The Worthy / Unworthy Dichotomy within the LDS Church

[Calm]

"ESV, NIV, or NASB provide some modern translations that give it some good context that might be lost in the KJV!"...sometimes this stuff grates on me and makes me, and others, less likely to listen to you."

This is what got him a point from me.  The use of "grate" particularly echoed my feelings"

If I waited until I approved of everything in a post to give points, I would give very few...

Except maybe to Bluedreams and Brant Gardner.

Five Solas, Did you report him or decided you preferred lecturing him on proper behaviour?

Edited June 6, 2017 by Calm

[Five Solas]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

...

Five Solas, Did you report him or decided you preferred lecturing him on proper behaviour?

I've shared this before, I'm not a fan of reporting people. 

And particularly when the post in question has been publicly applauded by a number of LDS on the forum--if there's going to be a response, it must be made publicly.  Whether you label someone "unworthy" (like my little lds.org search exercise demonstrated in the OP) or you label them a "butt nugget" (as halconero saw fit to do at the bottom of page 1)--it's no good, Calm. 

Opposition to labels has been a recurring theme of my posts on this forum since I joined in 2013 (you may even recall one or two where we took opposite sides over use of the label "anti-Mormon").  My aversion to labels stems from my past experience as a member of the LDS Church.  Naturally I was hoping this might be a key takeaway for readers of the thread--that they would come to appreciate (if they don't already) that this language of their leaders is unhelpful, and even destructive.  And I will add this, the poll results here are actually encouraging.     

:0)

You should retract the reputation point you awarded to halconero, in my opinion. 

--Erik

________________________________

You labeled me
I labeled you
So I dub thee unforgiven

Never free
Never me
So I dub thee unforgiven

--Metallica, 1991

[Okrahomer]

56 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

You should retract the reputation point you awarded to halconero, in my opinion.

I have retracted mine; and I apologize for any offense.

[RevTestament]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:53 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Your all-encompassing theological statement here is not likely true, since "worthiness" is a highly relative term and translates various Hebrew and Greek words which vastly differ in meaning. When John the Baptizer declares in Luke 3:16 that he is not worthy to unloose Jesus' sandals, his original Aramaic word is rendered into Greek as hikanos "competent, worthy," while when Jesus declares the laborer worthy of his hire in Luke 10:7, his original Aramaic word is rendered as Greek axios "fit, proper, repentant."   So Ruth 4:11, Hebrew hayil "worthily," and 1 Cor 11:27,29, Greek anaxios "unworthily."

Do we really want to absolutize such terminology, and destructively base our theological systems on straining out gnats and swallowing camels -- as rampant denominationalism has already done?  Or is there a better way?

Personally, I'm confident that the literal, linear style of interpretation of only the KJV translation is the only true way to go!!! So give up our LDS truths for Calvinism.... or NOT.

As i have indicated elsewhere this shallow understanding of scripture based on an English translation without regard to all scripture has done much to harm modern Christianity. I have been to churches where "speaking in tongues" is taken totally out of context, and individuals get up and speak in total jibberish. Yeah, didn't go back to that church. Who knows what spirit is being channeled into that church... definitely one of lies.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Those denying the existence of butt nuggets may be butt nuggets themselves.

Did you make that sign Nehor? LOL

[RevTestament]

On 6/5/2017 at 6:49 AM, rodheadlee said:

I am one of the 3 that chose Option 1. I must be unworthy because they won't give me a TR or  a  patriarchal blessing . My sin is special, it's a WoW sin.

In my book WoW is not a commandment, but guidance for blessings. If you want the blessings, try to follow it. 
I suppose right now that includes ability to receive temple covenants. Is that what is delaying your temple sealing?

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Did you make that sign Nehor? LOL

No, it is amazing how useful Google Image search can be while replying on this board.

[RevTestament]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is amazing how useful Google Image search can be while replying on this board.

Darn. Hoping I could order one!  They seem to have taken the internet by storm.

[USU78]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:53 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Your all-encompassing theological statement here is not likely true, since "worthiness" is a highly relative term and translates various Hebrew and Greek words which vastly differ in meaning. When John the Baptizer declares in Luke 3:16 that he is not worthy to unloose Jesus' sandals, his original Aramaic word is rendered into Greek as hikanos "competent, worthy," while when Jesus declares the laborer worthy of his hire in Luke 10:7, his original Aramaic word is rendered as Greek axios "fit, proper, repentant."   So Ruth 4:11, Hebrew hayil "worthily," and 1 Cor 11:27,29, Greek anaxios "unworthily."

Do we really want to absolutize such terminology, and destructively base our theological systems on straining out gnats and swallowing camels -- as rampant denominationalism has already done?  Or is there a better way?

I'm impressed that the same standard applied by Saul/Paul to those who participate in Communion/The Sacrament is applied by LDS to all other serious endeavors, including temple-worthiness and the like, including baptism.  The covenant is the same no matter where one finds himself in the journey to G-d's presence (represented by the Celestial Room in the Temple).  Anaxios as "unrepentant" I hadn't heard before.  Thanks!

[halconero]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I've shared this before, I'm not a fan of reporting people. 

And particularly when the post in question has been publicly applauded by a number of LDS on the forum--if there's going to be a response, it must be made publicly.  Whether you label someone "unworthy" (like my little lds.org search exercise demonstrated in the OP) or you label them a "butt nugget" (as halconero saw fit to do at the bottom of page 1)--it's no good, Calm. 

Opposition to labels has been a recurring theme of my posts on this forum since I joined in 2013 (you may even recall one or two where we took opposite sides over use of the label "anti-Mormon").  My aversion to labels stems from my past experience as a member of the LDS Church.  Naturally I was hoping this might be a key takeaway for readers of the thread--that they would come to appreciate (if they don't already) that this language of their leaders is unhelpful, and even destructive.  And I will add this, the poll results here are actually encouraging.     

:0)

You should retract the reputation point you awarded to halconero, in my opinion. 

--Erik

________________________________

You labeled me
I labeled you
So I dub thee unforgiven

Never free
Never me
So I dub thee unforgiven

--Metallica, 1991

I retract my calling you a butt nugget, and apologize.

I do not retract my assertion that you're condescending and that while it might make you feel good, it gets you nowhere conversationally. Which then gets to the crux of the issue, are you bringing this up to have a good conversation and perhaps persuade others, or in order to feel good about yourself? If the former, my suggestion remains that you drop the lecturing attitude and air of superiority.

Calm is welcome to withdraw the rep point, or leave it as is. The fact that your response shows that you're more worried about the points and my ill-advised insult is telling with regards to how you see your own comments.

Edited June 6, 2017 by halconero

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If one of my kids talked like that, we'd take a time-out for conversation until there was an understanding (or at least acknowledgement) that such speech is inappropriate towards others--regardless of perceived provocation.  We can dispute our differences without labeling anyone a turd (implicitly, explicitly or otherwise).  But here it gets you reputation points from LDS. 

Click the heart & you can see who they are. 

--Erik 

PS.  But I really don't think it does them any credit, however satisfying it may have felt in the moment...

Any time someone uses the term "butt nugget", they are going to get a rep point from me (at least, they are more likely to)...would you prefer the terms boddagit or dingleberry?

To be fair, he didn't label you a butt nugget, he said that you are coming off as one.  There is a subtle but important difference

Personally, I prefer plain and colorful language to provocation, insult, and condescension hidden behind PC words and a polite tone.

[halconero]

Oh, and this whole Mormons-using-labels-but-Evangelicals-do-not thing is patently false unless you come from a very peculiar strain of Evangelical Christianity. I should know, my mom was part of the Alliance Church of Canada prior to baptism and I still get bombarded by my cousins who are mix of youth, music, and regular pastors.

Off the top of my head I can think of the following:

- Saved/Unsaved

- Pure (in the context of sexuality prior to marriage)

- Chaste/Unchaste (see above)

- Reborn/Born again

All of these can and are often used in the same sort of context/connotation as worthy/unworthy. I think it's worthwhile to discuss the implications of such speech in Christianity and Mormonism both, and how we can better utilize such language for the betterment of each other and bringing souls unto Christ. I do not think it's worthwhile to engage in browbeating over whether or not our synonym for the same meaning is better or worse.

[Okrahomer]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 6:21 PM, Five Solas said:

Unworthy music, unworthy feelings, unworthy thoughts, unworthy practices, unworthy touches, unworthy associations.  Unworthy is what you do...Unworthy baptism candidates, unworthy husbands, unworthy sons, unworthy priesthood holders, and various other sorts of unworthy persons—naturally including persons unworthy of temple recommends.  Unworthy is an identity, unworthy is who you are. 

PS.  In Protestantism, we're all unworthy, outside of Christ

:0)

 

John Calvin was not afraid to describe some people as being “unworthy” of partaking of the Lord’s Supper, and admonished church leaders to withhold it from them:

 

“And here also we must preserve the order of the Lord's Supper, that it may not be profaned by being administered indiscriminately.  For it is very true that he to whom its distribution has been committed, if he knowingly and willing admits an unworthy person whom he could rightfully turn away, is as guilty of sacrilege as if he had cast the Lord's body to dogs.”

 

So, when I read what he and other Reformed teachers have to say about “corrections and excommunications”, I do not see much difference.  There is obviously a belief here that Christians actually do sin and fall short.  But the fact that Reformed Churches even have to deal with “corrections and excommunications” seems to present a somewhat thorny theological problem.  If the people who join your Church are “predestined” to do so; if they have no “ability” to make that choice;  and are “irresistibly” drawn to it; and if their "election perseveres"; then why would God countenance His church going against His Sovereign Will?

[pogi]

On 6/4/2017 at 6:21 PM, Five Solas said:

 Last week I authored a thread asking whether the temple “unworthy” had a duty to not discuss or disclose temple attire here or in any public forum...

Several LDS members objected to my use of “unworthy”...

I think some people objected to the use of the word "unworthy" because (whether intentional or not) it appears as if you were caricaturing temple recommend holders as 'holier-than-thou' - As if we look down on you poor "unworthy" souls below us.  The term "temple unworthy" is not commonly used (I have never before heard it put that way), so it appears as if the term was crafted by you as an intentional dig.

The use of the word "worthy" in terms of temple worthiness is more accurately understood to mean eligible or intelligible.

Edited June 6, 2017 by pogi

[Meerkat]

I'm comfortable with the unworthy/worthy labels.  They give me a point of reference in my personal progress.  Those words are old friends of mine.  When I come to the Throne of Grace, filled with sorrow or sin for some regret (usually accidental these days,) I experience a cleansing and sanctification that lifts me to a higher place of wisdom and worthiness.  That's what I want.  I see my life's purpose becoming more worthy every day.  Part of that "becoming" is becoming comfortable with the meaning of words, working through the shame and embarrasment of comparing myself to people like you, the reader.  My comparison is to my old self, not you.  And I don't want you to feel judged, ashamed or unworthy because of my journey.  You have your own.  Ultimately, what we get out of this life depends on how we interpret the words and Emotions that we experience.  I see a great difference between shame and unworthiness.

[Okrahomer]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I'm comfortable with the unworthy/worthy labels.  They give me a point of reference in my personal progress.  Those words are old friends of mine.  When I come to the Throne of Grace, filled with sorrow or sin for some regret (usually accidental these days,) I experience a cleansing and sanctification that lifts me to a higher place of wisdom and worthiness.  That's what I want.  I see my life's purpose becoming more worthy every day.  Part of that "becoming" is becoming comfortable with the meaning of words, working through the shame and embarrasment of comparing myself to people like you, the reader.  My comparison is to my old self, not you.  And I don't want you to feel judged, ashamed or unworthy because of my journey.  You have your own.  Ultimately, what we get out of this life depends on how we interpret the words and Emotions that we experience.  I see a great difference between shame and unworthiness.

Amen!

[hagoth7]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I'm comfortable with the unworthy/worthy labels.  They give me a point of reference in my personal progress.  Those words are old friends of mine.  When I come to the Throne of Grace, filled with sorrow or sin for some regret (usually accidental these days,) I experience a cleansing and sanctification that lifts me to a higher place of wisdom and worthiness.  That's what I want.  I see my life's purpose becoming more worthy every day.  Part of that "becoming" is becoming comfortable with the meaning of words, working through the shame and embarrasment of comparing myself to people like you, the reader.  My comparison is to my old self, not you.  And I don't want you to feel judged, ashamed or unworthy because of my journey.  You have your own.  Ultimately, what we get out of this life depends on how we interpret the words and Emotions that we experience.  I see a great difference between shame and unworthiness.

Really wishing I could add several rep points for that.

I would add that we can *sometimes* benefit others when we at times genuinely consider ourselves unworthy or unprofitable servants. (Doesn't mean that we need to remain such.) And that we consider others better than ourselves. Last I checked, those were important parts of the playbook.

Thoughts?

Edited June 7, 2017 by hagoth7

[mfbukowski]

On 6/5/2017 at 8:25 AM, hagoth7 said:

You eat meat when it isn't winter or famine?

Heathen. 

:::divesting of all McDonalds stock:::

(Seriously for the briefest of moments, have been toying/experimenting with the idea of a diet based largely on other, less violent sources of protein.) 

Holy cow- I was just about to post a very similar comment about eating meat in the summer.

Scary that we would be on the same wavelength.

On the other hand I am toying with becoming a vegetarian also for health reasons but not the violence reason.   I enjoy murdering carrots and do it with glee.   BWAAHHHHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAAAA

[Meerkat]

5 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

 

10 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I'm comfortable with the unworthy/worthy labels.  They give me a point of reference in my personal progress.  Those words are old friends of mine.  When I come to the Throne of Grace, filled with sorrow or sin for some regret (usually accidental these days,) I experience a cleansing and sanctification that lifts me to a higher place of wisdom and worthiness.  That's what I want.  I see my life's purpose becoming more worthy every day.  Part of that "becoming" is becoming comfortable with the meaning of words, working through the shame and embarrasment of comparing myself to people like you, the reader.  My comparison is to my old self, not you.  And I don't want you to feel judged, ashamed or unworthy because of my journey.  You have your own.  Ultimately, what we get out of this life depends on how we interpret the words and Emotions that we experience.  I see a great difference between shame and unworthiness.

Really wishing I could add several rep points for that.

I would add that we can *sometimes* benefit others when we at times genuinely consider ourselves unworthy or unprofitable servants. (Doesn't mean that we need to remain such.) And that we consider others better than ourselves. Last I checked, those were important parts of the playbook.

Thoughts?

 

Hagoth 7, thank you for your comment.  You make a very interesting point.  Probably most of us lay a foundation for Christ in our lives by making decisions we regret. Those decisions, and the burdens they bring, help us discover our deep need for the Savior.  When I finally turned to Jesus Christ to lift those burdens (which He began to do almost immediately,) I was grateful to be forgiven.  When I was introduced to the Church and baptized, I had the impression that the slate was washed clean.  That meant there was no need to revisit those dark days of sin and sorrow.  

One day, a beloved child asked me "Dad, you were a child of the 60's.  Did you ever do drugs?  Were you part of the Woodstock crowd?"  My response was "My dear child, whatever I have done in the past has been forgiven through Christ's suffering for me.  I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you on those questions because I believe my sins (whatever they were) have been washed away.

I was glad that I didn't need to step down off my pedestal and reveal that I had been a sinner at one point in my life, quite unlike the perfection I have experienced since (that's a joke :-) )  The point I was missing was that my child wasn't asking about my experience.  They were asking about theirs.  "How would you feel if I wasn't the perfect child you thought I was.  Would you still love me?"   "Is the Church really true?  I'm not feeling it these days."  "Dad, I don't know how I got here.  What do I do?"

Had I been wise, or humble, or close to the Spirit I would have said "Dear child, yes, I've been a great sinner in my life.  And I felt so bad there was only one place I could go for peace and relief.  It didn't come easy.  I had to repent.  I had to be willing to set my pride on the shelf and with broken heart cry out my sorrows to God. That's when I learned for myself that the Savior is real.  He bled in the Garden for me.  I know it because my burden was lifted in a miraculous way and my sorrow was replaced with joy and gladness.  And I know that, if or when the time comes that you make a mistake, He will be there for you too with love and mercy and joy.  And I will be there too because there is nothing you could ever do that would keep me from loving you."

That's not what I said though.  And that child went through years of struggle and sorrow, trying to figure out what to do.  I didn't see it until finally the light went on and I confessed that I had not always been as "perfect" as I am today.  That was the beginning of healing for them and for us.

So, my dear friend, I agree with your comment.  We can sometimes benefit others, if we do it carefully with humility, sensitivity and a listening ear. 

 

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Holy cow- 

Perhaps so. As in, They shall neither hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain...

For those who feel so inclined...

Edited June 7, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Scary that we would be on the same wavelength.

Had to happen eventually. Twice a day, I tell the right time. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 ...One day, a beloved child asked me "Dad, you were a child of the 60's.  Did you ever do drugs?  Were you part of the Woodstock crowd?"...The point I was missing was that my child wasn't asking about my experience.  They were asking about theirs.  "How would you feel if I wasn't the perfect child you thought I was.  Would you still love me?"   "Is the Church really true?  I'm not feeling it these days."  "Dad, I don't know how I got here.  What do I do?"

Had I been wise, or humble, or close to the Spirit I would have said "Dear child, yes, I've been a great sinner in my life.  And I felt so bad there was only one place I could go for peace and relief.  It didn't come easy.  I had to repent.  I had to be willing to set my pride on the shelf and with broken heart cry out my sorrows to God. That's when I learned for myself that the Savior is real.  He bled in the Garden for me.  I know it because my burden was lifted in a miraculous way and my sorrow was replaced with joy and gladness.  And I know that, if or when the time comes that you make a mistake, He will be there for you too with love and mercy and joy.  And I will be there too because there is nothing you could ever do that would keep me from loving you."

That's not what I said though.  And that child went through years of struggle and sorrow, trying to figure out what to do.  I didn't see it until finally the light went on and I confessed that I had not always been as "perfect" as I am today.  That was the beginning of healing for them and for us. ...

A post of that caliber -  an armor-piercing round to the heart - is the core reason God created the internet. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by hagoth7

[mfbukowski]

27 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Perhaps so. As in, They shall neither hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain...?

Yeah but off the mountain.....  

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

A post of that caliber -  an armor-piercing round to the heart - is the core reason God created the internet. 

I agree. so many conversations I have replayed in my mind with my children..Meekrat, this post is awesome...truthful..and from the heart.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Had I been wise, or humble, or close to the Spirit I would have said "Dear child, yes, I've been a great sinner in my life.  And I felt so bad there was only one place I could go for peace and relief.  It didn't come easy.  I had to repent.  I had to be willing to set my pride on the shelf and with broken heart cry out my sorrows to God. That's when I learned for myself that the Savior is real.  He bled in the Garden for me.  I know it because my burden was lifted in a miraculous way and my sorrow was replaced with joy and gladness.  And I know that, if or when the time comes that you make a mistake, He will be there for you too with love and mercy and joy.  And I will be there too because there is nothing you could ever do that would keep me from loving you."

That's not what I said though.  And that child went through years of struggle and sorrow, trying to figure out what to do.  I didn't see it until finally the light went on and I confessed that I had not always been as "perfect" as I am today.  That was the beginning of healing for them and for us.

Dang that would have been a good answer for me to use too.

Being me of course I said "Sure I was.  So if you want to wake up in the middle of the woods barfing all over yourself and not knowing who or where you are, go for it!  I had friends with brain damage from all that. There's no fun there and a lot of pain, but if that's your choice...."

That worked but I like yours better.