Salt Lake Tribune article on LDS and Protestants in Utah converting to Orthodoxy

[Teancum]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 7:49 PM, boblloyd91 said:

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2017/05/utah-mormons-protestants-finding-new-spiritual-home-ancient-orthodox-church/

 

So this article has been making the rounds lately which I have found interesting. Apparently there has been such a large amount of growth (from conversions) that they are working on building a bigger church. I will share more of my thoughts soon, but in the meantime I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this.

This is very interesting. I have often said if I was not to stay in the Mormon Church and want to look elsewhere for Christian Worship I would choose the Catholic Church. Perhaps that is some due to where I live and the predominance of the Catholic Church here.  However I have been to numerous Catholic services and find much uplifting and noble about the High Church liturgical approach.  So I think I appreciate this.

[CameronDavis]

3 hours ago, CameronDavis said:

Hi everyone! A friend alerted me to this discussion so I thought I would jump in and introduce myself! I am the Cameron Davis mentioned in that article, and you can read my full interview here: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/05/13/utah-mormon-orthodox-convert/

Anyways, I am happy to answer any questions you might have, either in this thread or in a PM. In the meantime, here is a bit about myself.

I grew up in Idaho before moving to Logan. I went to Utah State University, where (after undergrad degrees in philosophy and religious studies) I studied for an MA in history under Dr. Philip Barlow, who is likely known to many of you, and Dr. Norm Jones. I was then accepted to Princeton Theological Seminary and Duke Divinity but I opted not to continue my education (at least formally). I count many current Mormon scholars as dear friends and acquaintances, including Dan Wotherspoon, Brad Kime, Don Bradley, and Greg Prince. I was raised in a devout LDS household and both my mother's and my father's sides are multi-generational Mormon. In 2009, I began to feel drawn towards more traditional forms of Christian worship. I first attended an Episcopalian parish because I tend to be left-leaning in my politics and that was a nice fit. After some time, though, I moved onto Catholicism. Via Catholicism I learned about Eastern Orthodoxy and the rest is history. I was baptized and chrismated in 2014.

Thanks for reading!

 

[readstoomuch]

4 hours ago, CameronDavis said:

Hi everyone! A friend alerted me to this discussion so I thought I would jump in and introduce myself! I am the Cameron Davis mentioned in that article, and you can read my full interview here: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/05/13/utah-mormon-orthodox-convert/

Anyways, I am happy to answer any questions you might have, either in this thread or in a PM. In the meantime, here is a bit about myself.

I grew up in Idaho before moving to Logan. I went to Utah State University, where (after undergrad degrees in philosophy and religious studies) I studied for an MA in history under Dr. Philip Barlow, who is likely known to many of you, and Dr. Norm Jones. I was then accepted to Princeton Theological Seminary and Duke Divinity but I opted not to continue my education (at least formally). I count many current Mormon scholars as dear friends and acquaintances, including Dan Wotherspoon, Brad Kime, Don Bradley, and Greg Prince. I was raised in a devout LDS household and both my mother's and my father's sides are multi-generational Mormon. In 2009, I began to feel drawn towards more traditional forms of Christian worship. I first attended an Episcopalian parish because I tend to be left-leaning in my politics and that was a nice fit. After some time, though, I moved onto Catholicism. Via Catholicism I learned about Eastern Orthodoxy and the rest is history. I was baptized and chrismated in 2014.

Thanks for reading!

I am so glad you found a home as a believer in a tradition centered in Christ.  I would LOVE it if my two oldest children would make a choice like this instead of the secular agnostic streak they seem to be on now.  

[boblloyd91]

11 hours ago, CameronDavis said:

 

Hi Cameron! I'm the one who started the discussion. I actually had Norm Jones as my instructor in a history of Christianity class when I was at USU. My major was social work though so I didn't pursue that much further. My question for you (and this is a very broad question) is how do you view the LDS faith now?

[CameronDavis]

13 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

I am so glad you found a home as a believer in a tradition centered in Christ.  I would LOVE it if my two oldest children would make a choice like this instead of the secular agnostic streak they seem to be on now.  

Hi readstoomuch. I too lament the fact that the majority of individuals today are abandoning the faiths in which they were raised for secular alternatives. I hope that the philosopher Charles Taylor is correct in arguing that eventually this is going to lead to an uncomfortable cross tension that will help lead people back to belief in the transcendent.

2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Hi Cameron! I'm the one who started the discussion. I actually had Norm Jones as my instructor in a history of Christianity class when I was at USU. My major was social work though so I didn't pursue that much further. My question for you (and this is a very broad question) is how do you view the LDS faith now?

Hi boblloyd 19. Norm Jones is a wonderful man and I still make it a point to meet with him at least a couple times a year. I was his teaching assistant for his "History of Christianity in the West" course and he let me give a few of the lectures! As for your question, it can be answered from different angles.

In terms of how the LDS faith influences and shapes people and communities, my view is generally positive. Most of my neighbors and colleagues are LDS and they are good people. I don't like that, since the days of Skousen and Benson, the LDS population has bought into many of the (in my opinion) more negative elements of the neocon movement, but I recognize that this isn't a necessary aspect of the LDS faith. 

In terms of what the LDS faith claims to be (i.e. a restoration of the most legitimate, primitive strand/strands of Christianity) I am in disagreement, which I am sure goes without saying. Additionally, while there are positive elements of the LDS faith, owing to the fact it does rely on Christian scripture, I do think that it is bad/negative/wrong  (take your pick) that it continues to propagate (what I see as) a flawed version of Christianity. That said, I would say this about many different Christian movements and I hold the LDS faith in higher regard than some of the more vitriolic forms of fundamentalism that span various Christian traditions.

As for how I view the advent and development of the LDS faith, this is something I haven't fully worked out since I have yet to pay it much thought. I think Mormonism becomes less outstanding and less profound when one studies the Second Great Awakening as a whole, and when one comes to see how "American" and post-enlightenment the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's ideas seem and, in general, I find the prescriptions and answers offered by the Orthodox Christian tradition more moving, insightful, beautiful, and persuasive than any of the evidences my LDS friends have offered. That said, I don't have a well-developed theory of how the Book of Mormon was created or anything like that.

I hope nothing I have said has offended. I mean only to speak openly and honestly.

Christ's blessings be with all of you.

[boblloyd91]

3 hours ago, CameronDavis said:

Hi readstoomuch. I too lament the fact that the majority of individuals today are abandoning the faiths in which they were raised for secular alternatives. I hope that the philosopher Charles Taylor is correct in arguing that eventually this is going to lead to an uncomfortable cross tension that will help lead people back to belief in the transcendent.

Hi boblloyd 19. Norm Jones is a wonderful man and I still make it a point to meet with him at least a couple times a year. I was his teaching assistant for his "History of Christianity in the West" course and he let me give a few of the lectures! As for your question, it can be answered from different angles.

In terms of how the LDS faith influences and shapes people and communities, my view is generally positive. Most of my neighbors and colleagues are LDS and they are good people. I don't like that, since the days of Skousen and Benson, the LDS population has bought into many of the (in my opinion) more negative elements of the neocon movement, but I recognize that this isn't a necessary aspect of the LDS faith. 

In terms of what the LDS faith claims to be (i.e. a restoration of the most legitimate, primitive strand/strands of Christianity) I am in disagreement, which I am sure goes without saying. Additionally, while there are positive elements of the LDS faith, owing to the fact it does rely on Christian scripture, I do think that it is bad/negative/wrong  (take your pick) that it continues to propagate (what I see as) a flawed version of Christianity. That said, I would say this about many different Christian movements and I hold the LDS faith in higher regard than some of the more vitriolic forms of fundamentalism that span various Christian traditions.

As for how I view the advent and development of the LDS faith, this is something I haven't fully worked out since I have yet to pay it much thought. I think Mormonism becomes less outstanding and less profound when one studies the Second Great Awakening as a whole, and when one comes to see how "American" and post-enlightenment the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's ideas seem and, in general, I find the prescriptions and answers offered by the Orthodox Christian tradition more moving, insightful, beautiful, and persuasive than any of the evidences my LDS friends have offered. That said, I don't have a well-developed theory of how the Book of Mormon was created or anything like that.

I hope nothing I have said has offended. I mean only to speak openly and honestly.

Christ's blessings be with all of you.

No offense taken at all! I respect your well worded and kind response. I have been fascinated with Orthodoxy for a number of years. When I was living in Boise getting my Master's degree I visited an Orthodox parish. I went to a Sunday service and visited with the congregation afterwards. I wanted to maybe start attending there as well as my LDS ward, but my wife put the kibbosh on that. I'm under no illusion that they can both be right so I've been studying quite a bit. My kindle library is full of books about Orthodoxy as well as LDS books. I may get more of an urgency to have to figure things out more someday but for now I am simply enjoying the journey of reading and learning all I can.

Edited June 30, 2017 by boblloyd91

[CameronDavis]

4 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

 I have been fascinated with Orthodoxy for a number of years. When I was living in Boise getting my Master's degree I visited an Orthodox parish. I went to a Sunday service and visited with the congregation afterwards. I wanted to maybe start attending there as well as my LDS ward, but my wife put the kibbosh on that. I'm under no illusion that they can both be right so I've been studying quite a bit. My kindle library is full of books about Orthodoxy as well as LDS books. I may get more of an urgency to have to figure things out more someday but for now I am simply enjoying the journey of reading and learning all I can.

My good friend, after losing his LDS faith, started attending a Greek parish in Phoenix following my recommendation and really loves it.

What Orthodox books have you read so far? I'd love to give some recommendations (and some warnings).

[boblloyd91]

2 minutes ago, CameronDavis said:

My good friend, after losing his LDS faith, started attending a Greek parish in Phoenix following my recommendation and really loves it.

What Orthodox books have you read so far? I'd love to give some recommendations (and some warnings).

I've read the way of the pilgrim,how to be a healing presence, things by Frederica Matthews Greene, unlearning God, Born to Hate Reborn to Love, works by Kallistos Ware, and I'm also working my way through the church fathers. I'm currently reading Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho

[theplains]

On 28/06/2017 at 4:38 PM, RevTestament said:

Exactly, who was Jesus speaking to Jim?

Does that include all Israelites? Mary? the apostles?

Sometimes children go astray and follow the adversary. That doesn't mean they aren't sons.

Study Romans 8:1-16 and Galatians 3:26 - 5:1-10.   If will explain which of  two groups YOU are in ...
either an adopted child (and co-heir with Christ) or a child of the flesh (without an inheritance).

Thanks,
Jim

[MiserereNobis]

Perhaps one day there will be reunification of East and West. I like how Pope St. John Paul II said that the Eastern and Western Churches are the two lungs of Christianity.

Let's not forget that there are the Eastern Catholic Churches, which are in liturgy and practice basically indistinguishable from the Orthodoxy, but they accept the Pope as the Supreme Head of Christendom.

From wikipedia:

Quote

The Eastern Catholic Churches or Oriental Catholic Churches, also called the Eastern-rite Catholic Churches, Greek Catholic Churches, and in some historical cases Uniate Churches,^[a] are 23 Eastern Christian particular churches sui iuris in full communion with the Pope in Rome, as part of the worldwide Catholic Church.

Headed by patriarchs, metropolitans, and major archbishops, the Eastern Catholic Churches are governed in accordance with the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, although each church also has its own canons and laws on top of this, and the preservation of their own traditions is explicitly encouraged. The total membership of the various churches accounts for about 16 million, according to the Annuario Pontificio, thus making up about 1.5 percent of the Catholic Church, with the rest of its more than 1.2 billion members belonging to the Latin Church.

...

Full communion constitutes mutual sacramental sharing between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Latin Church, including Eucharistic intercommunion. On the other hand, the liturgical traditions of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches, including Byzantine, Alexandrian, Armenian, East Syrian, and West Syrian, are shared with other Eastern Christian churches: the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Ancient Church of the East. Although some theological issues divide the Eastern Catholic churches from other Eastern Christian ones, they do admit members of the latter to the Eucharist and the other sacraments, as governed by Oriental canon law.

Notably, Eastern Catholic churches apply different traditions concerning clerical celibacy than the Latin Church: in general, Eastern Catholic Churches allow the ordination of married men as priests.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[RevTestament]

12 minutes ago, theplains said:

Study Romans 8:1-16 and Galatians 3:26 - 5:1-10.   If will explain which of  two groups YOU are in ...
either an adopted child (and co-heir with Christ) or a child of the flesh (without an inheritance).

Thanks,
Jim

And you can't change? A child of the flesh cannot be an adopted son/daughter and co-heir with Christ? I thought that was the lesson of Adam and Eve?

What does co-heir mean Jim? Co-heir of what? What does Christ inherit? What will He be called? Does the doctrine of the trinity help or harm that?

[theplains]

On 01/07/2017 at 11:05 AM, RevTestament said:

And you can't change? A child of the flesh cannot be an adopted son/daughter and co-heir with Christ? I thought that was the lesson of Adam and Eve?

What does co-heir mean Jim? Co-heir of what? What does Christ inherit? What will He be called? Does the doctrine of the trinity help or harm that?

According to LDS theology, only the sons of God (through adoption) become exalted beings. The scripture
that I mentioned previously refers to only two classes of people. Those born of God and those born of the
flesh.  

What does Romans 8 teach about you?

Those who are not born of God (who are not joint-heirs with Christ) are regarded as illegitimate children.  
Hebrews 12:8 (KJV) refers to such as "bastards, and not sons".  For that reason, I would regard the LDS
teaching as false.

For LDS teachings on what it means to be a joint-heir with Christ, I cite the following and italicise a few parts:

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng
“… [The righteous who have died] shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to
sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it?
To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a
god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.”

“They who obtain a glorious resurrection from the dead, are exalted far above principalities, powers, thrones,
dominions and angels, and are expressly declared to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, all
having eternal power [see Romans 8:17].”

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-8-pauls-witness-as-a-missionary/chapter-40-heirs-of-god-and-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles-instructors-guide-rel-211-12/heirs-of-god-and-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-epistle-of-paul-the-apostle-to-the-romans/romans-8-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-3?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/introduction-to-romans/unit-21-day-1-romans-8-11?lang=eng

"Therefore, when we receive “the Spirit of adoption”"(Romans 8:15) through entering the gospel covenant,
we become the children of God and “joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17)."

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

According to LDS theology, only the sons of God (through adoption) become exalted beings. The scripture
that I mentioned previously refers to only two classes of people. Those born of God and those born of the
flesh.  

What does Romans 8 teach about you?

Those who are not born of God (who are not joint-heirs with Christ) are regarded as illegitimate children.  
Hebrews 12:8 (KJV) refers to such as "bastards, and not sons".  For that reason, I would regard the LDS
teaching as false.

For LDS teachings on what it means to be a joint-heir with Christ, I cite the following and italicise a few parts:

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng
“… [The righteous who have died] shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to
sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it?
To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a
god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.”

“They who obtain a glorious resurrection from the dead, are exalted far above principalities, powers, thrones,
dominions and angels, and are expressly declared to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, all
having eternal power [see Romans 8:17].”

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-8-pauls-witness-as-a-missionary/chapter-40-heirs-of-god-and-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles-instructors-guide-rel-211-12/heirs-of-god-and-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-epistle-of-paul-the-apostle-to-the-romans/romans-8-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-3?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/introduction-to-romans/unit-21-day-1-romans-8-11?lang=eng

"Therefore, when we receive “the Spirit of adoption”"(Romans 8:15) through entering the gospel covenant,
we become the children of God and “joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17)."

Thanks,
Jim

I really don't get your point Jim. You seem to have a static view of the gospel. When children of the flesh repent they are adopted as sons and daughters, even as Christ was adopted as the only begotten. see Hebrews 1. The Father made Jesus His only begotten. He inherits His name, etc. LDS teach that 1 Peter and 1 Corinthians mean that Jesus taught those who had died before him while His body lay in the tomb, so they could repent, and be resurrected with him. We find Jesus too saying as much in John:

John 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the ^adead shall ^bhear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall ^clive.

In LDS interpretation of the afterlife, the spirit world is divided into 2 parts - spirit prison or hell, and paradise. You'll note that Jesus told one of the thieves on the crosses with Him that he would be in paradise that day with Him. Revelation teaches that hell will give up its dead in the last resurrection to be judged. Why? Why be judged if you are already condemned to everlasting hell fire? What is the point? If you cannot repent and be saved from hell, I proffer there is no point to be judged. That reveals a fundamental flaw in Protestant theology Jim.

I am unsure what you feel is false about LDS teaching. I agree with you that not all sons will become JHWH Elohim with our Savior at the end of this world. But all have that potential in the eternal lives. But I believe all sons and daughters of the first resurrection will be elohim like the children of the Most High in Psalms 82 - so if that is what you are griping about, that is my take on that. The Savior invited all His followers into His Father's House of the Elohim - the family house - as His family. It's up to you whether you accept the invitation or not. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by RevTestament

[theplains]

On 03/07/2017 at 3:38 PM, RevTestament said:

I really don't get your point Jim. You seem to have a static view of the gospel. When children of the flesh repent they are adopted as sons and daughters, even as Christ was adopted as the only begotten. see Hebrews 1.

From the passages that I referenced to LDS teachings, only the adopted sons and daughters are gods and goddesses.
The others are children of the devil.  This was my main point.

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

From the passages that I referenced to LDS teachings, only the adopted sons and daughters are gods and goddesses.
The others are children of the devil.  This was my main point.

Thanks,
Jim

You cite two scriptures which you seem to be concluding show LDS teaching to be false:

On 7/1/2017 at 8:48 AM, theplains said:

Study Romans 8:1-16 and Galatians 3:26 - 5:1-10.   If will explain which of  two groups YOU are in ...
either an adopted child (and co-heir with Christ) or a child of the flesh (without an inheritance).

Thanks,
Jim

Again, I don't see how that is different than LDS teaching. LDS simply teach children of the flesh die and can be saved from spirit prison. That is the difference. You seem to be concluding that LDS teaching is false because children of the flesh die without an inheritance, whereas LDS teach almost everyone will be saved. What I keep repeating is that those who die unsaved can repent and receive an inheritance. This is why Yeshua said the dead who heard his voice would live. You continue not to address the fundamental flaw in Protestant teaching about the subject. To you those who die without an inheritance are doomed to everlasting hell, but that cannot be the case if hell gives them up to be resurrected and judged at the last day. And it cannot be the case for Yeshua's own words to make any sense. If their plight could not be changed, Jesus could not have uttered those words in John. Protestant teaching goes directly against your Savior's own words.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/3/2017 at 6:49 PM, boblloyd91 said:

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2017/05/utah-mormons-protestants-finding-new-spiritual-home-ancient-orthodox-church/

So this article has been.

Thanks you so much for running this Article. I saw even more amazing something than your post intended; Out goodOld friend Hank Hanegraaf is converted to Greek Othodox Church, which is an "absolute No No for a Born again Fundie like him....

[theplains]

On 07/07/2017 at 0:30 AM, RevTestament said:

You cite two scriptures which you seem to be concluding show LDS teaching to be false:

Again, I don't see how that is different than LDS teaching. LDS simply teach children of the flesh die and can be saved from spirit prison. 

See Romans chapter 8 and decide if you are led by the Spirit (being a son of God and joint heir with Christ) or of
the flesh.

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, theplains said:

See Romans chapter 8 and decide if you are led by the Spirit (being a son of God and joint heir with Christ) or of
the flesh.

Thanks,
Jim

i know by whom I am led friend. I think you have more worries there. Cheers.

[theplains]

On 11/07/2017 at 10:03 PM, RevTestament said:

i know by whom I am led friend. I think you have more worries there. Cheers.

If you are led by the Spirit of God, then you are a joint-heir with Christ. 

Jim

[RevTestament]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:17 AM, theplains said:

If you are led by the Spirit of God, then you are a joint-heir with Christ. 

Jim

This gets into the usual modern semantics battle. If you are led by the Spirit of God, then you will want to follow Christ, get baptized, follow His commandments and even do His works. However, many modern churches have adopted Calvinistic viewpoints on justification and grace and don't even believe they need to get baptized anymore. So I would say if you refuse to get baptized and to follow His commandments you are not following the Spirit of God, and are not led by the Holy Spirit but by a spirit of contention.

[theplains]

On 17/07/2017 at 1:53 PM, RevTestament said:

This gets into the usual modern semantics battle. If you are led by the Spirit of God, then you will want to follow Christ, get baptized, follow His commandments and even do His works. 

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?   Notice how Jesus changes the
focus on "work" (singular).   "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him
whom he hath sent."

Fallen human nature leds some to believe they can earn their own salvation (with Christ making up any shortfall).

Jim

 

[RevTestament]

On 7/25/2017 at 4:17 PM, theplains said:

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?   Notice how Jesus changes the
focus on "work" (singular).   "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him
whom he hath sent."

Fallen human nature leds some to believe they can earn their own salvation (with Christ making up any shortfall).

Jim

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and ^akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be ^bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will ^cmanifest myself to him.

[3DOP]

On 7/1/2017 at 7:58 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps one day there will be reunification of East and West. I like how Pope St. John Paul II said that the Eastern and Western Churches are the two lungs of Christianity.

Let's not forget that there are the Eastern Catholic Churches, which are in liturgy and practice basically indistinguishable from the Orthodoxy, but they accept the Pope as the Supreme Head of Christendom.

From wikipedia:

 

I don't remember where I learned this, but I find it interesting that Rome has always permitted the Eastern Churches to recite the Nicene Creed without the Filioque. Obviously, this would continue whenever unification happens. I wonder if the East could be content with that, or would the Latin profession of faith be a stumbling block. In light of the message of Our Lady of Fatima (conversion of Russia), it seems like this could happen more quickly than we could possibly foresee.

[theplains]

On 27/07/2017 at 3:36 PM, RevTestament said:

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and ^akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be ^bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will ^cmanifest myself to him.

I see agreement between us.

1 John 5:1-5 - "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him
that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when
we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is
the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that
believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? "

The ones capable of love are those born of God; joint-heirs of Christ (Romans 8).  However, from what I
have read in LDS teaching manuals, the joint-heirs of Christ are exalted beings (the gods and goddesses).  

But this is not biblical teaching if you read chapter 8 in Romans and Galatians 3,4,5.  Those who are not
joint-heirs are children of the flesh and cannot please God. They don't have an inheritance.

Thanks,
Jim
 

 

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

I see agreement between us.

1 John 5:1-5 - "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him
that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when
we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is
the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that
believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? "

The ones capable of love are those born of God; joint-heirs of Christ (Romans 8).  However, from what I
have read in LDS teaching manuals, the joint-heirs of Christ are exalted beings (the gods and goddesses).  

But this is not biblical teaching if you read chapter 8 in Romans and Galatians 3,4,5.  Those who are not
joint-heirs are children of the flesh and cannot please God. They don't have an inheritance.

Thanks,
Jim

No But. Those who die as children of the flesh go to spirit prison/hell, but can still repent and be saved. See 1 Peter 3-4.  Else there is no reason for hell to give up its dead to the resurrection and to be judged. That is the difference in our understanding of the gospel. 

I don't understand where you get the understanding that joint heirs as exalted beings is not biblical. Doesn't the Bible say that Christ gives us power to become the sons and daughters of God? Per Psalms 82 aren't the children of the Most High El called Elohim?

Edited July 31, 2017 by RevTestament