Johnnie Cake Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: He wreaked the same havoc there as he has been doing for so long here. He exacerbated their faith crisis and promoted and facilitated their falling away when what they needed was tender nurturing within the faith. You're guilty of shooting the messenger for providing a narrative that resonated as more truthful and convincing to those that received it than the faith promoting narrative provided by the church...why would Dehlin's narrative ring more true than that provided by the church? Curtainly the church was telling the truth...right? So why would Dehlin's podcast be so persuasive with these Swedes? Unless Dehlin's version was actually the more truthful narrative.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I've read a transcript I understand was made from a surreptitious recording by someone who was present on what I'm guessing is the occasion to which you refer. The impression I got was that the effort was too little too late in that the attendees were too far along on the path of my-mind-is-already-made-up-don't-convince-me-with-facts. I don't think that's true at all. I believe some in attendance are still active members today. There were really just no good answers given by the leaders who came from what I remember (I read the transcript too but it's been awhile). 1
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm just saying that, properly understood, the "age-of-the-earth" question is a very tenuous matter over which to discard one's testimony of the gospel. Not knowing at the moment what his other questions were, I can't evaluate them. Again, that's not what happened (that issue just started his search). And again, you should stop judging him so harshly when you really don't seem to know the facts regarding Hans. You've now posted several things that aren't accurate IMO.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 16 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Contextualize is just a euphemism for Spin It amounts to spinning to declare that "contextualize is just a euphemism for spin."
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, JulieM said: Again, that's not what happened (that issue just started his search). And again, you should stop judging him so harshly when you really don't seem to know the facts regarding Hans. So he no longer feels, then, that the age-of-the-earth question is a good reason to discard one's faith and testimony? Can you recall what some of his other issues were? Perhaps we can deal with them one at a time. Quote You've now posted several things that aren't accurate IMO. Such as?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, JulieM said: I don't think that's true at all. I believe some in attendance are still active members today. There were really just no good answers given by the leaders who came from what I remember (I read the transcript too but it's been awhile). I'm giving my honest impression from the transcript I read. As I recall, many seemed determined to reject reasonable responses (such as those provided by FairMormon) and would have been satisfied only with signed First Presidency statements. Quote I believe some in attendance are still active members today. If that's true, perhaps the effort was not altogether wasted and at least some of the answers that were given were better than you let on. Again, I reject your repeated accusation that I am judging him harshly. If he is going to be public with his criticisms of the Church, others are entitled to evaluate the soundness of those criticisms. Edited June 9, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I've read a transcript I understand was made from a surreptitious recording by someone who was present on what I'm guessing is the occasion to which you refer. The impression I got was that the effort was too little too late in that the attendees were too far along on the path of my-mind-is-already-made-up-don't-convince-me-with-facts. I do believe the rescue was years after Hans had left and some time after he went public of his leaving. The impression I got was members there were coming to Hans and Hans couldn't help, when he sought further help, there was little coming. When more and more were leaving, including Hans, it seems the rescue was organized. but yes, it was too little too late.
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: What makes you think "the information they received" was not "manipulated," as stemelbow and others accuse the Church of Jesus Christ of doing? "Facts" devoid of explanatory and enlightening context can convey false information just as readily as overt lies can. I don't know that any information given to those who left was good or bad. But it's apparent they had some questions and concerns that were not addressed. the big issue it seems was, they were finding out much of what they learned from the church was not true. Why was it not true? Why were they told different stories then what happened? The answers didn't help. They seemed to become more and more convinced that this American religion had more skeletons in the closet than they thought, as they continued to learn more. It made them question the basis of their faith. They concluded it was not for them. Something Dehlin said or did might have resonated with some of them, or none of them. I guess we don't know. But this is hardly his doing. People lose faith, Scott. It's possible all that left would never have been baptized if they were aware of that which they learned early on. Or perhaps some would have left long ago if they knew earlier. On the other hand, it is clear, from their perspective the Church lied. There is plenty of evidence that the Church's main narrative is not workable, as Bushman has said. Let's see if we can fix that and not blame Dehlin for asking the questions and trying to explore his own truth.
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm giving my honest impression from the transcript I read. As I recall, many seemed determined to reject reasonable responses (such as those provided by FairMormon) and would have been satisfied only with signed First Presidency statements. My memory has it that many saw through some of the unreasonable responses that were given during the meeting. I think in some cases the responses were as good as it gets, but in others cases it seemed the answers were terrible and not left any sincere seeker plenty of room to feel dismissed. 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: If that's true, perhaps the effort was not altogether wasted and at least some of the answers that were given were better than you let on. Some were fine enough. And some obviously stayed in the Church---maybe even as a result.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I do believe the rescue was years after Hans had left and some time after he went public of his leaving. The impression I got was members there were coming to Hans and Hans couldn't help, when he sought further help, there was little coming. When more and more were leaving, including Hans, it seems the rescue was organized. but yes, it was too little too late. This is consistent with my understanding of the chronology.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This is consistent with my understanding of the chronology. Here is what is stated about this from the NYT's article on Mattsson: "Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask." So, it does appear that it was at Han's request that the meeting was held. Edited June 9, 2017 by JulieM 2
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 Just now, JulieM said: Here is what is stated about this from the NYT's article on Mattson: "Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask." So, it does appear that it was at Han's request that the meeting was held. I'm pretty sure that was a different meeting then the Swedish rescue mission meeting. The Swedish Rescue was in 2012. But it appears Hans requested the high ranking LDS official earlier and he came in 2010 and that is when he was said to have a document that answers the questions. Quote In March 2012, the LDS Church responded to the wave of apostasy affecting Swedish members, including several high-ranking LDS leaders. This was dubbed The Swedish Rescue (Part 1) by the Church. UPDATE: In August, 2013, the Church in Sweden has also instituted a modern-day 'School of the Prophets' to help prepare future leaders of Sweden. Quote Preceding this, in November 2010, an emergency fireside was held in Stockholm Sweden by Elder Marlin Jensen (Church historian) and Elder Richard Turley (assistant Church historian) to address the faith crisis that ensued among an entire group of members and leaders in Stockholm Sweden including a stake president and a member of the Quorum of the Seventy (General Authority). I think it's against the rules to link to the place I found this, but it is at Mormonthink (I guess I can still mention it, even if I can't link it). 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, JulieM said: Here is what is stated about this from the NYT's article on Mattsson: "Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask." So, it does appear that it was at Han's request that the meeting was held. This account seems garbled. From the transcript I read, I don't recall anything about a manuscript in a briefcase. There may have been some discussion about what eventually would become the Gospel Topics essays. Or perhaps something else.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I'm pretty sure that was a different meeting then the Swedish rescue mission meeting. The Swedish Rescue was in 2012. But it appears Hans requested the high ranking LDS official earlier and he came in 2010 and that is when he was said to have a document that answers the questions. I think it's against the rules to link to the place I found this, but it is at Mormonthink (I guess I can still mention it, even if I can't link it). I just checked the same website, and the only reference to a manuscript in a briefcase that would prove all doubters wrong was in a quotation from the Times story 1
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: I just checked the same website, and the only reference to a manuscript in a briefcase that would prove all doubters wrong was in a quotation from the Times story Fair. I think going from memory you are right. There wasn't much to support the notion that there was a document or claimed to be a document. But, memory can be faulty.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Fair. I think going from memory you are right. There wasn't much to support the notion that there was a document or claimed to be a document. But, memory can be faulty. This may have been an oblique reference to what would become the Gospel Topics essays. But I don't think a senior Church leader would make the claim that the essays would "prove all doubters wrong." Edited June 9, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 54 minutes ago, stemelbow said: My memory has it that many saw through some of the unreasonable responses that were given during the meeting. I think in some cases the responses were as good as it gets, but in others cases it seemed the answers were terrible and not left any sincere seeker plenty of room to feel dismissed. Some were fine enough. And some obviously stayed in the Church---maybe even as a result. My impression was that some of the questions that were posed required more time than was allotted in the meeting to answer thoughtfully, thoroughly and in a nuanced, contextual manner. Add to that the problem (apparent from the transcript I read) that some in the meeting were behaving impatiently -- even rudely -- and, well, that's why I believe the meeting was ill-conceived and too little too late.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Fair. I think going from memory you are right. There wasn't much to support the notion that there was a document or claimed to be a document. But, memory can be faulty. I wasn't by my computer earlier, but just now looked it up. It was in 2005 that L. Tom Perry came over to meet with Hans and answer questions (and where the briefcase with "a manuscript" containing answers was mentioned). The rescue was later (in 2012). But Hans did go to his leaders for answers and help (his Stake President was there along with the Apostle). Edited June 9, 2017 by JulieM 3
hagoth7 Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, JulieM said: Here is what is stated about this from the NYT's article on Mattsson: "Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask." So, it does appear that it was at Han's request that the meeting was held. Interesting that Hans Mattson is the name of a civil war officer from about 150 years earlier, who returned to Sweden and recruited many of his former neighbors (including several of my relatives) to hop boats and leave Sweden for better opportunities elsewhere. He played a role in some of my ancestors coming to America. Edited June 9, 2017 by hagoth7 1
Calm Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JulieM said: I think Hans went to church leaders for answers (even a GA iirc). Wasn't he involved in the Swedish Rescue when he was searching for answers? I think they were told the leaders had answers (in a briefcase), but they weren't given them yet. (Again, I'm going from memory here so maybe I'm wrong.) I have listened to the Swedish Rescue, I think his and some others therehad their minds made up before that from their comments. My understanding is there was a previous conversation with a GA while his faith more in flux though. Iirc, the briefcase happened on the first occasion and has not been confirmed by others, not the Rescue. (I see this has been determined). Edited June 9, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: My impression was that some of the questions that were posed required more time than was allotted in the meeting to answer thoughtfully, thoroughly and in a nuanced, contextual manner. Add to that the problem (apparent from the transcript I read) that some in the meeting were behaving impatiently -- even rudely -- and, well, that's why I believe the meeting was ill-conceived and too little too late. Yeah, I corrected about 2/3 of the original transcript, picked up some words they had missed, corrected a few. There were some rude comments coming from a few there. Imo, they should have presubmitted questions and chosen to go through the top two or three overthe allotted time. If they had been able to end sooner on any of them, go on to the next in line. For the rest, have prepared materials. As it was, it felt rushed and unfinished. Edited June 9, 2017 by Calm 1
JulieM Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Calm said: I have listened to the Swedish Rescue, I think his and some others therehad their minds made up before that from their comments. My understanding is there was a previous conversation with a GA while his faith more in flux though. Iirc, the briefcase happened on the first occasion, not the Rescue. (I see this has been determined). Yes, I looked it up and clarified just a few posts up 1
stemelbow Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: My impression was that some of the questions that were posed required more time than was allotted in the meeting to answer thoughtfully, thoroughly and in a nuanced, contextual manner. Add to that the problem (apparent from the transcript I read) that some in the meeting were behaving impatiently -- even rudely -- and, well, that's why I believe the meeting was ill-conceived and too little too late. Sure. I agree.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, Calm said: Yeah, I corrected about 2/3 of the original transcript, picked up some words they had missed, corrected a few. There were some rude comments coming from a few there. Imo, they should have presubmitted questions and chosen to go through the top two or three overthe allotted time. If they had been able to end sooner on any of them, go on to the next in line. For the rest, have prepared materials. As it was, it felt rushed and unfinished. This is precisely what I believe should have happened, and your impression is consistent with mine. Apparently, you've had the benefit of listening to an audio recording.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 57 minutes ago, hagoth7 said: Interesting that Hans Mattson is the name of a civil war officer from about 150 years earlier, who returned to Sweden and recruited many of his former neighbors (including several of my relatives) to hop boats and leave Sweden for better opportunities elsewhere. He played a role in some of my ancestors coming to America. Mattsson is a fairly common surname in Sweden. And as a given name, Hans is even more common.
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