Johnnie Cake Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Which leaders have "admonished members to stay away from [Church history] as a faith destroyer"? Give us names, sources, direct quotes in context, please. Yes, this is a CFR. Thanks for your CFR Scott...let me be more specific and clarify my statement I was referring to local leaders...but then I remembered this admonition of Boyd Packer who said Quote Church history can be so very interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer. So probably on some level this was what I was thinking of when I made that statement. Hope that helps.
Johnnie Cake Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: And yet you keep returning. Just following your example Scott...
Jeanne Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 45 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Just following your example Scott... And mine..
pogi Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I also fear that they will contextualize...the history I can see why that would be terrifying for critics of the church!
Johnnie Cake Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 20 minutes ago, pogi said: I can see why that would be terrifying for critics of the church! Contextualize is just a euphemism for Spin
pogi Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Contextualize is just a euphemism for Spin I know what you meant, I was just having fun. I do have to say though, typically when people use a euphemism, they don't use the word they are substituting for ("spin") directly after the euphemism in a sentence...that kind of defeats the purpose of the euphemism. Edited June 9, 2017 by pogi
sunstoned Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I doubt that. You seem determined to place the bulk of the blame on the Church. And you seem to be claiming repeatedly that the Church presented a false narrative. I don't hold with that at all. Being selective about what is presented (and make no mistake about it: Everyone is selective, especially anti-Mormons, apostates and critics) is not the same thing as giving a false narrative. You are correct that everyone is selective (especially apologists, correlation committees, and bow your head blind obedient types). -- It is really easy to judge and paint with a broad brush. Anyone can do it. But it really doesn't doesn't move the conversation along in the right direction, and often times it offends people. So I will make you a deal. I won't do it anymore if you don't. Edited June 9, 2017 by sunstoned
hagoth7 Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 14 hours ago, Tacenda said: I don't like the wording you used, it seems harsh to those that are going through being blindsided or have been. Victimhood and entitlement, hum. Edited: What if you were robbed and the news said you felt entitled and you had a victimhood mentality? How would you feel? Being robbed doesn't even compare to what people that lose faith lose. They lose faith, and sometimes their families, and even their livelihoods. Tell me how they are supposed to feel now. Understood. Appreciated. Deeply loved.
hagoth7 Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, stemelbow said: So the Swedes were duped? Yes. Duped into rejecting their own heritage. If what little I've read of recent events there are accurate. Edited June 9, 2017 by hagoth7
HappyJackWagon Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think it just as likely due to them being more apt to be the ones exposed to career apostates like Dehlin. Even in Sweden, where they've had their own wave of faith crisis in recent years, it was largely Dehlin's doing. You give Dehlin far too much credit/blame. He's a small piece of the puzzle who illustrates the larger problem. 4
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 8 hours ago, hagoth7 said: Yes. Duped into rejecting their own heritage. What do you mean?
Tacenda Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 9 hours ago, hagoth7 said: Understood. Appreciated. Deeply loved.
hagoth7 Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: What do you mean? Yngvi-Frey, son of Njord, of the Vanir, from whom Swedish dynasties claim descent - "...lived in Nóa-tún and was associated with sea, seafaring, wind, fishing, wealth, and crop fertility." The Ingaevones who claimed descent from him were a grouping of related tribes along the North Sea coast known to exist at least by 100 AD. (See the grouping in red.) They are believed by such as Webster himself to have later given England its name. Edited June 9, 2017 by hagoth7
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: You give Dehlin far too much credit/blame. He's a small piece of the puzzle who illustrates the larger problem. He wreaked the same havoc there as he has been doing for so long here. He exacerbated their faith crisis and promoted and facilitated their falling away when what they needed was tender nurturing within the faith.
Tacenda Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: He wreaked the same havoc there as he has been doing for so long here. He exacerbated their faith crisis and promoted and facilitated their falling away when what they needed was tender nurturing within the faith. No, the information they received wreaked havoc. Not everyone can continue belief when the facts supersede their testimony. Especially a testimony gained by believing a view that turns out to be wrong.
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: He wreaked the same havoc there as he has been doing for so long here. He exacerbated their faith crisis and promoted and facilitated their falling away when what they needed was tender nurturing within the faith. Is he then to blame because they didn't get what they needed within faith? 2
HappyJackWagon Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: He wreaked the same havoc there as he has been doing for so long here. He exacerbated their faith crisis and promoted and facilitated their falling away when what they needed was tender nurturing within the faith. So are you suggesting that JD, by making additional information available exacerbated faith crisis'? So is he more powerful than the institutional church who undoubtedly were working to nurture those who were struggling with their faith? Does JD really have that much power and is the church (and the spirit) really that weak? I don't think so. Or could it be that people seek out truth and follow where it leads them in their personal journey? Could it be that the church is late to this truth game? 4
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: In short, Hans was taken in by Dehlin, while Leif was not. It's an interesting case study. You might want to listen to the podcast where Dehlin interviews Hans. It's actually the only one I have listened to, but it was very good. Hans had already left the church though, before he even met Dehlin, iirc. His first issues were with the teachings on the age of the earth, etc., and went from there. He did his own research and didn't rely on Dehlin to influence him from what I could tell and was out before he found Dehlin. Edited June 9, 2017 by JulieM 3
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: So are you suggesting that JD, by making additional information available exacerbated faith crisis'? So is he more powerful than the institutional church who undoubtedly were working to nurture those who were struggling with their faith? Does JD really have that much power and is the church (and the spirit) really that weak? I don't think so. Or could it be that people seek out truth and follow where it leads them in their personal journey? Could it be that the church is late to this truth game? Its sad to think the Church has to blame individuals like Dehlin for faith crises when the Church often caused the problems by creating false narratives and manipulating the information the members were to receive. I'm sad to see Scott's been duped on this and thus feels the need to blame someone else for the faith problems for members and former members in Sweden. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: No, the information they received wreaked havoc. Not everyone can continue belief when the facts supersede their testimony. Especially a testimony gained by believing a view that turns out to be wrong. What makes you think "the information they received" was not "manipulated," as stemelbow and others accuse the Church of Jesus Christ of doing? "Facts" devoid of explanatory and enlightening context can convey false information just as readily as overt lies can.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: What makes you think "the information they received" was not "manipulated," as stemelbow and others accuse the Church of Jesus Christ of doing? "Facts" devoid of explanatory and enlightening context can convey false information just as readily as overt lies can. I think Hans went to church leaders for answers (even a GA iirc). Wasn't he involved in the Swedish Rescue when he was searching for answers? I think they were told the leaders had answers (in a briefcase), but they weren't given them yet. (Again, I'm going from memory here so maybe I'm wrong.) Edited June 9, 2017 by JulieM
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 31 minutes ago, JulieM said: You might want to listen to the podcast where Dehlin interviews Hans. It's actually the only one I have listened to, but it was very good. Hans had already left the church though, before he even met Dehlin, iirc. His first issues were with the teachings on the age of the earth, etc., and went from there. He did his own research and didn't rely on Dehlin to influence him from what I could tell and was out before he found Dehlin. The matter of the age of the earth can be reasonably resolved, as for example here. It's a real pity if he was not exposed to a more nuanced understanding of what the Church does and does not teach on this subject. It's a case where "facts" need not "supersede ... testimony," to use Tacenda's phrasing. That might be the case as well with the other issues that bothered Brother Mattsson.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The matter of the age of the earth can be reasonably resolved, as for example here. It's a real pity if he was not exposed to a more nuanced understanding of what the Church does and does not teach on this subject. It's a case where "facts" need not "supersede ... testimony," to use Tacenda's phrasing. That might be the case as well with the other issues that bothered Brother Mattsson. Well, the age of the earth teachings were just the beginning of his researching for the truth. He did go to leaders and tried to get answers. You really should listen to the podcast with him telling of his experiences before you judge him so harshly. He is sincere and seems to be a very humble, good man and what he went through has been painful for him and his family. Edited June 9, 2017 by JulieM
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think Hans went to church leaders for answers (even a GA iirc). Wasn't he involved in the Swedish Rescue when he was searching for answers? I think they were told the leaders had answers (in a briefcase), but they weren't given them yet. (Again, I'm going from memory here so maybe I'm wrong.) I've read a transcript I understand was made from a surreptitious recording by someone who was present on what I'm guessing is the occasion to which you refer. The impression I got was that the effort was too little too late in that the attendees were too far along on the path of my-mind-is-already-made-up-don't-convince-me-with-facts.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, JulieM said: Well, the age of the earth teachings were just the beginning of his researching for the truth. He did go to leaders and tried to get answers. You really should listen to the podcast with him telling of his experiences before you judge him so harshly. He is sincere and seems to be a very humble, good man and what he went through has been painful for him and his family. I'm just saying that, properly understood, the "age-of-the-earth" question is a very tenuous matter over which to discard one's testimony of the gospel. Not knowing at the moment what his other questions were, I can't evaluate them. Whatever they were, they apparently didn't faze Leif Mattsson, Hans's twin brother and a former stake president, who I assume would have reached out to rescue his brother and thus would have been made privy to the same material that was bothering Hans. For the record, I reject your accusation that I am judging him harshly. Edited June 9, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
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