thesometimesaint Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Funny thing is..... not a single one of them can show anything to us skeptics. (that includes Jesus, he said; "you could move mountains"...... That and some high explosives I sure can. Edited May 4, 2017 by thesometimesaint
Atheist Mormon Posted May 4, 2017 Author Posted May 4, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 11:04 AM, JLHPROF said: But then God's purposes would be defeated because you would never have to operate out of faith. And without faith you cannot return to God. On 5/3/2017 at 11:04 AM, JLHPROF said: But then God's purposes would be defeated because you would never have to operate out of faith. And without faith you cannot return to God. I see this convenient rule made by you or a Prophet, Scripture..... just to make sure to keep believers happy.
JLHPROF Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: I see this convenient rule made by you or a Prophet, Scripture..... just to make sure to keep believers happy. I'm sure you do. Skepticism would lead to that conclusion. If God actually does require faith first before providing any evidence, how exactly would you find evidence to prove that requirement? Kind of a catch 22. But if that's how it is, then complaining about the catch 22 serves no purpose. Can't change reality. 3
Teancum Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 9:51 AM, JAHS said: Religion is a matter of faith; not scientific evidence. If it was it would be a science and not a religion. You just have to choose to believe and go from there. It' a different kind of evidence you see as you enjoy the blessings one receives in your life by choosing to believe. Why do you think religion in a matter of faith? Why should it be? Who says it should be? What does religion have to be faith based often without of evidence and even in spite of evidence. Why do you think faith seems to be one of the major prime directives og religion? What other things in your life that have such import would you argue are faith based and thus should be taken as such? 1
Teancum Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 9:53 AM, RevTestament said: There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than most other historical figures you probably believe in - like Buddha. Numerous NT writers wrote of Him. Josephus wrote of Him. The Roman historian, Tacitus wrote of Him. Do you really believe if there was a piece of parchment saying "I was here - Yeshua" that you would be more likely to believe? You don't believe because you don't want to believe, but only choose to believe the rest of history. It is pretty clear a person named Jesus that was an apocalyptic figure lived in Judea and Galilee. But more evidence than most historical figures. Hardly.
Gray Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, Teancum said: It is pretty clear a person named Jesus that was an apocalyptic figure lived in Judea and Galilee. But more evidence than most historical figures. Hardly. More evidence than quite a few historical figures in antiquity, yes. 2
thesometimesaint Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 18 minutes ago, Teancum said: Why do you think religion in a matter of faith? Why should it be? Who says it should be? What does religion have to be faith based often without of evidence and even in spite of evidence. Why do you think faith seems to be one of the major prime directives og religion? What other things in your life that have such import would you argue are faith based and thus should be taken as such? Because religion is one of the major motives of human interactions. Be it for good or ill.
JAHS Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 21 minutes ago, Teancum said: Why do you think religion in a matter of faith? Why should it be? Who says it should be? What does religion have to be faith based often without of evidence and even in spite of evidence. Why do you think faith seems to be one of the major prime directives og religion? What other things in your life that have such import would you argue are faith based and thus should be taken as such? Perhaps we should qualify that religions based on the existence of a God are a matter of faith. Since we can not see or hear him, we must have faith that He exists. Religions based on the Bible are a matter of faith. We have faith that what we read and follow in the scriptures are the right things to believe and do, since there are no tangible evidences that they are, except for the fruits we receive by living those principles. There are many things in life that require some level of faith, but not quite so much as is required in matters of theology. 1
Teancum Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 11:06 AM, RevTestament said: It does in my book. Most people won't die for a fraud they are perpetrating... Or for a lie they wish to spread... People die all the time for stuff they know is BS but are willing to go to the mat for it. If you have this premise then you need to give equal belief to the truth claims of a lot of people who died for their cause that you likely don't accept as truth,
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I usually see the person who signs. Or cash the checks of signed items. Uh, nevermind. I wish all athiests were as smart as you Edited May 4, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
Teancum Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: More evidence than quite a few historical figures in antiquity, yes. Define antiquity and who are you comparing him to?
Teancum Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Perhaps we should qualify that religions based on the existence of a God are a matter of faith. Since we can not see or hear him, we must have faith that He exists. Religions based on the Bible are a matter of faith. We have faith that what we read and follow in the scriptures are the right things to believe and do, since there are no tangible evidences that they are, except for the fruits we receive by living those principles. There are many things in life that require some level of faith, but not quite so much as is required in matters of theology. But why?
Teancum Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: Because religion is one of the major motives of human interactions. Be it for good or ill. Again why? Why should religion be faith based?
JAHS Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, Teancum said: 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Perhaps we should qualify that religions based on the existence of a God are a matter of faith. Since we can not see or hear him, we must have faith that He exists. Religions based on the Bible are a matter of faith. We have faith that what we read and follow in the scriptures are the right things to believe and do, since there are no tangible evidences that they are, except for the fruits we receive by living those principles. There are many things in life that require some level of faith, but not quite so much as is required in matters of theology. But why? Because if there were no faith there would be no God-based religion. According to the dictionary the synonym for Religion based on a belief in God is faith. Without faith all that you would be left with is another field of science that considers only empirical evidence. If that's OK for you then fine. But most people don't want to believe that there is nothing beyond this life. They want to believe that there is a reason for living that will manifest itself in the next life (aka heaven). But since there's no proof of heaven or any way to test for its existence, faith is required to believe that it exists and is something to look forward to. And that gives people hope and happiness in this life and a reason for living. If they are wrong they won't know they were wrong. If they were right it will justify the faith they had while living this life and those who had no faith or religion are the ones who will have the regrets. 1
Tsuzuki Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 8 hours ago, JAHS said: But if you are supposed to doubt everything, you must doubt the love of friends and family, regardless of whether it is tangible. There is no place for trust in such a philosophy. Doubt is not the same as incredulity. Now you are being ridiculous.
JAHS Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Tsuzuki said: 8 hours ago, JAHS said: But if you are supposed to doubt everything, you must doubt the love of friends and family, regardless of whether it is tangible. There is no place for trust in such a philosophy. Doubt is not the same as incredulity. Now you are being ridiculous. Opinions vary. In my opinion doubting everything can lead to a life of cynicism, or at least it can be perceived as such by others. 1
rodheadlee Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Funny thing is..... not a single one of them can show anything to us skeptics. (that includes Jesus, he said; "you could move mountains"...... You have to get your own. I have mine but you won't believe it. I got a vision that said my wife was very sick. I fought and fought and got all the tests that I could get for her. It turned out she had colon cancer and they got it early no chemotherapy necessary. In fact the doctor said it was a miracle they caught it this early. You'll have to move your own mountains . One thing is certain he definitely left a footprint. 3
Tsuzuki Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 13 minutes ago, JAHS said: Opinions vary. In my opinion doubting everything can lead to a life of cynicism, or at least it can be perceived as such by others. Only if you have fake friends and family. If their love is real, then you have nothing to be cynical about.
RevTestament Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: You have to get your own. I have mine but you won't believe it. I got a vision that said my wife was very sick. I fought and fought and got all the tests that I could get for her. It turned out she had colon cancer and they got it early no chemotherapy necessary. In fact the doctor said it was a miracle they caught it this early. You'll have to move your own mountains . One thing is certain he definitely left a footprint. Wow. Thanks for sharing. That is is a remarkable thing rhl.
RevTestament Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Teancum said: People die all the time for stuff they know is BS but are willing to go to the mat for it. If you have this premise then you need to give equal belief to the truth claims of a lot of people who died for their cause that you likely don't accept as truth, Please read my previous post here: 11 hours ago, RevTestament said: The Muslim followers of Osama bin Laden do not believe they are perpetrating a fraud or are lying - they firmly believe what they are doing is an honorable pursuit of the truth for their god Allah. In addition Islam started out as an Arab pride kind of thing. It was ethnically their own religion rather than Jewish or Christian. Heaven's Gate followers are much the same in terms of their belief. I didn't say martyrs are always right. I said they don't generally die to perpetrate a lie or fraud. Fraudsters generally don't want to die. They want to get rich. The point is NOT to lay down their life for their fraud or lie. I never said one can always rely on the information given by martyrs. What I am saying is that it tends to be more reliable than otherwise - it is generally not a purposeful attempt to defraud or lie. Historians generally accord it more weight. Feel free to give some examples of people who die for "stuff they know is BS." I know some people die for causes I would not, but that doesn't mean they believe it to be BS. Even so, my premise still stands that martyrs generally don't die to perpetrate a fraud or a lie.
Atheist Mormon Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: You have to get your own. I have mine but you won't believe it. I got a vision that said my wife was very sick. I fought and fought and got all the tests that I could get for her. It turned out she had colon cancer and they got it early no chemotherapy necessary. In fact the doctor said it was a miracle they caught it this early. You'll have to move your own mountains . One thing is certain he definitely left a footprint. Yes, I got my own but it was a combination of hard work and modern medicine, no miracle was involved.
Atheist Mormon Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Uh, nevermind. I wish all athiests were as smart as you Actually I don't consider myself smart at all...A survivor yes.
Atheist Mormon Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I'm sure you do. Skepticism would lead to that conclusion. If God actually does require faith first before providing any evidence, how exactly would you find evidence to prove that requirement? Kind of a catch 22. But if that's how it is, then complaining about the catch 22 serves no purpose. Can't change reality. Well, God requires all this non-existent evidence because we create3d those hurdles as such they would be never attainable in the first place. It was not like Darwin goes to Galapagos islands and gives all the evidence for Evolution, Even a better example is Plate Tectonics, after Wegener disclosed Continental drifts, all we had to do was join the Continents like puzzles.....
SmileyMcGee Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Funny thing is..... not a single one of them can show anything to us skeptics. (that includes Jesus, he said; "you could move mountains"...... Would you mind defining some of the terms you're using? How would define "skeptic?" To me that term has been wasted on a group of people that can be as rigidly dogmatic as the most fundamental religionist. Also, can you define "evidence?" Edited May 5, 2017 by SmileyMcGee 2
strappinglad Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: SEE As to your claim of man and dinosaurs together.it has been debunked. SE http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html I know an hour is a long time to spend but eventually Glenn Cuban's theory is addressed. Perhaps we have dueling ' bunkers' going on here. See the youtube video under ' Record of the Rocks Don Patton ' from about 2010. You can skip to about the 25-30 minute area for the relevant portion. Edited May 5, 2017 by strappinglad
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