"I was there", A simple message accompanied by a visual evidence could suffice

[Tsuzuki]

8 hours ago, JAHS said:

According to Wiki:
"The law of Thelema was developed in the early 1900s by Aleister Crowley, an English writer and ceremonial magician.[1] He believed himself to be the prophet of a new age, the Æon of Horus, based upon a spiritual experience that he and his wife, Rose Edith, had in Egypt in 1904.[2] By his account, a possibly non-corporeal or "praeterhuman" being that called itself Aiwass contacted him and dictated a text known as The Book of the Law or Liber AL vel Legis, which outlined the principles of Thelema".

It seems to me it would take faith to believe that this Aleister Crowley really did have this supernatural experience and that this "praeterhuman" being really did dictate the law to him. Or is the Wiki wrong?

No faith is required, because no belief is required. In Thelema, we are encouraged to doubt even our own origin story, and it's there for target practice. I would recommend the same approach to the Bible.

 

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
- Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

 

"Doubt.
Doubt thyself.
Doubt even if thou doubtest thyself.
Doubt all.
Doubt even if thou doubtest all.
It seems sometimes as if beneath all conscious doubt there lay some deepest certainty. O kill it! Slay the snake!"
- Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies

 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

When I saw Utah's wilderness first time 26 yrs old, I had little or no knowledge about stuff like Evolution, paleontology or geology. It didn't take me long to be convinced about the origins of the Earth or Humans; it was simply a matter of evidence, which was so abundant in Utah in the form of Rocks, Fossils and geologic strata upon strata laying everywhere. 

It would be so wonderful if Jesus left a signature like this Dinosaur did. My lifelong struggle with belief would non-existent. 

 

Why would you trust a signature? 

[JAHS]

53 minutes ago, Tsuzuki said:

No faith is required, because no belief is required. In Thelema, we are encouraged to doubt even our own origin story, and it's there for target practice. I would recommend the same approach to the Bible.

 

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
- Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

 

"Doubt.
Doubt thyself.
Doubt even if thou doubtest thyself.
Doubt all.
Doubt even if thou doubtest all.
It seems sometimes as if beneath all conscious doubt there lay some deepest certainty. O kill it! Slay the snake!"
- Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies

 

What an incredibly unstable and uncertain life to live with such an attitude. Do you doubt the love of your wife or daughter?

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

What to you make of the mythicists?  They seem to be gaining acceptance.  However, I think the central issue is whether or not Jesus was the Son of God as you do.

Both are correct:  The mythicists and historians.  Jesus certainly fits the dying and rising god motif to a T.  Frazer was right.  The problem, as C. S. Lewis realized (as an atheist at Oxford), is that Jesus fits altogether too well -- the one instance in which the myth became reality.

[Tsuzuki]

45 minutes ago, JAHS said:

What an incredibly unstable and uncertain life to live with such an attitude. Do you doubt the love of your wife or daughter?

The love of friends and family is tangible, and its absence can be seen in abusive relationships. No faith is required, and excessive faith in the face of abuse is unhealthy.

[Tsuzuki]

37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Both are correct:  The mythicists and historians.  Jesus certainly fits the dying and rising god motif to a T.  Frazer was right.  The problem, as C. S. Lewis realized (as an atheist at Oxford), is that Jesus fits altogether too well -- the one instance in which the myth became reality.

Lots of people do the dying part. Is there independent evidence that Jesus actually did the rising part?

And Lewis is right. The story of Jesus does fit the motif too well. I might even suspect that his followers made it fit.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Tsuzuki

[Pete Ahlstrom]

44 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Both are correct:  The mythicists and historians.  Jesus certainly fits the dying and rising god motif to a T.  Frazer was right.  The problem, as C. S. Lewis realized (as an atheist at Oxford), is that Jesus fits altogether too well -- the one instance in which the myth became reality.

Interesting take. So is this along the lines of your bayes theorem application to the book of mormon? The more fantastical the claim the more likely it is a reality if there is some tangible evidence backing it up?

[Tsuzuki]

3 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

The more fantastical the claim the more likely it is a reality if there is some tangible evidence backing it up?

I have some bridges for sale if anyone wants one. They're magical.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Tsuzuki

[Pete Ahlstrom]

9 minutes ago, Tsuzuki said:

I have some bridges for sale if anyone wants one. They're magical.

Haha. I'd like to hear Robert's explanation about CS Lewis, too. I would also like to have an answer to Bart Ehrman's question about if Jesus' words were so important, why weren't they preserved? We don't have any personal writings of the Son of God, only copies of copies of copies of probably third hand accounts of supposedly what He did and said. Is this supposedly for faith reasons?

Edited May 4, 2017 by Pete Ahlstrom

[strappinglad]

Even if we had the personal writings of Jesus and somehow they could be authenticated, people would still be able to say " So what? , that doesn't prove Jesus was the Son of God . " Faith would still be required to make that leap. I suppose Jesus could return every year to appear on CNN and get interviewed. Any skeptics still going to doubt? Yup.

In Texas there is a creek with dino tracks/signatures  preserved in the river bed. Beside them are other tracks which some say are human and some say are just swirls in the mud. Both sets of tracks have been followed under the river bank . Both interpretations require faith in a paradigm. Unless there is a video tape of the event as it happened millions( or thousands ) of years ago, we struggle to find the truth. Even with video tape people will disagree .Remember Rodney King?

[Tsuzuki]

5 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Even if we had the personal writings of Jesus and somehow they could be authenticated, people would still be able to say " So what? , that doesn't prove Jesus was the Son of God . " Faith would still be required to make that leap.

Some leaps are bigger than others. I'm all ready to take the Son of God leap as soon as the claims of Jesus' historical existence and resurrection are verified to within the same margin of error as the historical existence of King Herod.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

No faith is required, because no belief is required. In Thelema, we are encouraged to doubt even our own origin story, and it's there for target practice. I would recommend the same approach to the Bible.

 

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
- Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

 

"Doubt.
Doubt thyself.
Doubt even if thou doubtest thyself.
Doubt all.
Doubt even if thou doubtest all.
It seems sometimes as if beneath all conscious doubt there lay some deepest certainty. O kill it! Slay the snake!"
- Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies

 

Self-contradictory. 

"By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

That is Alma 32 pragmatics and is a faith position predicting that certain results will follow from certain actions.

Belief itself can be self fulfilling as in the placebo effect. There need not be a measurable known cause which is "objective"

Crowley just liked Halloween too much. Strictly showmanship.

" it seems sometimes...."

That is the ultimate cop-out, and weasel phrase. What fact does not seem sometimes to be incorrect? Language itself is ambiguous enough to cover that eventuality, of sometimes being incorrect

There's nothing here but platitudes that might seem scary to some.

Edited May 4, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tsuzuki said:

Some leaps are bigger than others. I'm all ready to take the Son of God leap as soon as the claims of Jesus' historical existence and resurrection are verified to within the same margin of error as the historical existence of King Herod.

And that would you also believe that Herod it was a minion of Satan?

For me that is too gullible a position. Because there was an actual Jesus of Nazareth you would therefore believe that your sins are forgiven? If I told you Abraham Lincoln forgave your sins would you would you believe it? What's the difference?

Edited May 4, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Interesting take. So is this along the lines of your bayes theorem application to the book of mormon? The more fantastical the claim the more likely it is a reality if there is some tangible evidence backing it up?

Insofar as the preponderance of evidence comes to carry the day for Lewis, yes.  The other dying & rising god myths are clearly much more fantastic than the story of Jesus, which is filled with the realistic dirt, grime, and blood of a Galilean Wunderrebbe of no importance to the great Roman Empire.  The stories of Adonis and Osiris are far more exotic, but far less tangible.  Jesus in history comes finally to have more in common with Socrates.

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Even if we had the personal writings of Jesus and somehow they could be authenticated, people would still be able to say " So what? , that doesn't prove Jesus was the Son of God . " Faith would still be required to make that leap. I suppose Jesus could return every year to appear on CNN and get interviewed. Any skeptics still going to doubt? Yup.

In Texas there is a creek with dino tracks/signatures  preserved in the river bed. Beside them are other tracks which some say are human and some say are just swirls in the mud. Both sets of tracks have been followed under the river bank . Both interpretations require faith in a paradigm. Unless there is a video tape of the event as it happened millions( or thousands ) of years ago, we struggle to find the truth. Even with video tape people will disagree .Remember Rodney King?

SEE

As to your claim of man and dinosaurs together.it has been debunked.

SE http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

Lots of people do the dying part. Is there independent evidence that Jesus actually did the rising part?

And Lewis is right. The story of Jesus does fit the motif too well. I might even suspect that his followers made it fit.

The "Passover Plot," yes.  For the Christian, that is indeed the ultimate question, just as for both Jews and Christians, the issue comes down to whether there really was a Moses and the Exodus.  It may be a historical fact that there were Israelites in Palestine then (and now), but are they the Chosen People of Yahweh?  Or is that a self-fulfilling fantasy?

[bcuzbcuz]

18 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It does in my book. Most people won't die for a fraud they are perpetrating...

Or for a lie they wish to spread...

Tell that to the followers of Osama bin Laden. Or the followers of Marshall Applewhite of "Heaven's Gate". 

[bcuzbcuz]

12 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

HE left a footprint of approximately 4 billion believers since his birth.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You mean number of followers is proof of truth (or divinity)? When the balance of the number of believers tips in favour of Islam, what does that mean? Or exactly how do number of followers play into the numbers of believers in Joseph Smith?

But if I haven't counted incorrectly, the number of believers in the Old Testament prophets far outnumber the believer in Christ (as the son of God). 

IMO number of believers is not a competent measure of holiness.  

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You mean number of followers is proof of truth (or divinity)? When the balance of the number of believers tips in favour of Islam, what does that mean? Or exactly how do number of followers play into the numbers of believers in Joseph Smith?

But if I haven't counted incorrectly, the number of believers in the Old Testament prophets far outnumber the believer in Christ (as the son of God). 

IMO number of believers is not a competent measure of holiness.  

That is not what I said, perhaps you should read the OP.

Edited May 4, 2017 by rodheadlee

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Tell that to the followers of Osama bin Laden. Or the followers of Marshall Applewhite of "Heaven's Gate". 

The Muslim followers of Osama bin Laden do not believe they are perpetrating a fraud or are lying - they firmly believe what they are doing is an honorable pursuit of the truth for their god Allah. In addition Islam started out as an Arab pride kind of thing. It was ethnically their own religion rather than Jewish or Christian. Heaven's Gate followers are much the same in terms of their belief. I didn't say martyrs are always right. I said they don't generally die to perpetrate a lie or fraud. Fraudsters generally don't want to die. They want to get rich. The point is NOT to lay down their life for their fraud or lie. I never said one can always rely on the information given by martyrs. What I am saying is that it tends to be more reliable than otherwise - it is generally not a purposeful attempt to defraud or lie. Historians generally accord it more weight.

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

The love of friends and family is tangible

But if you are supposed to doubt everything, you must doubt the love of friends and family, regardless of whether it is tangible. There is no place for trust in such a philosophy. 

[thesometimesaint]

7 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You mean number of followers is proof of truth (or divinity)? When the balance of the number of believers tips in favour of Islam, what does that mean? Or exactly how do number of followers play into the numbers of believers in Joseph Smith?

But if I haven't counted incorrectly, the number of believers in the Old Testament prophets far outnumber the believer in Christ (as the son of God). 

IMO number of believers is not a competent measure of holiness.  

Christians believe in the Old Testament prophets. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. Christianity is the dominate religion in the world with some 2.2 Billion adherents. OTOH that says nothing about its sects truth claims.

[Atheist Mormon]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why would you trust a signature? 

I usually see the person who signs. Or cash the checks of signed items.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Atheist Mormon

[Atheist Mormon]

20 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

HE left a footprint of approximately 4 billion believers since his birth.

Funny thing is..... not a single one of them can show anything to us skeptics. (that includes Jesus, he said; "you could move mountains"......

 

[thesometimesaint]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I usually see the person who signs. Or cash the checks of signed items.

So you believe what someone else says.