Youth Conference Packing list

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What gave it away, the chaps or having to have them to be worn with pants?  I think some are taking the subject just a bit too seriously if they read that without a laugh.

Well he totally suckered me in on that one.  lol.  The way some leaders treat kids, I totally believed it.  

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

The humiliation that comes from having to wear a big tshirt.

I am hearing what you are saying.  And I am well aware of what part the youth play in planning these activities.  But I don't quite see the tragedy of wearing a tee shirt if someone shows up in immodest clothing, especially if it is announced in advance that would be the consequences of  inappropriate attire.  But whatever.  If church leaders think it is important to micromanage everything a kid can and can not wear, then who am I to put in my two cents.  I just don't remember things being that big of problem in my ward.  Kids knew they had to dress modestly and they did. We never gave them measurements and the kind of guidelines that seems to be required now.

My comment is also a bit more broad than just how to dress for youth activities.  I think the same goes about dictating how many ear piercings are allowed and whether a person can have a tattoo.  I honestly don't see how any of this has much to do in helping them become more Christ like or drawing closer to God.  The church certainly has a different definition of what it feels it's role is in bringing people to Christ than I do.  

[Storm Rider]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

Tell us the worst thing you have ever seen at a  youth conference that ai big tee shirt could not have fixed.

Cal, I agree that a big t-shirt can cover almost any problem. However, to be put in the position of embarrassing a young person for poor choice in front of their peers does not seem like an ideal solution.  The objective is teaching individuals to make good choices.  At a youth conference you cannot easily send them home for a more appropriate set of clothes (maybe in Utah, but in the south our kids often go to a regional university a few hours from home).  

It is unfortunate that some individuals prove repeatedly they cannot govern themselves and need assistance.  As a result we get some annoying letters every now and then.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Well he totally suckered me in on that one.  lol.  The way some leaders treat kids, I totally believed it.  

It was the description of the event that I got first, the billowing parachute pants....then chaps of genuine leather are rather expensive from what I hear (we have a man who has been doing rodeos since before I taught him as a 14 year old, he is now a professional), no way would they be standard attire enough to merit their own rule.  However, I just don't think even the controlling type of leader would think it was necessary to mention pants had to be worn with chaps.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

As a high councilman over the youth programs, part of my job was to be the dress code enforcer at activities. Shocking I know,  but some kids actually gamed the system. For example, feigning ignorance of the stated standards, crying because they would have to go home to change, getting in and then changing clothes, etc.

Some did not govern themselves after having been taught the principles. It's human nature. I don't see using that quote as applicable in any and all circumstances where certain behaviors and standards are required.

 

And by gaming the system, crying etc., they can often taint the enjoyment of the activity of their more congenial friends as well as make being chaperones or whatever they call them these days the worst part of a calling.  Precise guidelines also take off some of the pressure of the parent volunteers wondering where they need to draw the line, plus they may prevent the overzealous type from imposing too strict standards.

Ward stuff where adults know kids and kids know the adults...lots of personal responsibility; when you get into the unknown where anxious, awkward kids may be traumatized by clueless adults or anxious, awkward adults may be traumatized by clueless kids, details are desirable whether standards are strict or relaxed or somewhere in between.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was the description of the event that I got first, chaps of genuine leather are rather expensive from what I hear (we have a man who has been doing rodeos since before I taught him as a 14 year old, he is now a professional), no way would they be standard attire enough to merit their own rule.  However, I just don't think even the controlling type of leader would think it was necessary to mention pants had to be worn with chaps.

Well, there are those naughty boy dancers who wear chaps with no pants and bow ties with no shirts. That might raise some eyebrows among the chatty-class RS sisters and over-zealous high councilmen.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, I agree that a big t-shirt can cover almost any problem. However, to be put in the position of embarrassing a young person for poor choice in front of their peers does not seem like an ideal solution.  The objective is teaching individuals to make good choices.  At a youth conference you cannot easily send them home for a more appropriate set of clothes (maybe in Utah, but in the south our kids often go to a regional university a few hours from home).  

It is unfortunate that some individuals prove repeatedly they cannot govern themselves and need assistance.  As a result we get some annoying letters every now and then.  

In my situation, I would talk to the "offender" in a room near the entrance, not in front of their peers. For the "no one told me about the standards" routine, I kept what I called the "Highcouncilman's Guest Book" in which the kids signed their names after the first warning. 

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, california boy said:

If church leaders think it is important to micromanage everything a kid can and can not wear, then who am I to put in my two cents.  I just don't remember things being that big of problem in my ward. 

Again, perhaps others on the thread are speaking to every occasion.  I am not.

Wards probably quite frequently do not have problems.  I would be shocked if there were stakes that did not have at least a few kids that needed the extra help.  Will the kids who can handle the responsibility be harmed by getting detailed instructions once a month for a stake or regional activity while having plenty of opportunity for personal responsibility in determining what is and isn't appropriate in the vast majority of their activities?

------

My experience was the boys in the pack totally understood after a few episodes why the extra precautions were taken by the leaders when the 'needing the extra love and attention' kids were coming.  My son would at times joke about and roll his eyes, but the only time he was resentful was when the boy from the abusive home (they were 16 or 17 by then) would make disdainful remarks about leaders and the Church while refusing to acknowledge they had to limit the activity because of his inability to focus.  Generally from what I could tell, the boys were fond and protective of their somewhat different friends.  Their background was known and most recognized how far the kids who were able to progress had come over the years.  If there was any bullying or teasing, I never heard reports of it from boys or adults though I suspect there would have been some as they were after all kids.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In my situation, I would talk to the "offender" in a room near the entrance, not in front of their peers. For the "no one told me about the standards" routine, I kept what I called the "Highcouncilman's Guest Book" in which the kids signed their names after the first warning. 

Good ideas.

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

IF, that is a big "if", parents had common sense very, very few groups would have to instruct parents and children what is required at events.  Some of the stuff I have seen children wear astounds; it is as if they did not have parents at all.

In many ways I agree.  But I would think that they would dress like their friends at a conference. I believe we underestimate their common sense especially at church goings.  Surely they would not want to be embarrassed.  I know what you are saying..but older teens need to learn from their own choices.  They are going on missions within the year are two..they need to find their values in their own way. I am not talking about real wild things here..but shorts below the knee and stuff like that..

[Storm Rider]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Again, perhaps others on the thread are speaking to every occasion.  I am not.

Wards probably quite frequently do not have problems.  I would be shocked if there were stakes that did not have at least a few kids that needed the extra help.  Will the kids who can handle the responsibility be harmed by getting detailed instructions once a month for a stake or regional activity while having plenty of opportunity for personal responsibility in determining what is and isn't appropriate in the vast majority of their activities?

------

My experience was the boys in the pack totally understood after a few episodes why the extra precautions were taken by the leaders when the 'needing the extra love and attention' kids were coming.  My son would at times joke about and roll his eyes, but the only time he was resentful was when the boy from the abusive home (they were 16 or 17 by then) would make disdainful remarks about leaders and the Church while refusing to acknowledge they had to limit the activity because of his inability to focus.  Generally from what I could tell, the boys were fond and protective of their somewhat different friends.  Their background was known and most recognized how far the kids who were able to progress had come over the years.  If there was any bullying or teasing, I never heard reports of it from boys or adults though I suspect there would have been some as they were after all kids.

I agree with you and Cal, for the vast majority of teenagers there are absolutely no problems knowing what is and what is not appropriate attire.  It is not just for a youth conference, but their daily life.  They tend to live their beliefs and do a good job.  I assume that it the consistent teaching of correct principles that aid individuals to make good choices for themselves.  

Yet, when looking at the world it is easily apparent that children, LDS or not, are consistently challenged to dress immodestly.  

[bsjkki]

...and I got a letter from the stake rescinding the old packing list. I must have not been alone in my response. No more mention of low rise jeans and shorts to the knee are now acceptable. They aligned the dress code to follow EFY standards.

[MiserereNobis]

On 6/3/2017 at 11:49 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Some did not govern themselves after having been taught the principles. It's human nature. I don't see using that quote as applicable in any and all circumstances where certain behaviors and standards are required.

I've seen that quote from Joseph Smith used many times on this board. What do you (or anyone else here) think it means? Where is the line drawn of governing themselves?

Edited June 7, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[Bernard Gui]

MN.....Here are some things from a Church instruction manual. What I am referring to is improperly using the quote to question or criticize leaders when they enforce standards such as this dress code issue.

Quote

John Taylor, the third President of the Church, reported: “Some years ago, in Nauvoo, a gentleman in my hearing, a member of the Legislature, asked Joseph Smith how it was that he was enabled to govern so many people, and to preserve such perfect order; remarking at the same time that it was impossible for them to do it anywhere else. Mr. Smith remarked that it was very easy to do that. ‘How?’ responded the gentleman; ‘to us it is very difficult.’ Mr. Smith replied, ‘I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.’”

Brigham Young, the second President of the Church, reported:“The question was asked a great many times of Joseph Smith, by gentlemen who came to see him and his people, ‘How is it that you can control your people so easily? It appears that they do nothing but what you say; how is it that you can govern them so easily?’ Said he, ‘I do not govern them at all. The Lord has revealed certain principles from the heavens by which we are to live in these latter days. The time is drawing near when the Lord is going to gather out His people from the wicked, and He is going to cut short His work in righteousness, and the principles which He has revealed I have taught to the people and they are trying to live according to them, and they control themselves.’”

In response to an accusation that he was seeking power, Joseph Smith said: “In relation to the power over the minds of mankind which I hold, I would say, It is in consequence of the power of truth in the doctrines which I have been an instrument in the hands of God of presenting unto them, and not because of any compulsion on my part. … I ask, Did I ever exercise any compulsion over any man? Did I not give him the liberty of disbelieving any doctrine I have preached, if he saw fit? Why do not my enemies strike a blow at the doctrine? They cannot do it: it is truth, and I defy all men to upset it.”

“A brother who works in the St. Louis Gazette office … wanted to know by what principle I got so much power. … I told him I obtained power on the principles of truth and virtue, which would last when I was dead and gone.”

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui