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Salt Lake Tribune article on LDS and Protestants in Utah converting to Orthodoxy


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48 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Please share. It's not like I don't want there to be a god. Would be nice if a heavenly father gives me immorality and heaven. 

You seem really big into immorality. Have you considered an orgy or a twinkie binge?

48 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

There are many possibilities, but let me clarify that I don't believe in ghosts, evil spirits, haunted houses, reiki, aliens playing games with humans, dowsing, witchcraft, rabbit's foot, psychics, reptilian aliens controlling the government, faith healing.

For mighty Odin shall smite the faithless and those in Valhalla shall nibble the meat from their bones for all eternity. Repent for Ragnarok is NIGH!

48 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Yes according to your table 62% are atheists or agnostics, compared to 6% of the general population. Only 9% of scientists believe without any doubt. 

It is interesting that Atheists and Agnostics are contributing more to science than Theists (Theism). Why do you think that is? 

Oh please! Can we please have this tedious and boring conversation again? Where you imagine your life would be bliss and some scientist would have solved all your problems if only those filthy theists would study physics and engineering a bit more?

Edited by The Nehor
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57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You seem really big into immorality. Have you considered an orgy or a twinkie binge?

Yes the first option is heaven, I have no idea what the second option is.  

Can you please share the evidence that a heavenly father cares about us and faith? 

57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh please! Can we please have this tedious and boring conversation again? Where you imagine your life would be bliss and some scientist would have solved all your problems if only those filthy theists would study physics and engineering a bit more?

Science has already solve many of our problems. No one knows the limits of science.
Science may be the most important thing we as humans do. Imagine if science finds the cure for aging and even immortality? We probably wouldn't need the plan of salvation if that ever happens. 

Edited by MormonVideoGame
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"Science has already solve many of our problems."

Not really.  It has given us tools that help solve problems, but without community effort (a great deal of which can come from religious communities) to use those tools, problems remain unsolved no matter what science does.

For example, medical care for children has greatly expanded.  But it never gets near a kid until some foots the bill.  Science doesn't do that, though it can help cut costs through new technology.  Otoh, Primary Children's Hospital services are in part paid for by fundraising in the Mormon community (Pennies By the Inch).

http://www.penniesbytheinch.org/

"Pennies by the Inch continues a tradition of helping children at Primary Children's Hospital that is nearly a century long. Each year, thousands of volunteers go door-to-door inviting friends and neighbors to measure tall when giving generously for children in need. 


100% of your donation to Pennies by the Inch is used to meet the needs of hospitalized children at Primary Children's Hospital."

In our stake, it is a yearly achievement day stake activity, with the girls doing the collecting and ice cream sundaes at the stake center afterwards.  I don't remember doing it in Canada, but wasn't a AD leader then, so it may have been done in some fashion.

Edited by Calm
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Then there are the problems Science created (if one uses your standard), like obesity epidemic from an abundance of sugars and flours that are not naturally occurring, but are refined in staggering amounts; massive pollution in our landfills of plastics and chemicals from discarded tech and other nonbiodegradables; pesticides and other nasty stuff getting into water sources; radiation contamination from bombs; mass killings able to occur due to the Science that produced explosives, guns, all sorts of weapons; an epidemic of addictions and overdoses due to the Science that created synthetic opioids as well as designer drugs; man made climate change...probably primarily caused by science that created the technology as well as allowed humanity's numbers to grow to the point they could have a global effect., etc.

Edited by Calm
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8 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Yes the first option is heaven, I have no idea what the second option is.  

Can you please share the evidence that a heavenly father cares about us and faith? 

Science has already solve many of our problems. No one knows the limits of science.
Science may be the most important thing we as humans do. Imagine if science finds the cure for aging and even immortality? We probably wouldn't need the plan of salvation if that ever happens. 

The Plan of Salvation is about living a different kind of life. I would not want immortality on this Earth in this state. You have a puerile understanding of the LDS faith if your takeaway is that we live much like we do now forever.

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On 6/3/2017 at 6:55 PM, MormonVideoGame said:

What if Anglicanism is the most complete path to God, and the LDS church is one of the paths with partial truths? 

Or is Anglicanism too liberal? 

By the way, how do you know there is a god that cares about faith and religious paths? Some neurologists argue god is an illusion, how do you know they are wrong? Ever read the Illusion of God's presence book? Our brains are very good in finding patterns... many believe in dowsing, rabbit's foot, reincarnation, reiki, haunted houses, witchcraft because of that. 

FYI 

the Anglican Orthodox Church performs same sex marriages. 

"Anglican" and "Orthodox" in the same sentence?

That church was formed in 1963 and has had problems since its formation.  Look it up.

Any church that believes in original sin- that because we were "born that way" as humans, we inherited the sin of Adam- AND believes that being gay is OK BECAUSE they were "born that way" is simply self contradictory.

If it is ok to be gay because gay folks were "born that way" then how could mankind have original sin because they were "born that way"? 

Central contradiction.

Any quasi-Christian church which believes in original sin has that central contradiction.  

And if God is just a brain-state then so is blue and love the idea of "freedom" and folks die for those all the time.   I suppose you have never been in love then, right?  Just remember if it happens that it is just a brain-state and so is everything else in your brain.

I have no problem with my brain states- in fact that is how I live my life.  You have no brain states that you see as "real"??   Sorry- everything you know is a brain state!

That means every memory you have and every perception of everything around you is not real, if brain states are not real.

That's a serious problem.

Edited by mfbukowski
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9 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Yes the first option is heaven, I have no idea what the second option is.  

Can you please share the evidence that a heavenly father cares about us and faith? 

Science has already solve many of our problems. No one knows the limits of science.
Science may be the most important thing we as humans do. Imagine if science finds the cure for aging and even immortality? We probably wouldn't need the plan of salvation if that ever happens. 

And science is going to do all this without neurological states right?  No brain activity in any scientists?

Sounds a tad problematic to me.

Every observation they make is a neurological activity.  If that makes things unreal, we are in trouble.

Falling off a cliff, stubbing your toe and looking at the world around you are "just neurological activities" as well.

Ya gotta watch those brain states.  They sneak up on you that way.  Try as I might, they just won't go away.

Edited by mfbukowski
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10 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Yes according to your table 62% are atheists or agnostics, compared to 6% of the general population. Only 9% of scientists believe without any doubt. 

It is interesting that Atheism and Agnosticism seem to produce more scientists than Theism. Why do you think that is? 

Note that it's not 9% of scientists but those in that particular criteria which is much, much smaller than the number of scientists. There's a strong selection bias at elite schools.

I am skeptical atheists produce more scientists. That's not what is measured. Rather I think those who go through grad school with an intention of doing academics at elite schools partially pick up the culture and secondly typically have a skepticism that errs on the side of rejection.

If you click through the links you'll see other studies that aren't just measuring elites. A more loose criteria only has 24.4% as atheists/agnostic. But even though among the elite scientists at the top 21 universities about half are religious. We should note that unlike in Mormonism most Christianity doesn't emphasize knowledge but faith without evidence. So I'm not sure the certainty question tells us much about religiosity.

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6 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I am skeptical atheists produce more scientists. That's not what is measured. Rather I think those who go through grad school with an intention of doing academics at elite schools partially pick up the culture and secondly typically have a skepticism that errs on the side of rejection. If you click through the links you'll see other studies that aren't just measuring elites. A more loose criteria only has 24.4% as atheists/agnostic. 

but even 24% is still very impressive because only 6% are atheists/agnostic in the general population. No doubt Atheism produces a lot of scientists. 

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And science is going to do all this without neurological states right?  No brain activity in any scientists?

I am asking about hallucinations, randomness, and false pattern recognition. 

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Plan of Salvation is about living a different kind of life. I would not want immortality on this Earth in this state. You have a puerile understanding of the LDS faith if your takeaway is that we live much like we do now forever.

I know in LDS thought there is difference between "eternal life" and "living forever", I have known that since I was like 6 years old. 

Please. But anyway immortality would be good enough for me. 

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Not really.  It has given us tools that help solve problems, but without community effort (a great deal of which can come from religious communities) to use those tools, problems remain unsolved no matter what science does in some fashion.

Yes it is up to us. However, how much progress have we humans made without science? What did we accomplish before modern science began?

15 hours ago, Calm said:

mass killings able to occur due to the Science that produced explosives, guns, all sorts of weapons; an epidemic of addictions and overdoses due to the Science that created synthetic opioids as well as designer drugs; man made climate change...probably primarily caused by science that created the technology as well as allowed humanity's numbers to grow to the point they could have a global effect., etc.

So has science done more harm or good? What do you think? 

As for climate change, it is climate science deniers that are the problem. 

15 hours ago, Calm said:

 mass killings able to occur due to the Science that produced explosives, guns, all sorts of weapons; 

I think mass killing rates worldwide are decreasing, when was the last time en evil dictator killed millions? 

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59 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

but even 24% is still very impressive because only 6% are atheists/agnostic in the general population. No doubt Atheism produces a lot of scientists. 

I am asking about hallucinations, randomness, and false pattern recognition. 

A lot of scientists have no conception of what religion even is.  It is like asking a physician about ballroom dancing.  Religion has nothing to do with science.  There are a lot of religious atheists who know perfectly well what religion is they just do not think God is relevant to their religion. 

I have shared this with you before and you are still not responding to this argument.  Dworkin is an atheist who understands religion perfectly well  http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013/04/04/religion-without-god/

And what is "true" pattern recognition then? 

You are asking about none of those- you are making very simplistic claims.  What does false pattern recognition have to do with the reality of God?  You haven't even mentioned that before.  You are blowing smoke as usual.

Edited by mfbukowski
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50 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I know in LDS thought there is difference between "eternal life" and "living forever", I have known that since I was like 6 years old. 

Please. But anyway immortality would be good enough for me. 

Yes it is up to us. However, how much progress have we humans made without science? What did we accomplish before modern science began?

So has science done more harm or good? What do you think? 

As for climate change, it is climate science deniers that are the problem. 

I think mass killing rates worldwide are decreasing, when was the last time en evil dictator killed millions? 

Oh

my 

Gosh

See there is this country called Syria?  Ever heard about it?  There is this other one called North Korea where people are starving to death?  You really need to get educated.

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33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

See there is this country called Syria?  Ever heard about it?  There is this other one called North Korea where people are starving to death?  You really need to get educated.

V-yzCLUjrUCE0DZn1mmIyXzGTUse33W1wX-SkW7B4okW7K_eaw3S2sWUjmO2KiRVQD_my-v8MeQrysvoSKPqlDNddvX64sDxM6-t-FBM6f3xQ2sw7TDO-PyOZ3gvzoVA3A

"According to the Peace Research Institute Oslo, which produced the graph above, there were between 557,000 and 851,000 battle deaths in 1950, the highest since the end of World War II. Despite some peaks and troughs, there have been fewer battle deaths over the last decade than any other 10-year average since World War II."

Related image

FYI The Syria Civil War started in 2011 

360px-Infant_Mortality_Rate_by_Region_1950-2050.png

 

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

A lot of scientists have no conception of what religion even is.  It is like asking a physician about ballroom dancing.  Religion has nothing to do with science.  

It is a controversial statement because others disagree with you, but your statement has nothing to do with what I just said. 

Please re-read. 

Edited by MormonVideoGame
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1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I know in LDS thought there is difference between "eternal life" and "living forever", I have known that since I was like 6 years old. 

Please. But anyway immortality would be good enough for me. 

I am not sure you do understand that. If all you want is immortality then do not worry. You will get it.

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Yes it is up to us. However, how much progress have we humans made without science? What did we accomplish before modern science began?

So has science done more harm or good? What do you think? 

We accomplished art, love, philosophy, government, architecture, trade, and much more. All before modern science.

It has done much good and some harm.

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I think mass killing rates worldwide are decreasing, when was the last time en evil dictator killed millions? 

You do realize that evil dictators have only killed millions because of access to industrialized murder. A use of science. A perverse one but before "modern science" someone had to work hard to kill thousands.

You live in an idealistic bubble because you were fortunate to be born in a relatively safe nation. Ask someone in a North Korean prison camp about how monstrous dictators are a thing of the past. A large alliance protected a substantial portion of the planet from these kinds of atrocities but do not worry. A "great" man has arisen to tear the world order that has kept the peace to pieces so we may get to share in the fun soon.

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28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh

my 

Gosh

See there is this country called Syria?  Ever heard about it?  There is this other one called North Korea where people are starving to death?  You really need to get educated.

3.5 million deaths in North Korea during the famine of '94-98

...BUT that was what, 19 years ago.  There aren't millions dying NOW...just hundreds of thousands.  

:rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

V-yzCLUjrUCE0DZn1mmIyXzGTUse33W1wX-SkW7B4okW7K_eaw3S2sWUjmO2KiRVQD_my-v8MeQrysvoSKPqlDNddvX64sDxM6-t-FBM6f3xQ2sw7TDO-PyOZ3gvzoVA3A

"According to the Peace Research Institute Oslo, which produced the graph above, there were between 557,000 and 851,000 battle deaths in 1950, the highest since the end of World War II. Despite some peaks and troughs, there have been fewer battle deaths over the last decade than any other 10-year average since World War II."

360px-Infant_Mortality_Rate_by_Region_1950-2050.png

So deaths at the hands of horrible people only count if they are battle deaths and both sides have a gun?

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4 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

V-yzCLUjrUCE0DZn1mmIyXzGTUse33W1wX-SkW7B4okW7K_eaw3S2sWUjmO2KiRVQD_my-v8MeQrysvoSKPqlDNddvX64sDxM6-t-FBM6f3xQ2sw7TDO-PyOZ3gvzoVA3A

"According to the Peace Research Institute Oslo, which produced the graph above, there were between 557,000 and 851,000 battle deaths in 1950, the highest since the end of World War II. Despite some peaks and troughs, there have been fewer battle deaths over the last decade than any other 10-year average since World War II."

360px-Infant_Mortality_Rate_by_Region_1950-2050.png

 

It is a controversial statement because others disagree with you, but your statement has nothing to do with what I just said. 

Please re-read. 

Far worse fates in today's world than being killed in battle...

Edit: Nehor beat me to it

Edited by SteveO
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20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So deaths at the hands of horrible people only count if they are battle deaths and both sides have a gun?

I wrote, "I think mass killing rates worldwide are decreasing " 

I am not sure if there is reliable data out-there for all casualties, but the available data I found shows

1. Battle deaths are decreasing 

2. Infant death rates are decreasing as well  

Yes there are probably more deaths today because there are more people, but I doubt the rates of violent deaths are higher.  Why? because of 1 and 2. 

When was the last time millions of people were killed? and why do you always try to make me look bad? 

By the way, I will appreciate if you decide answer my questions

20 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Far worse fates in today's world than being killed in battle...

Edit: Nehor beat me to it

Yes, like in concentration camps during WW2. Do you have any evidence that far worst fates happen at a higher rate today? 

Edited by MormonVideoGame
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1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

V-yzCLUjrUCE0DZn1mmIyXzGTUse33W1wX-SkW7B4okW7K_eaw3S2sWUjmO2KiRVQD_my-v8MeQrysvoSKPqlDNddvX64sDxM6-t-FBM6f3xQ2sw7TDO-PyOZ3gvzoVA3A

"According to the Peace Research Institute Oslo, which produced the graph above, there were between 557,000 and 851,000 battle deaths in 1950, the highest since the end of World War II. Despite some peaks and troughs, there have been fewer battle deaths over the last decade than any other 10-year average since World War II."

Related image

FYI The Syria Civil War started in 2011 

360px-Infant_Mortality_Rate_by_Region_1950-2050.png

 

It is a controversial statement because others disagree with you, but your statement has nothing to do with what I just said. 

Please re-read. 

2014? Three years old

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4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

What did we accomplish before modern science began?

As if humans did nothing prior to 1600. Time for you to study history, seriously. What modern hubris to discount all that came before modernism. 

By the way, have you checked out that Huston Smith book I recommended yet? Or do you not care enough to actually research what people here are offering you?

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16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

As if humans did nothing prior to 1600. Time for you to study history, seriously. What modern hubris to discount all that came before modernism. 

I am sorry I should have been more specific. How much did humans accomplish with religion before modern science began? Or  how did religion improve our world before modern science began ? Please let me know if you have the answers  

Edited by MormonVideoGame
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31 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I am sorry I should have been more specific. How much did humans accomplish with religion before modern science began? Or  how did religion improve our world before modern science began ? Please let me know if you have the answers  

Are you too lazy to research them yourself...?

ETA: the book I mentioned has some good answers to your questions, if they are really questions and not just points you're trying to make posing as questions.

Edited by MiserereNobis
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30 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

I hate to be a killjoy but is anyone going to discuss the actual topic or has it been derailed beyond recognition?

You're right, sorry. I'll bow out now of the argument with MormonVideoGame.

ETA: it just annoys me when atheists rehash the same old tired arguments without having read/researched the many academic and scholarly sources that point out that spirituality is actually not irrational or unreasonable.

Edited by MiserereNobis
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