Youth Conference Packing list

[bsjkki]

I just received the youth conference packing list. It has this statement.

"1-2 pair pants (capris/shorts must be 2 inches below knee. Girls: no leggings or low rise pants)

2-3 shirts (Not tight enough to be revealing, no inappropriate logos, must be long enough to cover midriff even when arms are overhead, no tank taps or spaghetti straps)"

So does this mean the boys can wear leggings and low rise pants? Are they going to have the girls lift up their shirts to check the rise of their jeans?  I have an overweight teen girl who only wears low rise jeans with really long t-shirts. She is not attending but this list just made me chuckle. Heaven forbid your teen girl has big boobs because someone could feel her t-shirt is too tight. I can just picture all the girls lining up and raising their arms over their head to see if there is any midriff exposure.

Controlling much? Break out those tape measures each day...it's upsurd. 😉

Edited June 2, 2017 by bsjkki

[Jane_Doe]

This being Youth Conference, they're just laying down stricter rules on paper so they don't have to waste time with it later and can actually focus on the important things.

[SteveO]

41 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Controlling much? Break out those tape measures each day...it's upserd. 😉

Overdramatize much?  It is what it is.  You want authoritative and oppressive rule, I have more extreme examples going on elsewhere. 

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

Overdramatize much?  It is what it is.  You want authoritative and oppressive rule, I have more extreme examples going on elsewhere. 

The chuckle and the winky face were context clues...

 

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

This being Youth Conference, they're just laying down stricter rules on paper so they don't have to waste time with it later and can actually focus on the important things.

Yep...I get it...I just think it is still ridiculous but you can disagree...that's fine.

[Jeanne]

54 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I just received the youth conference packing list. It has this statement.

"1-2 pair pants (capris/shorts must be 2 inches below knee. Girls: no leggings or low rise pants)

2-3 shirts (Not tight enough to be revealing, no inappropriate logos, must be long enough to cover midriff even when arms are overhead, no tank taps or spaghetti straps)"

So does this mean the boys can wear leggings and low rise pants? Are they going to have the girls lift up their shirts to check the rise of their jeans?  I have an overweight teen girl who only wears low rise jeans with really long t-shirts. She is not attending but this list just made me chuckle. Heaven forbid your teen girl has big boobs because someone could feel her t-shirt is too tight. I can just picture all the girls lining up and raising their arms over their head to see if there is any midriff exposure.

Controlling much? Break out those tape measures each day...it's upserd. 😉

Oh...I do not miss these days..the double standard and micro managing makes you think that parents/teens would not have some common sense...

[Jane_Doe]

31 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The chuckle and the winky face were context clues...

 

Yep...I get it...I just think it is still ridiculous but you can disagree...that's fine.

Oh, I don't disagree that it's ridiculous.  I just find that understanding why people are ridiculous sometimes helps me not go crazy.

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Oh, I don't disagree that it's ridiculous.  I just find that understanding why people are ridiculous sometimes helps me not go crazy.

I think it's too late for me. 😉

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Oh...I do not miss these days..the double standard and micro managing makes you think that parents/teens would not have some common sense...

Because experience has shown that common sense and some people are only passing acquaintances.

[Jeanne]

14 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Because experience has shown that common sense and some people are only passing acquaintances.

Well..they need the experience...not control over everything.

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well..they need the experience...not control over everything.

My experience has been that rules that seem stupid have had to be put in places because people do stupid things despite what common sense would say.   

 

[Jeanne]

but

Just now, ksfisher said:

My experience has been that rules that seem stupid have had to be put in places because people do stupid things despite what common sense would say.   

 

That is how they learn and understand.  I see what you are saying..but c'mon..pack a bag and go..they know what to take and what not to..this is irritating.  It is the same standards they have for dances, activities..lets give the parents and girls some credit here.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

but

That is how they learn and understand.  I see what you are saying..but c'mon..pack a bag and go..they know what to take and what not to..this is irritating.  It is the same standards they have for dances, activities..lets give the parents and girls some credit here.

Telling a youth to pack a bag and go is a guarantee that something will not be packed.  Packing lists are very helpful.  Why reinvent a wheel that has already been made?  Why not learn from the experience of others? 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Telling a youth to pack a bag and go is a guarantee that something will not be packed.  Packing lists are very helpful.  Why reinvent a wheel that has already been made?  Why not learn from the experience of others? 

Good point. 

[SteveO]

Is it really beyond the pale to imagine something getting packed that is intentionally meant to cause problems and draw attention?  If you think 13 year old girls have enough drama and could do without intentionally adding to the workload--you would be wrong.  Teenagers are the dumbest form of life on the planet, and it isn't wise to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[bsjkki]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Telling a youth to pack a bag and go is a guarantee that something will not be packed.  Packing lists are very helpful.  Why reinvent a wheel that has already been made?  Why not learn from the experience of others? 

I like packing lists...the no low rise jeans was a new addition. I think saying no shorts would be sufficient...it really did leave me SMH. 

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

but

That is how they learn and understand.  I see what you are saying..but c'mon..pack a bag and go..they know what to take and what not to..this is irritating.  It is the same standards they have for dances, activities..lets give the parents and girls some credit here.

It is one thing to do this in small groups where errors can be easily seen and the youth helped fixing them or they can take off and come back easily.  Trips where they are away from home or their usual leaders are significantly different.

My son's scouting group had some kids who had to be very actively supervised.  Even sending home recommended lists resulted in one bringing one packet of ramen for each meal on a week long camping trip.  He was practically passing out from the lack of calories by the time the leaders realized that was all he brought (second day, they had been driven in deep and dropped off).  Everyone contributed some to help sustain the kid so they would be able to continue with the major hike they had been working towards for the whole year.  If it had been a smaller group with less resources overall to share, they wouldn't have been able to do it.  As it was the other kids were quite angry with him as it caused all of them to be on too short rations to be comfortable (it was backpacking, you took what you needed and no more).

There are enough kids out there that have learning struggles or parents who don't pay close enough attention that shouldn't be made to suffer either from not being able to participate because they didn't pay enough attention to the guidelines or to be made to feel different because they get rules they have to follow while everyone else is trusted to 'rule' themselves to justify detailed rules in these kinds of cases, imo.

There are also new converts or investigators that go to these things that aren't yet confident they have the standards down pat.  It would be a shame if they either decided to stay home rather than risk it or ended up embarrassed because of misunderstanding.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I just received the youth conference packing list. It has this statement.

"1-2 pair pants (capris/shorts must be 2 inches below knee. Girls: no leggings or low rise pants)

2-3 shirts (Not tight enough to be revealing, no inappropriate logos, must be long enough to cover midriff even when arms are overhead, no tank taps or spaghetti straps)"

So does this mean the boys can wear leggings and low rise pants? Are they going to have the girls lift up their shirts to check the rise of their jeans?  I have an overweight teen girl who only wears low rise jeans with really long t-shirts. She is not attending but this list just made me chuckle. Heaven forbid your teen girl has big boobs because someone could feel her t-shirt is too tight. I can just picture all the girls lining up and raising their arms over their head to see if there is any midriff exposure.

Controlling much? Break out those tape measures each day...it's upserd. 😉

I don't think it's absurd.  The church has a dress code that they promote and sometimes make mandatory.  It shouldn't surprise anyone.  I agree though that sometimes people forget that different body types react differently in different clothing.  I'm big busted and you are right in that it is impossible to find shirts that are not tight.  The same can be true for heavier people as well.  Long ago i decided that this was the body God gave me and I wasn't going to wear a big sack so my shirts were going to be tighter than i would choose given the option. 

I'm in the YW's and we don't push dress standards at all except at things like youth conference.  We just hiked up to the top of Ensign peak on Wednesday and two girls wore tank tops, one wore a tight tank top and leggings, and one had on fairly short shorts.  Oh well.  They were where they needed to be and it was fine.  Would i let them go to youth conference dressed like that though?  Probably not.  

I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching our kids that sometimes life requires dress and grooming standards by sometimes requiring specific dress and grooming standards ourselves, or that those dress and grooming standards will often be different for men and women (for two very obvious reasons.  1-Men's clothing is typically not inherently revealing and women's clothing is and 2-boobs).  It does need to be done with love, kindness and mercy though.

[california boy]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is one thing to do this in small groups where errors can be easily seen and the youth helped fixing them or they can take off and come back easily.  Trips where they are away from home or their usual leaders are significantly different.

My son's scouting group had some kids who had to be very actively supervised.  Even sending home recommended lists resulted in one bringing one packet of ramen for each meal on a week long camping trip.  He was practically passing out from the lack of calories by the time the leaders realized that was all he brought (second day, they had been driven in deep and dropped off).  Everyone contributed some to help sustain the kid so they would be able to continue with the major hike they had been working towards for the whole year.  If it had been a smaller group with less resources overall to share, they wouldn't have been able to do it.  As it was the other kids were quite angry with him as it caused all of them to be on too short rations to be comfortable (it was backpacking, you took what you needed and no more).

There are enough kids out there that have learning struggles or parents who don't pay close enough attention that shouldn't be made to suffer either from not being able to participate because they didn't pay enough attention to the guidelines or to be made to feel different because they get rules they have to follow while everyone else is trusted to 'rule' themselves to justify detailed rules in these kinds of cases, imo.

There are also new converts or investigators that go to these things that aren't yet confident they have the standards down pat.  It would be a shame if they either decided to stay home rather than risk it or ended up embarrassed because of misunderstanding.

You bring up some good points.  But it still feels like the church is micromanaging so much behavior.  I always felt when raising my kids that if I let them make all the decisions they could on their own while they were living at home with our guidance, then when there was a problem or issue, it was while they were still under our watch or the watch of church leaders.  If the first time they are making choices about how to dress or behave is when they are off on their own, no one is there to point out how those choices might not be the best. Does that make sense?  It seems like these kinds of valuable lessons get taken away by such micromanagement.  

Like the incident you brought up, the kid probably learned a valuable lesson he will remember for life.  And perhaps the other kids learned how to share and make due with less.  The also saw how poor judgement can become a serious issue in certain situations.  I seriously doubt anyone was in danger of starving to death. 

A more general guideline of reminding both sexes to dress modestly seems more appropriate in trying to teach good values that the kids actually embrace rather than be dictated to.  It is just a different approach on how to guide youth while growing up.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Is it really beyond the pale to imagine something getting packed that is intentionally meant to cause problems and draw attention?  If you think 13 year old girls have enough drama and could do without intentionally adding to the workload--you would be wrong.  Teenagers are the dumbest form of life on the planet, and it isn't wise to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Very true, that age group is goofy sometimes.  I just got back from sixth grade graduation and there was a girl graduating who was wearing six inch stiletto strappy heels.  Not only did she look ridiculous (which is not that unusual for that age group and just one of the fun parts of growing up) but she could barely walk in them.  Plus, there's no way for a girl to wear shoes like that and not look sexualized.  Those types of heels are specifically meant/created to make women look sexy and you can't put them on a girl and not create a sexualized image.

She would have benefited from some oversight.

Edited June 2, 2017 by bluebell

[bsjkki]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is one thing to do this in small groups where errors can be easily seen and the youth helped fixing them or they can take off and come back easily.  Trips where they are away from home or their usual leaders are significantly different.

My son's scouting group had some kids who had to be very actively supervised.  Even sending home recommended lists resulted in one bringing one packet of ramen for each meal on a week long camping trip.  He was practically passing out from the lack of calories by the time the leaders realized that was all he brought (second day, they had been driven in deep and dropped off).  Everyone contributed some to help sustain the kid so they would be able to continue with the major hike they had been working towards for the whole year.  If it had been a smaller group with less resources overall to share, they wouldn't have been able to do it.  As it was the other kids were quite angry with him as it caused all of them to be on too short rations to be comfortable (it was backpacking, you took what you needed and no more).

There are enough kids out there that have learning struggles or parents who don't pay close enough attention that shouldn't be made to suffer either from not being able to participate because they didn't pay enough attention to the guidelines or to be made to feel different because they get rules they have to follow while everyone else is trusted to 'rule' themselves to justify detailed rules in these kinds of cases, imo.

There are also new converts or investigators that go to these things that aren't yet confident they have the standards down pat.  It would be a shame if they either decided to stay home rather than risk it or ended up embarrassed because of misunderstanding.

I like that for backpacking trips, my stake has pack checks before they leave. There is nothing wrong with packing lists...it's just some of the restrictions are made-up and not part of Mormon culture for new members to learn. Low rise jeans are not against Mormon dress standards...nor are shorts or leggings. If the girls can't wear shorts on backpacking trips...don't allow the boys to do it either. It's just the silly stuff that gets me. T-shirts over swim suits etc...it's a long history of ridiculous guidelines. There are appropriate guidelines that help the kids have the right clothes for activities and events...no problem with that.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I like that for backpacking trips, my stake has pack checks before they leave. There is nothing wrong with packing lists...it's just some of the restrictions are made-up and not part of Mormon culture for new members to learn. Low rise jeans are not against Mormon dress standards...nor are shorts or leggings. If the girls can't wear shorts on backpacking trips...don't allow the boys to do it either. It's just the silly stuff that gets me. T-shirts over swim suits etc...it's a long history of ridiculous guidelines. There are appropriate guidelines that help the kids have the right clothes for activities and events...no problem with that.

I agree that dress standards can get ridiculous at times.  The only differences between male and female should be based on comfort and safety, not modesty.  If the intent is to teach Temple standards, the garments cover the same amount of skin....well, less for women actually since it is capped sleeves, not short.  Swimsuits are the only problematic clothing imo as it is typical for guys to be topless while girls have to have some coverage, but if T shirts are required, that could easily be for both...and probably a good idea for skin cancer.  

If there are going to be dress guidelines though, I think they should be sent out in detailed lists to everyone to avoid confusion and error.  To me that is a separate issue than what the guidelines are.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Is it really beyond the pale to imagine something getting packed that is intentionally meant to cause problems and draw attention?  If you think 13 year old girls have enough drama and could do without intentionally adding to the workload--you would be wrong.  Teenagers are the dumbest form of life on the planet, and it isn't wise to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I had to smile at this...been a long time since I had a teenager...ah...a part of my life that I don't want a do over.

 

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think it's absurd.  The church has a dress code that they promote and sometimes make mandatory.  It shouldn't surprise anyone.  I agree though that sometimes people forget that different body types react differently in different clothing.  I'm big busted and you are right in that it is impossible to find shirts that are not tight.  The same can be true for heavier people as well.  Long ago i decided that this was the body God gave me and I wasn't going to wear a big sack so my shirts were going to be tighter than i would choose given the option. 

I'm in the YW's and we don't push dress standards at all except at things like youth conference.  We just hiked up to the top of Ensign peak on Wednesday and two girls wore tank tops, one wore a tight tank top and leggings, and one had on fairly short shorts.  Oh well.  They were where they needed to be and it was fine.  Would i let them go to youth conference dressed like that though?  Probably not.  

I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching our kids that sometimes life requires dress and grooming standards by sometimes requiring specific dress and grooming standards ourselves, or that those dress and grooming standards will often be different for men and women (for two very obvious reasons.  1-Men's clothing is typically not inherently revealing and women's clothing is and 2-boobs).  It does need to be done with love, kindness and mercy though.

I agree to a point. I work where I have to be relatively uniformed..and I hate it..so many things to worry about at work..like orders..shipments..and they want to worry about the color of my shirt??  What happens to a young girl if she brings a pair of shorts that are to the knee...is the whole world going to just fall apart?? 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I agree to a point. I work where I have to be relatively uniformed..and I hate it..so many things to worry about at work..like orders..shipments..and they want to worry about the color of my shirt??  What happens to a young girl if she brings a pair of shorts that are to the knee...is the whole world going to just fall apart?? 

No, just like the whole world won't fall apart if you wear the wrong color shirt to work.  As far as i can tell, people don't implement dress codes or standards because they think if they don't the world will fall a part.   

[Jeanne]

Just now, bluebell said:

No, just like the whole world won't fall apart if you wear the wrong color shirt to work.  As far as i can tell, people don't implement dress codes or standards because they think if they don't the world will fall a part.   

Then why???  It is nonsensical...a girl with knees is supposed to have knees and what color shirt I have on at work has nothing to do with quality of my work. 

[Calm]

"Like the incident you brought up, the kid probably learned a valuable lesson he will remember for life.  And perhaps the other kids learned how to share and make due with less.  The also saw how poor judgement can become a serious issue in certain situations.  I seriously doubt anyone was in danger of starving to death."

Mistakes and accidents are more likely to occur when hungry, if only because of distraction, but sometimes when not getting enough nutrition to function properly.

Knowing the kid and what happened later, he didn't learn much save he would be covered by his friends, just as he already knew.  (loved him, great kid, wonderful family, hard worker, just easily distracted and not a great planner, he seemed to get a handle on self directing his life on his mission).  His leaders learned a valuable lesson though, always check before leaving the parking lot, don't assume the pack is identical to the one from last pack meeting.

I know of a number of hikes and camps that have had to be cut short due to running out of food or not having the proper clothing.

Youth conferences are different in the safety issue, my opinion and the reason I posted this experience is that different rules need to apply to different situations.