" from a few months back. Millions of people all over the country marching in support of abortion rights, LGBT rights, and other issues of questionable morals. It's not about what sins are being committed. It's about what sins are being accepted. God wants our hearts as much as anything, and our hearts are changing to oppose him. What about churches seemingly railing against a small minority? It looks like the churches are taking on a safe enemy?
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