"I was there", A simple message accompanied by a visual evidence could suffice

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

That is not consistent with Mormonism's definition of Mormonism, which is supposed to include all truth, not just "religious" truth.

 

Wrong.

Do you think President Kimball understood Mormonism?  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Experience in one field does not automatically create expertise in another field. Expertise in religion comes from personal righteousness and from revelation. The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith: “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it.” (D&C 93:30.) A geologist who has discovered truths about the structure of the earth may be oblivious to the truths God has given us about the eternal nature of the family.

If I can only make clear this one thing, it will give us a basis on which to build. Man cannot discover God or his ways by mere mental processes. One must be governed by the laws which control the realm into which he is delving. To become a plumber, one must study the laws which govern plumbing. He must know stresses and strains, temperatures at which pipes will freeze, laws which govern steam, hot water, expansion, contraction, and so forth. One might know much about plumbing and be a complete failure in training children or getting along with men. One might be the best of bookkeepers and yet not know anything of electricity. One might know much about buying and selling groceries and be absolutely ignorant of bridge building.

One might be a great authority on the hydrogen bomb and yet know nothing of banking. One might be a noted theologian and yet be wholly untrained in watchmaking. One might be the author of the law of relativity and yet know nothing of the Creator who originated every law. I repeat, these are not matters of opinion. They are absolute truths. These truths are available to every soul.

Any intelligent man may learn what he wants to learn. He may acquire knowledge in any field, though it requires much thought and effort. It takes more than a decade to get a high school diploma; it takes an additional four years for most people to get a college degree; it takes nearly a quarter-century to become a great physician. Why, oh, why do people think they can fathom the most complex spiritual depths without the necessary experimental and laboratory work accompanied by compliance with the laws that govern it? Absurd it is, but you will frequently find popular personalities, who seem never to have lived a single law of God, discoursing in interviews on religion. How ridiculous for such persons to attempt to outline for the world a way of life!

And yet many a financier, politician, college professor, or owner of a gambling club thinks that because he has risen above all his fellowmen in his particular field he knows everything in every field. One cannot know God nor understand his works or plans unless he follows the laws which govern. The spiritual realm, which is just as absolute as is the physical, cannot be understood by the laws of the physical. You do not learn to make electric generators in a seminary. Neither do you learn certain truths about spiritual things in a physics laboratory. You must go to the spiritual laboratory, use the facilities available there, and comply with the governing rules. Then you may know of these truths just as surely, or more surely, than the scientist knows the metals, or the acids, or other elements. It matters little whether one is a plumber, or a banker, or a farmer, for these occupations are secondary; what is most important is what one knows and believes concerning his past and his future and what he does about it.....

The necessary procedure is: study, think, pray, and do. Revelation is the key. God will make it known to you once you have capitulated and have become humble and receptive. Having dropped all pride of your mental stature, having acknowledged before God your confusion, having subjected your egotism, and having surrendered yourself to the teaching of the Holy Spirit, you are ready to begin to learn. With preconceived religious notions stubbornly held, one is not teachable. The Lord has promised repeatedly that he will give you a knowledge of spiritual things when you have placed yourself in a proper frame of mind. He has counseled us to seek, ask, and search diligently. These innumerable promises are epitomized by Moroni in the following: “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:5.) What a promise! How extravagant! How wonderful!

 

Clearly that is meant to cover spiritual matters, within their sphere as he here refers to "knowledge of spiritual things".

One must NOT have preconceived notions stubbornly held but be guided by the spirit.  That is not compatible with "follow the prophet" regardless of our own testimonies.

Absolute truth is the world as directly experienced, not as interpreted in language, and yes that is my interpretation, in language.  Relativism is always only relatively true but it is the best we can do in words.  And guess what?  Science is in words and math- which is also a language.

Newsflash: science changes.

"...what is most important is what one knows and believes concerning his past and his future and what he does about it....."

Knows and believes about what??

It's about HIS past and future and what he does about it.  THAT is religion. That knowledge about what one knows and believes about his future - whether it is about going to the celestial Kingdom or Harvard University- is what is called "faith".

Edited May 9, 2017 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

 

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That would be a great aim for Mormonism and I would have loved to agree with that. But I am basing observations on the entirety of Mormonism, including the leadership, those who speak for it, and how they behave in their authority, deciding who is a member and who is not.

59 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

...or the best that I can know about them, that is.

Your's is one interpretation from your unique and limited perspective.  Your observations come no where close to being based on the "entirety of Mormonism".  Your's is a superficial judgment of outward appearances based on limited information and a biased perspective - this includes your limited understanding of past excommunications. 

You have no right to speak for the "entirety" of Mormonism.  You step out of bounds when you try to encapsulate my personal faith (which you know nothing about) in three words - three words which explain a lot about you, but say little about much else.  

For me, if I was forced to encapsulate my version of Mormonism in a few words, I would do it with just one word..."revelation".

President Brigham Young taught along with probably every other prophet that our  “first and foremost duty [is] to seek the Lord until we open the path of communication from God to our own soul."

He also said:

"How do we know that prophets wrote the word of the Lord? By revelation. How do we know that Joseph Smith was called of God to establish his Kingdom upon the earth? By revelation. How do we know that the leaders of this people teach the truth? By revelation (DBY, 38)."

Revelation...that is what Mormonism is all about for me.  You can try to dismiss my personal experience and revelation for your own unknown purposes, but please do not try to speak for the faith that you left.  It is my faith and not yours, so if you want to understand my faith...ask me.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Your concept of religion is not Mormonism.  Being a current member is not necessarily a requirement of understanding it.

And indeed, it may be some ex-Mormons who do know that line when something is no longer Mormonism.  Time and time again, from the earliest of its history, through its transitory struggles, to its most sacred covenants to modern times, Mormonism can be encapsulated in three words: "Follow the Prophet." Of course you may get by if you have your own idiosynchrosies and don't rock the boat, but step a toe out of line, appear to question the prophet, then you're a threat.

Totally incorrect

President Uchtdorf:

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng

Quote

 

Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth.

Brigham Young said: “I am … afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security. … Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates.”19

We seek for truth wherever we may find it. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “Mormonism is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or … being … prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men.”20

Yes, we do have the fulness of the everlasting gospel, but that does not mean that we know everything. In fact, one principle of the restored gospel is our belief that God “will yet reveal many great and important things.”21

The Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ came about because of a young man with a humble heart and a keen mind seeking for truth. Joseph studied and then acted accordingly. He discovered that if a man lacks wisdom, he can ask of God and the truth really will be given unto him.22

The great miracle of the Restoration was not just that it corrected false ideas and corrupt doctrines—though it certainly did that—but that it flung open the curtains of heaven and initiated a steady downpour of new light and knowledge that has continued to this day.

So we continually seek truth from all good books and other wholesome sources. “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”23 In this manner we can resist the deceit of the evil one. In this manner we learn the truth “precept upon precept; line upon line.”24 And we will learn that intelligence cleaves unto intelligence, and wisdom receives wisdom, and truth embraces truth.25

My young friends, as you accept the responsibility to seek after truth with an open mind and a humble heart, you will become more tolerant of others, more open to listen, more prepared to understand, more inclined to build up instead of tearing down, and more willing to go where the Lord wants you to go.

The Holy Ghost—Our Guide to All Truth

Just think about it. You actually have a powerful companion and trustworthy guide in this ongoing search for truth. Who is it? It is the Holy Ghost. Our Heavenly Father knew how difficult it would be for us to sift through all the competing noise and discover truth during our mortality. He knew we would see only a portion of the truth, and He knew that Satan would try to deceive us. So He gave us the heavenly gift of the Holy Ghost to illuminate our minds, teach us, and testify to us of the truth.

The Holy Ghost is a revelator. He is the Comforter, who teaches us “the truth of all things; … [who] knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.”26

The Holy Ghost is a certain and safe guide to assist all mortals who seek God as they navigate the often troubling waters of confusion and contradiction.

The Witness of truth from the Holy Ghost is available to all, everywhere, all around the globe. All who seek to know the truth, who study it out in their minds,27 and who “ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, [will know] the truth … by the power of the Holy Ghost.”28

And there is the additional, unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost available to all who qualify themselves through baptism and by living worthy of His constant companionship.

Yes, your loving Father in Heaven would never leave you alone in this mortality to wander in the dark. You need not be deceived. You can overcome the darkness of this world and discover divine truth.

Some, however, do not seek for truth so much as they strive for contention. They do not sincerely seek to learn; rather, they desire to dispute, to show off their supposed learning and thus cause contention. They ignore or reject the counsel of the Apostle Paul to Timothy: “Foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do [generate contention].”29

As disciples of Jesus Christ, we know that such contention is completely inconsistent with the Spirit upon whom we depend in our search for truth. As the Savior warned the Nephites, “For verily … I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention.”30

If you follow the Spirit, your personal search for the truth inevitably leads you to the Lord and Savior, even Jesus Christ, for He is “the way, the truth, and the life.”31This may not be the most convenient way; it will probably also be the road less traveled, and it will be the path with mountains to climb, swift rivers to cross, but it will be His way—the Savior’s redeeming way.

I add my witness as an Apostle of the Lord, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. I know this with all my heart and mind. I know this by the witness and power of the Holy Ghost.

I ask you to spare no efforts in your search to know this truth for yourself—because this truth will make you free.32

My dear young friends, you are the hope of Israel. We love you. The Lord knows you; He loves you. The Lord has great confidence in you. He knows your successes, and He is mindful of your challenges and questions in life.

It is my prayer that you will seek the truth earnestly and unceasingly, that you will yearn to drink from the fount of all truth, whose waters are pure and sweet, “a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”33

I bless you with confidence in the Lord and a deep-rooted desire to rightfully discern truth from error—now and throughout your life. This is my prayer and my blessing, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

© 2013 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. English approval: 8/12. What Is Truth? PD50045368 000

 

 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Totally incorrect

President Uchtdorf:

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng

 

Do you think President Uchtdorf would want us to question everything in our quest for truth or only some things?

[MormonVideoGame]

22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If you have a religious question you use religious methods.  Seems quite clear to me- why are you so confused?

Stick to video games- you are safe there without critical thinking.

Do you believe in the rabbit's foot? Reiki? demons? spirits? haunted houses? reincarnation? alien abductions? dowsing?  black magic? alternative medicine? Why not?  Millions believe that stuff because of some personal experience. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Do you think President Uchtdorf would want us to question everything in our quest for truth or only some things?

I don't know or care.

That was not the question. I follow the spirit where it leads me. I can't do anything else and haven't in the last 40 years

 

 

[SteveO]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't know or care.

That was not the question. I follow the spirit where it leads me. I can't do anything else and haven't in the last 40 years

 

 

Don't you get tired of repeating yourself over and over again?

I wouldn't think less of you if you threw in the towel...

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I don't consider it a particularly compelling argument for the historicity of Jesus that there is no contemporaneous evidence of Buddha.   After all, there were tens of thousands of witnesses to Mohammed.   I don't accept your slurs of Mohammed as having anything to do with the question of the historicity of Jesus. 

Are you sure there are tens of thousands of "witnesses" to Muhammed?  Where are they? Are you aware that there are no attestations to Muhammed within the Arab world till the Quran was allegedly compiled at least 30 years after his death? That his biographers and and the rest of the hadith weren't until about 150 years or more after his death, and that it is fairly evident they are copying one another? That in actuality the first attestation to the name of Muhammed appears from only about 2 Christian sources? And lastly that what you are calling my "slurs of Mohammed" come from Islam's own biographies and Hadith of Muhammed? Before you claim we have tens of thousands of eye witnesses of Muhammed, you might want to check your sources. Most of the sources never saw the man. They are merely reporting oral traditions and history concerning Muhammed. Islam's own sources indicate Uthman compiled the Quran not only from oral history but from stones, palm branches, and all kinds of "well organized" stuff like that.

Quote

But it is rather astounding that Paul, who lived in the Jerusalem at the time of Christ and who was one of leadership structure, has nothing to say about Christ's ministry.  Nothing.

Jesus actually spent little of His ministry in Jerusalem, and virtually all pharisees would have considered Him a heretic as He criticized their traditions and rules. He is not someone they would have sought out.

Quote

I am fairly certain that Josephus was corrupted by later interpolation.

He was a historian of the same century as Yeshua, who is as credible as anyone else. What evidence do you have that his writings were corrupted if that is what you are saying?

 

My contention stands that Yeshua is well attested in history - especially in comparison to most other people of the age. He is also attested in biblical prophecy quite well.

Edited May 10, 2017 by RevTestament

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

Don't you get tired of repeating yourself over and over again?

I wouldn't think less of you if you threw in the towel...

I do and I might.  The only reason I am still here frankly is experimental- trying to see what phraseology gets the best response and gets them to drop their guns the quickest.

I am polishing the argument.  As in Polish that is. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Do you believe in the rabbit's foot? Reiki? demons? spirits? haunted houses? reincarnation? alien abductions? dowsing?  black magic? alternative medicine? Why not?  Millions believe that stuff because of some personal experience. 

Only fools believe what others believe because others believe that, including present company,

Do you know how many times I have heard all this before?  Hundreds.  Your arguments- word for word.  Think for yourself if you have the ability

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by mfbukowski

[MormonVideoGame]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Only fools believe what others believe because others believe that, including present company,

Do you know how many times I have heard all this before?  Hundreds.  Your arguments- word for word.  Think for yourself if you have the ability

Let me repeat  

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Do you believe in the rabbit's foot? Reiki? demons? spirits? haunted houses? reincarnation? alien abductions? dowsing?  black magic? alternative medicine? Why not?  Millions believe that stuff because of some personal experience. 

 

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Let me repeat  

 

Why?

Why should I care what other experiences others have had?

This is not science- then it would matter.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD THIS IS ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

It is about why you do what you do, what is important to you, and what you find valuable in your life- it is not about other people.

This is about what is subjective and unique to you in your life.  It is your world you are creating from matter unorganized as a god in embryo.

How could anyone be Mormon and not get that? The scriptures are to apply to YOUR life literally and metaphorically as is necessary.

They are not about describing the world- they are about describing what you want to become.

Edited May 10, 2017 by mfbukowski

[MormonVideoGame]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why?

Why should I care what other experiences others have had?

This is not science- then it would matter.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD THIS IS ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

People that believe in the rabbit's foot, Reiki, demons, spirits, haunted houses, reincarnation, alien abductions, dowsing, black magic,and alternative medicine say the same thing. 

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

People that believe in the rabbit's foot, Reiki, demons, spirits, haunted houses, reincarnation, alien abductions, dowsing, black magic,and alternative medicine say the same thing. 

 

I give up with you.

You do not comprehend a word I have said

Bye

Maybe you missed the edit.  

Edited May 10, 2017 by mfbukowski

[MormonVideoGame]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I give up with you.

You do not comprehend a word I have said

Bye

I do, and you do not know that because it is my own personal experience. 

"It's true for me" "I know it's true" " It is my experience"  

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I do, and you do not know that because it is my own personal experience. 

"It's true for me" "I know it's true" " It is my experience"  

Finding a wife is pseudoscience and therefore irrelevant to your life, as is choosing a value system 

Fine.

This is not even about science much less pseudoscience and you definitely missed the edit- yet again

Think before replying and read the post.  I cannot believe you really are that dense

[mfbukowski]

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD THIS IS ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

It is about why you do what you do, what is important to you, and what you find valuable in your life- it is not about other people.

This is about what is subjective and unique to you in your life.  It is your world you are creating from matter unorganized as a god in embryo.

How could anyone be Mormon and not get that? The scriptures are to apply to YOUR life literally and metaphorically as is necessary.

They are not about describing the world- they are about describing what you want to become.

[Meadowchik]

45 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD THIS IS ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

It is about why you do what you do, what is important to you, and what you find valuable in your life- it is not about other people.

This is about what is subjective and unique to you in your life.  It is your world you are creating from matter unorganized as a god in embryo.

How could anyone be Mormon and not get that? The scriptures are to apply to YOUR life literally and metaphorically as is necessary.

They are not about describing the world- they are about describing what you want to become.

In your opinion.

[Rajah Manchou]

50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Think before replying and read the post.  I cannot believe you really are that dense

If your posts are an "experiment to see what phraseology gets the best response", I'd suggest this one is on the less effective end of the spectrum.

[Meadowchik]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

 

Your's is one interpretation from your unique and limited perspective.  Your observations come no where close to being based on the "entirety of Mormonism".  Your's is a superficial judgment of outward appearances based on limited information and a biased perspective - this includes your limited understanding of past excommunications. 

You have no right to speak for the "entirety" of Mormonism.  You step out of bounds when you try to encapsulate my personal faith (which you know nothing about) in three words - three words which explain a lot about you, but say little about much else.  

For me, if I was forced to encapsulate my version of Mormonism in a few words, I would do it with just one word..."revelation".

President Brigham Young taught along with probably every other prophet that our  “first and foremost duty [is] to seek the Lord until we open the path of communication from God to our own soul."

He also said:

"How do we know that prophets wrote the word of the Lord? By revelation. How do we know that Joseph Smith was called of God to establish his Kingdom upon the earth? By revelation. How do we know that the leaders of this people teach the truth? By revelation (DBY, 38)."

Revelation...that is what Mormonism is all about for me.  You can try to dismiss my personal experience and revelation for your own unknown purposes, but please do not try to speak for the faith that you left.  It is my faith and not yours, so if you want to understand my faith...ask me.

"...but please do not try to speak for the faith that you left.  It is my faith and not yours, so if you want to understand my faith...ask me."

I do understand the argument, "if you want to understand Mormonism, ask a Mormon." I have cited this argument as a believing Mormon.  It is true that one cannot get a complete picture of Mormonism without asking Mormons.

But I did more than ask Mormons, pogi.  I was Mormon, believed Mormonism, and lived it for forty years.

One can also argue that you cannot have a complete perspective of Mormonism until you're on the outside looking in at it.  I've been on the inside and outside, so who's perspective is more complete?

I'd say that, reasonably, it's unfair to exclude my thoughts about Mormonism if you are going to allow yours to be legitimate.

So I suggest a truce: we both can legitimately speak about our perspectives about Mormonism, and if either of us makes claims, we can be expected to support them.

My claim that you seem to dislike is that Mormonism is encapsulated in "Follow the prophet." I am willing to support this claim, and I will do so from different angles.

First, we can say that "Follow the prophet" is essential to Mormonism because the LDS church excommunicates members based on apostasy, or "preaching false doctrine." In other words, preaching contrary to the prophets is outside the boundaries of Mormonism. 

Thus, to be within the boundaries of Mormonism, one must preach in accordance with the prophets, or in other words, follow the prophet in preaching.

Second, Mormonism completely relies on revelation, which happens to be in line with how you describe Mormonism for you.  However, personal revelation in Mormonism is not absolutely acceptable in the church. The church relies on prophetic revelation, and revelation to the prophet for the church trumps personal revelation.  If you decide, for example, that the Lord revealed unto you to take on a second wife as your spiritual wife today, or if you decided to marry someone of the same sex, or if you decided your body is the wrong gender and undergo surgery to change your secondary sex characteristics to that of the gender that is not your biological gender, you would be subject to a disciplinary council for going against the doctrine and policies of the church, or in other words, going against the prophet.

At another time, if you believed you received personal revelation to take on a second wife, that might have been acceptable within Mormonism.  The difference between that being acceptable and that being apostasy is whether it follows the living prophet of that day.

Prophetic revelation trumps personal revelation in Mormonism.

Third, first and foremost Mormonism relies on the founding revelatory experiences claimed by Joseph Smith in which he claims to have see God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, that subsequent to this experience, Joseph restored Christ's church that had been in apostasy and to Joseph the lost priesthood keys and authority were restored to mankind on the earth.

Mormonism is relatively distinctive, for example, with baptism.  Only one baptism is valid, and that is baptism by those having authority as passed onto them through prophets and priesthood holders down the line from Joseph Smith. No other baptism today or since the Great Apostasy is valid to save, according to Mormonism. In Mormonism's salvation itself, one must follow the prophet.

The seminal moment and existential nature of Mormonism completely relies on following the prophet Joseph Smith.

So, just like anyone else, you can believe what you will about Mormonism.  You can adapt it to fit your needs.  However, if you want to participate in Mormonism, you must follow the prophet to a minimal degree.  Otherwise, according to Mormonism, you cannot receive the blessings of the ordinances of salvation or exaltation.

 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't know or care.

That was not the question. I follow the spirit where it leads me. I can't do anything else and haven't in the last 40 years

 

 

Has the spirit ever told you to do something contrary to what the prophet at the time said? If so, did you follow what you thought the spirit said or did you follow the prophet?

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I actually paraphrased the ninth Article of faith in this thread today. But in this case, there is a difference between LDS practice and policy and doctrine and other doctrine.  They don't always line up.

That we all fall short, at times,  of that goal is nothing new. We very fallible mortals have been doing that for a very long time now. Hopefully God will forgive me, and allow me to repent, for I have done it often.

[thesometimesaint]

4 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Has the spirit ever told you to do something contrary to what the prophet at the time said? If so, did you follow what you thought the spirit said or did you follow the prophet?

Do something? Not yet. But yes there have been times where I have disagreed on something they had said, and the Holy Spirit said so. I was later proven right.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

11 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Do something? Not yet. But yes there have been times where I have disagreed on something they had said, and the Holy Spirit said so. I was later proven right.

What was it, if you want to share?  Even so, you're not supposed to do that, right, unless the prophet was acting as a man?  Anyway, how do you explain this:  We are supposed to follow the prophet but the prophet sometimes acts as a man and so we are to use the spirit to tell us whether or not the prophet is acting as a man or a prophet because the prophet won't tell us when he is acting as a man or a prophet.  If there is a contrary spiritual manifestation to what the prophet says, then we are supposed to follow the prophet who could simply be acting as a man at that point.  Wouldn't it be easier if the prophet just said "thus sayeth the Lord ......." Why do you think they don't do that?

[Meadowchik]

36 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

That we all fall short, at times,  of that goal is nothing new. We very fallible mortals have been doing that for a very long time now. Hopefully God will forgive me, and allow me to repent, for I have done it often.

To that I add in my own behalf, from my lips to God's ears!