A man and woman are legally divorced by law, but she is still sealed to him in the temple (in some cases)

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

 You prefer dead prophets over living ones, as you have made clear,  but that does not align with church teachings. There is no debate that we are instructed to follow the living prophet for our age and time. This is but one quote, https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-7-continuous-revelation-through-living-prophets?lang=eng

It would be more accurate to say I prefer those that claim revelation and source from God vs those who do not.
But you are correct, Brigham taught things that the current prophets don't.

Still, the best statement on divorce and sealing cancellation remains the one Brigham made - "When you want to get a bill of divorce, you had better wait and find out whether the Lord is willing to give you one or not, and not come to me."

If God joined the couple with a covenant only God can release the couple from that covenant.

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think there's a lot of truth to the fact that most of it depends on the local leaders (and most of the actual work is done by the bishop. The stake president includes a letter as well and sends it off). We just had a sealing cancellation go through (sealing to another spouse after civil marriage following civil divorce), and one of the things required on the application is proof of an attempt to contact the ex-spouse. I used to have to type the letter myself, but the form prints a form letter with the leader and recipient info pasted in. The letter asks them to send a letter to the leader explaining how they feel about the proposed action and giving any concerns. If no letter is received, leaders are to upload a scan of the certified mail receipt, showing that the letter was signed for and received. I could see failure to include proof of an attempt to let the ex-spouse speak their piece resulting in denial of the application.

And, applications for sealing clearance/sealing cancellation are denied all the time as well. They are not just rubber-stamped by Salt Lake.

   Do you see the SP's letter? 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

   Do you see the SP's letter? 

IIRC- the SP forwards the final, completed packet with his letter to SLC so I only saw the SP's letter if I requested to see it.

[rongo]

No, bishops don't see the SP's letter. They also get way more characters than the bishop, so they can say a lot more. But, 6000 characters is still plenty. 

The bishop has to make sure all the records are correct, and if the bishop's letter does a good job of explaining the background and making the case, I think that makes the SP's letter that much easier. The bishop is the one who has to send the letter to the ex-spouse and submit proof that this has been done, and this is usually what the bottleneck is in the process. 

[juliann]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm finding myself taking snippets from a number of these prophets and throwing out that which I don't like.  I'm as likely to quote Joseph Smith to support my thoughts and feelings than I am Hinckley or Monson.  But then again, on some stuff I'd likely eschew Joseph in favor or Hinkley or Monson's thoughts.  In some cases I may eschew them all, though.  I'm probably worse than JHLProf in the eyes of our modern Church.  Oh well.  What can you do? 

Well, we all do that. But when it comes to supporting discarded practices like polygamy, it does separate you from the church to be heralding BY over modern prophets who reject polygamy and have not said a word about it starting up again at some magic moment. 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Well, we all do that. But when it comes to supporting discarded practices like polygamy, it does separate you from the church to be heralding BY over modern prophets who reject polygamy and have not said a word about it starting up again at some magic moment. 

 - If you are referring to me I have never claimed polygamy will start again in this life (not even in the Millennium as was speculated by some leaders).
All I have ever claimed is that polygamous sealings were eternal in nature, just like our current monogamous ones.
And one day we will all enter eternity so our society there will feature polygamy.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

 - If you are referring to me I have never claimed polygamy will start again in this life (not even in the Millennium as was speculated by some leaders).
All I have ever claimed is that polygamous sealings were eternal in nature, just like our current monogamous ones.
And one day we will all enter eternity so our society there will feature polygamy.

When in eternity we're all sealed to each other and God, what does that make us when man is sealed to man and woman to woman?  Oh well, I'm off topic now. 

[juliann]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

No, bishops don't see the SP's letter. They also get way more characters than the bishop, so they can say a lot more. But, 6000 characters is still plenty. 

The bishop has to make sure all the records are correct, and if the bishop's letter does a good job of explaining the background and making the case, I think that makes the SP's letter that much easier. The bishop is the one who has to send the letter to the ex-spouse and submit proof that this has been done, and this is usually what the bottleneck is in the process. 

That was my experience. My SP was a neighbor, he was my advocate. I try to imagine my doing this now when I've only seen the SP in a recommend interview. That letter would be very different, I think. 

I cannot even imagine SLC ignoring the plea and witness of a SP, who has direct stewardship. I'm not discounting the bishop, but I think the SP likely has more authority as he does in all situations. I am certain this is what makes the difference. Nobody can prove anything, of course, but in that sense SLC does "rubber stamp." How could they not...on what basis? That the spiritual leaders who actually know the person involved were both out to lunch when the spirit came by? What additional information could SLC have? A feeling? They wouldn't have any additional information unless we are going to move this up to revelation. There are enough of these things pouring in that they are signed by writing machines. 

So if everything is in place, the rules and criteria met, and it is refused. I would lay it at the feet of the SP. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

When in eternity we're all sealed to each other and God, what does that make us when man is sealed to man and woman to woman?  Oh well, I'm off topic now. 

There are different types of sealings, so we won't all be 'one big family' in every sense.  Sealings for couples are different than the sealings that bind children to their parents, for example.  

[Jane_Doe]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But sin can be repented of.
There is no unrepented sin of any kind in the Celestial Kingdom.
So if a husband and wife who were sealed both make it to the Celestial Kingdom they ARE without sin.  So for what cause could that sealing be nullified?

I do believe agency plays a role, but the balance between agency and covenant is one I think we have yet to determine.  I don't think God allows us to back out of covenants without cause just because we think we want to at some point.

My previous post was specifically addressing a never repentant person, so of course sealings and other Celestial things do not apply to non-Celestrail people.  

Yes, of course there is repentance- such as joy and critical.  

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

When in eternity we're all sealed to each other and God, what does that make us when man is sealed to man and woman to woman?  Oh well, I'm off topic now. 

Different sealings and you know it.
Marriage sealings, parent/child sealings, heirship sealings (adoptions), and more.

And the topic of this thread is marriage sealings vs civil divorce.
I would think eternal sealings are on topic.

[JulieM]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are different types of sealings, so we won't all be 'one big family' in every sense.  Sealings for couples are different than the sealings that bind children to their parents, for example.  

I've heard this too, but wonder how it makes sense.  How will sealings be different?  We will be joined or bound together with both.  Do you think we will "live" with our spouse or always be with them, but not with the others we're sealed to?

I honestly think all of that gets very jumbled and confusing.  If we're all going to be sealed, how will some sealings look or actually be different?

ETA:. Maybe with creative powers for some sealings and not others?

Edited May 3, 2017 by JulieM

[juliann]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 - If you are referring to me I have never claimed polygamy will start again in this life (not even in the Millennium as was speculated by some leaders).
All I have ever claimed is that polygamous sealings were eternal in nature, just like our current monogamous ones.
And one day we will all enter eternity so our society there will feature polygamy.

I've debated with you long enough to know that eternal "feature" is code for all men get to join in.   Those in 19th c  plural marriages are such a microscopic drop of the heavenly population they wouldn't even be noticed. And whether that continues is up to the participants anyway. (If you believe in the heavenly honeymoon cottage version of sealings)

The current sealing policy is a holdover of polygamy so it is on topic, but a bit of a derail nonetheless.

[Maestrophil]

I can relate my experience here for another view of a real situation.  I was divorced from my ex-wife in 2009.  I met my current wife in 2010 and we got married in December of that year.  We requested a cancellation of my previous sealing.  I was granted a clearance to be sealed to my current wife, but denied a cancellation with the explanation that the first presidency does not like anyone to be a 'floater' without being sealed, and that is what would become of my ex-wife if I was granted a cancellation.  

It bothered me and my wife that I was sealed to the ex, but the explanation that has been shared here was shared with me too, namely that I would not have to be sealed to anyone I did not want to be sealed to in the eternities.  My wife and I went on like this for a few years, and it finally got to the point where my wife was just really angry about it, and I was not really happy with it either.  I wrote the first presidency explaining that we had tried our best, and it wasn't working - it was damaging our current relationship, and keeping us from being able to truly forgive and move on.

Within a few weeks, I received a letter from the first presidency granting the cancellation.  I assume they contacted my ex-wife regarding the matter, but I was not informed if they did.  She never mentioned it to me.

It was relieving for my wife and I to not bear the burden of trying to wrestle with that 'dichotomy'. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Maestrophil
Horrible typing...

[Jane_Doe]

47 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think you're getting hung up on your personal example. I'm not talking about your example. I've attempted to describe the process and how I've seen it work. There will always be exceptions.

I was talking about your example....   I have no "personal example" to get hung up on.  

47 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But saying that there is "zero effect" isn't accurate. For the person trying to become free of the relationship, having the church maintain that there is still a connection or bond can be emotionally destabilizing and hurtful. 

It's a dead piece of paper if either spouse refuses to ever repent of their sins and honor their covenants.... 

47 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If it's not a big deal, why would the church EVER reject a request for cancellation? When someone trusts that decision as coming from a prophet, then that can have a negative emotional impact.

Because repentance is a real thing.  Yes, you may not want to be married to some abusive/cheating/sinful person.  But what if that person totally repents, is reborn, and is totally Christ-like?  

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are different types of sealings, so we won't all be 'one big family' in every sense.  Sealings for couples are different than the sealings that bind children to their parents, for example.  

I guess we'll see..  I'm not so certain as you

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Different sealings and you know it.
Marriage sealings, parent/child sealings, heirship sealings (adoptions), and more.

And the topic of this thread is marriage sealings vs civil divorce.
I would think eternal sealings are on topic.

I know no such thing and neither do you.  We know less about dealings in eternity than we think.  We trust what leaders tell us but for we know they know less than us.  

Im looking forward to us having our minds blown.  Oops well say as our biased views get destroyed.  

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I've heard this too, but wonder how it makes sense.  How will sealings be different?  We will be joined or bound together with both.  Do you think we will "live" with our spouse or always be with them, but not with the others we're sealed to?

I honestly think all of that gets very jumbled and confusing.  If we're all going to be sealed, how will some sealings look or actually be different?

ETA:. Maybe with creative powers for some sealings and not others?

I have no idea how it will all work (and i bet a lot of it we could never really even imagine  ), but i think one thing that illustrates how sealings are different is that husband and wife sealings are covenantal while children sealings are not. 

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I know no such thing and neither do you.  We know less about dealings in eternity than we think.  We trust what leaders tell us but for we know they know less than us.  

Im looking forward to us having our minds blown.  Oops well say as our biased views get destroyed.  

We know the words spoken in a sealing ceremony.
If they were given by revelation from God we know enough to know that there are sealings for husbands and wives and sealings for children and parents and they are not the same.
If they didn't come from God then why are we bothering with them.

[thesometimesaint]

16 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I've heard this too, but wonder how it makes sense.  How will sealings be different?  We will be joined or bound together with both.  Do you think we will "live" with our spouse or always be with them, but not with the others we're sealed to?

I honestly think all of that gets very jumbled and confusing.  If we're all going to be sealed, how will some sealings look or actually be different?

ETA:. Maybe with creative powers for some sealings and not others?

We started in one family and will become one family again.

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's a dead piece of paper if either spouse refuses to ever repent of their sins and honor their covenants....

Did you read Maestrophil's post right above yours?  That describes the emotional damage that can happen.  

To many, it's not just "a dead piece of paper".  I think it's odd you can describe it that way actually with what is taught about sealings and repentance, etc.

Edited May 3, 2017 by JulieM

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Did you read Maestrophil's post right above yours?  That describes the emotional damage that can happen.  

To many, it's not just "a dead piece of paper".  I think it's odd you can describe it that way actually with what is taught about sealings and repentance, etc.

Brigham Young described it that way.
Covenants trump paper.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's a dead piece of paper if either spouse refuses to ever repent of their sins and honor their covenants.... 

Because repentance is a real thing.  Yes, you may not want to be married to some abusive/cheating/sinful person.  But what if that person totally repents, is reborn, and is totally Christ-like?  

The idea that a piece of paper can cancel a covenant sealed in the eternities by priesthood keys, especially when both husband and wife didn't break the covenant is a strange one.
But I do still think agency will play a part too.
Personally, I'd be concerned that I'd be allowed to back out of my marriage covenant but not enter another and lose that blessing.  God will not be mocked.

[Maestrophil]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Did you read Maestrophil's post right above yours?  That describes the emotional damage that can happen.  

To many, it's not just "a dead piece of paper".  I think it's odd you can describe it that way actually with what is taught about sealings and repentance, etc.

I guess some people might be bigger people than I am and can handle such a thing better.  I felt very similar to what I would feel if someone asked me to keep a portrait of my ex-wife on my wall.  I would not want the attachment/reminder for me, and I would never want my poor wife to have to live with that reminder daily either.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I've heard this too, but wonder how it makes sense.  How will sealings be different?  We will be joined or bound together with both.  Do you think we will "live" with our spouse or always be with them, but not with the others we're sealed to?

I honestly think all of that gets very jumbled and confusing.  If we're all going to be sealed, how will some sealings look or actually be different?

I think sealings is another of those topics that has been surrounded by justifications, reasons, and rationalizations for lack of hard information. That we have to fall back on "it will all work out" as the ultimate explanation demonstrates we have little to go on and can't explain away the inequities. 

IMHO, the only thing that holds together our current theories is the sexual reproduction aspect...and sex as the defining characteristic of sealings. (Which becomes really confusing when such a big deal is being made that sex was not an element of plural sealings. Yet again, more rationalizations that create bigger problems down the road.) Once that is removed and replaced with biblical charity, where there aren't favorites, we become partners in creation. But where we see limited exclusive families, God's version is a huge inclusive heavenly family.  Creation is what gods do. Don't create, don't need to be a god. 

Have you ever tried to imagine a heaven where God is in an exclusive little family where he loves and favors his wife and one child  more than anyone else in creation? It doesn't work, does it. Yet we seem to believe that without ever thinking it through to its logical ending, exaltation is just another place where people are not equally loved and valued.