Why is believing in God, and having Faith...so painful to those who have none?

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

But why mock and belittle the believers? 

Why do people mock and belittle those who no longer believe?

I think it's much for the same reasons. Both sides do this here (mock and belittle).

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I think there is probably a lot behind the anger expressed on both sides that we don't and can't see. Believers get angry as well as non-believers when it comes to the hot button issues like religion. There are a lot of pressures from family and spouses to go one way or another. Belief is sometimes a prerequisite to staying married and vice versa. So, I guess I'm not surprised when people seemingly get offended by another's beliefs or non-beliefs. 

This! I just listened to a story of someone who resigned and his wife divorced him over it. He had been a faithful member for over 40 years and all that gets him is a divorce!

He asked his now ex-wife. What if you and I were Catholic and some LDS missionaries stopped by and taught you the discussions and you left the Catholic church for the LDS church. Would I have needed to divorce you over it? He said it went right over her head. 

Also, this person mentioned how sometimes you'll hear of someone that left their former religion to join the LDS church and how their family disowned them, and then LDS people are shocked about it. But that is what is happening when LDS leave, I'd laugh if I wasn't already feeling like crying for this poor man. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Why do people mock and belittle those who no longer believe?

I think it's much for the same reasons. Both sides do this here (mock and belittle).

I agree both sides tend to do it, but it seems the greater percentage are the unbelievers who are on the attack and the believers are just trying to defend and explain. Depends on which side you are on I guess as how one sees it. 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This! I just listened to a story of someone who resigned and his wife divorced him over it. He had been a faithful member for over 40 years and all that gets him is a divorce!

He asked his now ex-wife. What if you and I were Catholic and some LDS missionaries stopped by and taught you the discussions and you left the Catholic church for the LDS church. Would I have needed to divorce you over it? He said it went right over her head. 

Also, this person mentioned how sometimes you'll hear of someone that left their former religion to join the LDS church and how their family disowned them, and then LDS people are shocked about it. But that is what is happening when LDS leave, I'd laugh if I wasn't already feeling like crying for this poor man. 

Listening to that right now.  Makes me wonder if the family or the organization is the most important.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel condescended upon because I said I will try to help?

 

Well if I didn't I do now. I understand that people who post threads feel like some are being dismissive, and seem to show no sympathy. Which is why I started the thread, why come to websites denouncing God, or the Church (any Church) and then get angry and hurt when others make a defense? I don't feel put upon, I am just surprised by the apparent pain they feel when others defend their Faith, and if they feel injured, why continue? 

But, if you feel the need to continue with you passive-aggressive posts, have at it. 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Why do people mock and belittle those who no longer believe?

I think it's much for the same reasons. Both sides do this here (mock and belittle).

Correct, this is why I mentioned it, but not all, not even a majority. 

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I agree both sides tend to do it, but it seems the greater percentage are the unbelievers who are on the attack and the believers are just trying to defend and explain. Depends on which side you are on I guess as how one sees it. 

I admit I haven't been attacked as of yet, because most people don't know of my struggle with belief. But have seen it by members on online boards when their identity is hidden. And I've read stories about people that turn mean when their family members turn to unbelief. So I'm pretty sure it happens on both sides equally. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This! I just listened to a story of someone who resigned and his wife divorced him over it. He had been a faithful member for over 40 years and all that gets him is a divorce!

He asked his now ex-wife. What if you and I were Catholic and some LDS missionaries stopped by and taught you the discussions and you left the Catholic church for the LDS church. Would I have needed to divorce you over it? He said it went right over her head. 

Also, this person mentioned how sometimes you'll hear of someone that left their former religion to join the LDS church and how their family disowned them, and then LDS people are shocked about it. But that is what is happening when LDS leave, I'd laugh if I wasn't already feeling like crying for this poor man. 

No marriage just ends over one issue, it just that larger issues make people look more closely at all of the other issues. Also, the story you speak of is just one side of the argument, there is never one side to any issue in any marriage. 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

No marriage just ends over one issue, it just that larger issues make people look more closely at all of the other issues. Also, the story you speak of is just one side of the argument, there is never one side to any issue in any marriage. 

I don't think you've been on the boards I have, it's a very real problem. The guy I was talking about even wrote Pres. Uchtdorf and plead with him and the other leaders to stress about not leaving an unbeliever. This guy's marriage was fully intact before he decided to finally resign. His wife and a friend tried to get him answers to his questions, they even visited a leader who is a Seventy about it. So his wife wasn't saying anything about divorce before, in fact she was trying to get him help. If she wanted a divorce before would she have done that?

ETA: http://www.mormonstories.org/scott-duke-golden/

Edited May 4, 2017 by Tacenda

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Well if I didn't I do now. I understand that people who post threads feel like some are being dismissive, and seem to show no sympathy. Which is why I started the thread, why come to websites denouncing God, or the Church (any Church) and then get angry and hurt when others make a defense? I don't feel put upon, I am just surprised by the apparent pain they feel when others defend their Faith, and if they feel injured, why continue? 

But, if you feel the need to continue with you passive-aggressive posts, have at it. 

With respect, Papa, if you cannot accept someone as posting in good faith, maybe you really are part of the problem. 

I tried to clarify the perceived misconceptions in your OP, then to clear up your misunderstanding of my comment, etc..., and you seem eager to find fault.  It seems to me that you are fulfilling the process of your OP yourself.

We should all be willing to check ourselves.

[Darren10]

11 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

That sounds kind of like the Hunger Games.

But, unless Katniss Everdeen is with them, it is doomed to fail.

[HappyJackWagon]

30 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I agree both sides tend to do it, but it seems the greater percentage are the unbelievers who are on the attack and the believers are just trying to defend and explain. Depends on which side you are on I guess as how one sees it. 

I disagree that unbelievers do it more often. I think both sides do it. Sometimes there is a cynicism and snarkiness that can come out from people who no longer believe and that can come across as harsh to someone who isn't comfortable with cynicism and snarkiness. Yet the people who believe often come across as condescending, judgmental, and passive aggressive. They way they react badly towards others may not always look the same but it is interpreted in a similar way by those it's aimed at.

I think it's hard for people to see it in themselves because they understand the intentions and motivations whereas they can only guess about the other person's motivations.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

With respect, Papa, if you cannot accept someone as posting in good faith, maybe you really are part of the problem. 

I tried to clarify the perceived misconceptions in your OP, then to clear up your misunderstanding of my comment, etc..., and you seem eager to find fault.  It seems to me that you are fulfilling the process of your OP yourself.

We should all be willing to check ourselves.

I am willing to look at myself, ourselves, and others. It is why posed the questions I did, and why I pointed out that it is a two way street, or that the river flows both ways. I am just wondering why that part is being missed, and you are attempting to tell what I have already said. Either way, the thread needs to move forward and not a debate between posters. 

[HappyJackWagon]

20 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Well if I didn't I do now. I understand that people who post threads feel like some are being dismissive, and seem to show no sympathy. Which is why I started the thread, why come to websites denouncing God, or the Church (any Church) and then get angry and hurt when others make a defense? I don't feel put upon, I am just surprised by the apparent pain they feel when others defend their Faith, and if they feel injured, why continue? 

But, if you feel the need to continue with you passive-aggressive posts, have at it. 

Often times, and on this board we could find many examples, defenders of the faith are offensive in the way they defend their faith. It's as if the ends (promoting the faith) justifies the means (rudeness, accusation, dismissiveness etc). Both sides do it, but when a person is claiming superiority of their spiritual understanding and discipleship, it makes them look like even bigger hypocrites than the average poster. Think of all the times the "faithful" call the less/non-believers names. Of course it's hurtful but should I let a rude poster on MDDB or at church push me away from the ways I want to engage the church? No. Why would I?

...and you're talking about someone else's passive-aggressive post? Interesting.

 

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I am willing to look at myself, ourselves, and others. It is why posed the questions I did...

I know you meant well, (I sincerely do from your past posts here), but in all honesty, even the way you phrased your question in the title makes assumptions that could feel judgmental.

Why assume those who question or who leave the church don't believe in God or have faith anymore ("have none")?  Many leave who continue to believe in God and continue to have faith and strive to live Christ's teachings (and are very happy).

Edited May 4, 2017 by JulieM

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't think you've been on the boards I have, it's a very real problem. The guy I was talking about even wrote Pres. Uchtdorf and plead with him and the other leaders to stress about not leaving an unbeliever. This guy's marriage was fully intact before he decided to finally resign. His wife and a friend tried to get him answers to his questions, they even visited a leader who is a Seventy about it. So his wife wasn't saying anything about divorce before, in fact she was trying to get him help. If she wanted a divorce before would she have done that?

ETA: http://www.mormonstories.org/scott-duke-golden/

I understand your concerns, but you are hearing one side of the story. I have been married for going on 42 years, served in Bishopric, High Priest Group Leader, and many other callings. In marriage there always two sides to every marriage and story, and every divorce. Also, the Church does not advise members to end marriages over matters of belief. So if the wife did this, she did it against the covenant of marriage and against her Bishop's counsel; if she sought it? As to website, I have been a part of most for a very long time, and always as Papa, as to not deceive anyone...well until I added my name to Papa recently. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

For a lot of people, religion has failed them.  So religion is no longer an option that they feel they can trust in. They look for other things to believe in.  Sometimes science and secular thought seems more trustworthy and believable.  I think a lot of people are compelled to find truth.  People find it in different places.  

For example, you just posted a quote from Abraham.  For that quote to be true, one has to first believe that those are the actual words of Abraham as was the claim.  Science (that other source of truth) says that it is not.  So for the person that is looking for truth through science, those words don't represent any truth at all.  Does that make sense?

No, because that is false.  I show that merely by the measure of science alone, one can believe that those are the very words of Abraham:  See my “A Brief Assessment of the LDS Book of Abraham,”  version 8 online August 18, 2014, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/118810727/A-Brief-Assessment-of-the-LDS-Book-of-Abraham .

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Often times, and on this board we could find many examples, defenders of the faith are offensive in the way they defend their faith. It's as if the ends (promoting the faith) justifies the means (rudeness, accusation, dismissiveness etc). Both sides do it, but when a person is claiming superiority of their spiritual understanding and discipleship, it makes them look like even bigger hypocrites than the average poster. Think of all the times the "faithful" call the less/non-believers names. Of course it's hurtful but should I let a rude poster on MDDB or at church push me away from the ways I want to engage the church? No. Why would I?

...and you're talking about someone else's passive-aggressive post? Interesting.

 

Again, I pointed out that both side do it in my original post, yet you (now) and others keep wanting to point it out. And yes, I was pointing out his "passive-aggressive" behavior. It is called using absurdity, by be absurd. Just a look at the second paragraph toward the end (unedited) you will see that I pointed out that all do it, before you feel the need to point it out again. The point I am making is why, why, why, do others open themselves up to pain, by opening discussions as to why do we believe in God, why are we still members, when such questions leave them hurting? 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Not just Shangri La, though, but also meaningful moral grounding and an enduring legacy of good to leave on the planet when they leave.

I admire many people in the sciences, who seem to me to be completely irreligious.  Doesn't matter to me at all.  Dr Neil DeGrasseTyson, for example, is a very charming commentator on modern science who seems to have just that moral grounding you speak of, in addition to wanting to leave a legacy of good.  Too bad that all those who put their trust solely in science and logic don't have a similarly kjnd and genial attitude.

[Robert F. Smith]

Why is believing in God, and having Faith...so painful to those who have none?

 

That is what the OP asked, and it may be that the pain is caused simply by the difficulty of change, of wrenching one's mind around to a new set of assumptions or core beliefs.  It happens to college students all the time as they diligently work on their undergraduate and graduate degrees.  It happens to people who get married, and then have children, finally realizing that there are aspects of marriage which they had not contemplated at all, some of them bailing as soon as possible.

Is it more demanding to be faithful or unfaithful?  Is belief more difficult than unbelief?  So hard to say, but life is tough in any case.  No?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I know you meant well, (I sincerely do from your past posts here), but in all honesty, even the way you phrased your question in the title makes assumptions that could feel judgmental.

Why assume those who question or who leave the church don't believe in God or have faith anymore ("have none")?  Many leave who continue to believe in God and continue to have faith and strive to live Christ's teachings (and are very happy).

I pointed out that my thread, it was based on my experience here and on other websites, many who leave the Church still have faith and others have joined other Faiths...I thought I pointed this out? But many who leave are angry and hurt, and the same for those who no longer believe in any God. We just had a thread where a poster wished Jesus had left footprints as did prehistoric animals. I addressed all of this in the OP, it is only the pain and anger of some of my friends who were once members of this site that concern me, and why the remaining open themselves to be hurt, when they cannot convince others to believe as they do, or not believe at all. I never seek to be hurtful, and I am not worthy to judge. I apologize if that is how it read. 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Why is believing in God, and having Faith...so painful to those who have none?

 

That is what the OP asked, and it may be that the pain is caused simply by the difficulty of change, of wrenching one's mind around to a new set of assumptions or core beliefs.  It happens to college students all the time as they diligently work on their undergraduate and graduate degrees.  It happens to people who get married, and then have children, finally realizing that there are aspects of marriage which they had not contemplated at all, some of them bailing as soon as possible.

Is it more demanding to be faithful or unfaithful?  Is belief more difficult than unbelief?  So hard to say, but life is tough in any case.  No?

Well said...

[Darren10]

As far as how to approach a "faithless" or "faithful" person is concerned, I think love and charitable service is hugely beneficial. As for the faithful, I think it virtuous to desire and pray for the conversion or "reconversion" of the "faithless" but whatever the outcome it should not change the faithful's desire to love and charitably serve the "other side".

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This! I just listened to a story of someone who resigned and his wife divorced him over it. He had been a faithful member for over 40 years and all that gets him is a divorce!

He asked his now ex-wife. What if you and I were Catholic and some LDS missionaries stopped by and taught you the discussions and you left the Catholic church for the LDS church. Would I have needed to divorce you over it? He said it went right over her head. 

Also, this person mentioned how sometimes you'll hear of someone that left their former religion to join the LDS church and how their family disowned them, and then LDS people are shocked about it. But that is what is happening when LDS leave, I'd laugh if I wasn't already feeling like crying for this poor man. 

Until you hear the wife's side of the story, you might be generous enough to give her as much benefit of the doubt as him, both being total strangers to you, and consider there might be more to it than just the one issue,

Maybe it "went right over her head" because that wasn't the reason she divorced him.

[Tsuzuki]

8 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I was not aware this thread addressed any politics, and I would hope you bring none to it. 

I never said this thread did.