My modern reflection on the great and spacious building

[SteveO]

48 minutes ago, california boy said:

I actually  think you missed the point.  Things are not all black and white.  Do you need an apostle to tell you how to think about every single issue?  Do apostles do all the thinking for you?  Of course not.  Yet, that is the answer you gave to my question.  

So let't get off the eggs.  Do you think that decisions people make may be as varied as the questions they deal with?  Would one person's yes on an issue be another person's no on that same issue?  Is an answer from an apostle the answer for everyone on every issue?  Can the Spirit tell one person that something is the best route to take and another person the exact opposite?  

Life is not black or white.  Despite Lloyds wanting to portray the world into two groups.  Several have asked, who are the people in the large and spacious building.  Do you have an answer to that question?  Really what I would like to discuss is what this dream is about.  Who are included in the good group.  And who are included in the bad group.  Where do the majority of people in the world fit in this dream? 

I actually agree with you, most everything is terribly grey--and hence the need for apostles to clarify.

I thought up until a number of years ago, that The Proclamation kind of went overkill on its emphasis on gender.  And now I can see why...just ask anyone today the rather "black and white" question of what their gender is--and you'll end up with a massive grey area with their responses.  It was something I had assumed was a silly social justice warrior phase, and now its turned into something that is harming and confusing a lot of people--particularly young and impressionable minds.

Pornography is another thing.  Its garbage that's marketed as "harmless" and "entertaining".  And yet I read an article just the other day (sorry, I can't find the article) about how young, healthy, twenty something year old men are increasingly not interested in sexual relationships with the opposite sex.  They're content with obtaining fulfillment through pornography.  Anything that can do that is a poison of the worst kind--and yet it is constantly pushed on us and church leadership are decried as obsessed with sex when they speak out against it.

There's so many other things that are new and untried.

Millennials I think are unfairly characterized as lazy, unmotivated, entitled, etc.  They're the guinea pigs in a number of ways.  All these new, untested social experiments, and I don't think they are having a particularly positive effect overall.  There are increasingly high numbers of unhappy people.  And I think it stems a lot from the fact that there IS a lot of grey area.  And there's a big mist of darkness that makes it hard to know where to go.  And there's people in a big spacious building pointing fingers mocking...And then there's the iron rod--the word of God, and His representatives here on earth to help us navigate through it all.    

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by SteveO

[MormonVideoGame]

On 4/20/2017 at 1:21 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Ergo, those who contend against the united word of the apostles of Christ place themselves in the unhappy category of those represented in Lehi's dream as the multitude who inhabit the great and spacious building, the "pride of the world," as it were, who mock and scoff at those who are pressing forward to partake of the fruit of the tree of life.

The reality is that Atheism is more persecuted (per capita ) than Christianity.   In many countries Atheists get executed.  In the US the Atheists can't win elections There are thousands of books and websites that mock Atheism. Most Americans think Atheists are evil. Our Christian government doesn't like secular ideas that contradicts the Bible. For example, in many states adult clubs can't be in a city. 

The court in Nashville, Tennessee didn't allow a private adult club (private property) to open, not even when the owner promised the club would only operate Friday and Saturday nights. He also promised that the exterior of the club's building would have nothing to suggest it is an adult club. From the outside it looks like an office building. However, courts sided with religions that didn't want the club anywhere near.  See report.

So there is severe persecution on secular practices and ideas that contradict the Holy Bible.

Private property owners don't have freedom, religions do.  

Remember the Oregon Bakery? 

Edited April 22, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

The reality is that Atheism is more persecuted (per capita ) than Christianity.   In many countries Atheists get executed.  In the US the Atheists can't win elections There are thousands of books and websites that mock Atheism. Most Americans think Atheists are evil. Our Christian government doesn't like secular ideas that contradicts the Bible. For example, in many states adult clubs can't be in a city. 

The court in Nashville, Tennessee didn't allow a private adult club (private property) to open, not even when the owner promised the club would only operate Friday and Saturday nights. He also promised that the exterior of the club's building would have nothing to suggest it is an adult club. From the outside it loos like an office building. However, courts sided with religions that didn't want the club anywhere near. 

So there is severe persecution on secular practices and ideas that contradict the Holy Bible.

Private property owners don't have freedom, religions the case  See report. 

Remember the Oregon Bakery? 

Do you seriously think only Christians don't want "adult clubs" that exploit women trashing up their cities? Or are you saying judges were scofflaws? What is your point aside from reinforcing the idea that atheists are morally deficient?

[MormonVideoGame]

31 minutes ago, juliann said:

Do you seriously think only Christians don't want "adult clubs" that exploit women trashing up their cities? 

Prostitution of any kind is not allowed in adult clubs, please do some research and less assumptions. Private adult clubs are not brothels or businesses. Private adult clubs are mostly for married couples. 

I mean where is the religious freedom? So pretty much only religions should have freedom? 

31 minutes ago, juliann said:

 What is your point aside from reinforcing the idea that atheists are morally deficient?

CFR! 

My point is that Atheists are more mocked and persecuted than Christians. 

and that secular ideas that contradict the Bible are not tolerated in the US. 

You just reinforced the point, and I am not an Atheist bytheway. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

So when a vegan chooses to not eat eggs, is he living a higher law or is he rejecting what God clearly ment to nourish man.  

What one sees as an enrichment in their lives another condemns it as garbage   Your story might not be as black and white as you present it

 I don't think a vegan would appreciate you using them as an analogy in this case given they don't refrain from eating eggs and other animal products because it is garbage.  Many view it as appreciating the sacredness of the potential life it could have become or was as well as the inhumanity to treat animals as only having value as food for humans.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

The depiction is of the wicked doing so, and living in Atlanta, no one could mistake the Church office building as a High Rise, nor any other SLC building. Also the men who occupy that building, are good and righteous men and women. Also, they are all believers and would not brave the river risking death to mock others. The dream is working out fine, it seems to me you are mocking them for not seeing the way things as you do. I have come to expect better from your posts, I am sorry to read your comment. More and more, I am seeing that, you and others who are Gay, want us to see your side of issues that matter to you, and will never understand our views. This saddens me. 

Bill you missed my point entirely.  I certainly DO NOT think that the leaders of the church are evil and mocking good.  My feelings about church leaders is very similar to yours.  It saddens me that you would jump to that conclusion just because I am gay.  

This was the point of my post.  You CAN NOT judge someone based how how tall their building is and what floor they reside on or how wealthy they are.

Let me give you an example.  I worked for a foundation called the James Irving Foundation.  You can Google them to see who they are and what they do.  Basically it is a foundation set up by James Irving.  They give away literally millions of dollars each year to help community organizations in various fields as seed money to launch programs that enrich the lives of others.  They have amazing offices in a high-rise in San Francisco, at near the top of the building overlooking the bay.  In your evaluation that you presented, should we automatically classify them as mockers and belittling righteous people.  Of course not.  I personally take offense of your suggestion that the higher up in a building you get, the more they fit Nephi's description of the people in the great and spacious building.  This is what you said about those at the top of the building and those in big mansions.

Quote

We were allowed (as we would often have to crawl under houses) to wear jeans. It was not uncommon to hear a remark, "they let you dress this way to come into homes like ours". The few who would offer coffee...when I decline, and asked why...when I told them I would offended be laughed  to scorn. As for their views of religion of any kind, it was nothing of contempt.

While that may very well have been true about the people you interacted with, there is absolutely NO WAY you could even suggest that people that are on the top floors of buildings act that way.  

Should I be closing my post by saying that what saddens me is members of the church would be so judgmental about people that work in high office buildings and big mansions?  Because that is what your post was about.  

Perhaps you are right about this part.  I have had a lot of unjustified condemnation of a lot of members of the church simply because I am gay.  I try to point out that we should not judge others simply because they are gay. Or simply because they are rich.  Or even because they may have faults, or that they say unkind things.  You  instantly became so defensive when I pointed out that church leaders are in a high-rise, that you wrote this.

Quote

More and more, I am seeing that, you and others who are Gay, want us to see your side of issues that matter to you, and will never understand our views. This saddens me. 

Is that really a fair comment to make?  Re read my post.  I NEVER said church leaders are evil or even implied that.  In fact what I was pointing out is that because they are good, and because they work in a high office building, your judgement of tying people that mistreated you to a high-rise was wrong. AND even if I was offensive to you, are you really going to now condemn EVERY gay person for my actions?  Should I now assume that every Mormon from Atlanta doesn't understand my view?

Edited April 22, 2017 by california boy

[california boy]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

I actually agree with you, most everything is terribly grey--and hence the need for apostles to clarify.

I thought up until a number of years ago, that The Proclamation kind of went overkill on its emphasis on gender.  And now I can see why...just ask anyone today the rather "black and white" question of what their gender is--and you'll end up with a massive grey area with their responses.  It was something I had assumed was a silly social justice warrior phase, and now its turned into something that is harming and confusing a lot of people--particularly young and impressionable minds.

Pornography is another thing.  Its garbage that's marketed as "harmless" and "entertaining".  And yet I read an article just the other day (sorry, I can't find the article) about how young, healthy, twenty something year old men are increasingly not interested in sexual relationships with the opposite sex.  They're content with obtaining fulfillment through pornography.  Anything that can do that is a poison of the worst kind--and yet it is constantly pushed on us and church leadership are decried as obsessed with sex when they speak out against it.

There's so many other things that are new and untried.

Millennials I think are unfairly characterized as lazy, unmotivated, entitled, etc.  They're the guinea pigs in a number of ways.  All these new, untested social experiments, and I don't think they are having a particularly positive effect overall.  There are increasingly high numbers of unhappy people.  And I think it stems a lot from the fact that there IS a lot of grey area.  And there's a big mist of darkness that makes it hard to know where to go.  And there's people in a big spacious building pointing fingers mocking...And then there's the iron rod--the word of God, and His representatives here on earth to help us navigate through it all.    

 

Nice to know that we both don't think everything is black and white.  I also noticed that you didn't answer these questions that others have asked.  

Quote

Several have asked, who are the people in the large and spacious building.  Do you have an answer to that question?  Really what I would like to discuss is what this dream is about.  Who are included in the good group.  And who are included in the bad group.  Where do the majority of people in the world fit in this dream?

Is the dream fulfillment of prophecy as Scott has claimed?  If so, how?

[california boy]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I don't think a vegan would appreciate you using them as an analogy in this case given they don't refrain from eating eggs and other animal products because it is garbage.  Many view it as appreciating the sacredness of the potential life it could have become or was as well as the inhumanity to treat animals as only having value as food for humans.

Of course, I agree,  I was just trying to relate to the example given me.  

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Nice to know that we both don't think everything is black and white.  I also noticed that you didn't answer these questions that others have asked.  

Is the dream fulfillment of prophecy as Scott has claimed?  If so, how?

I feel I answers that question to the best of my ability in my first post I made on this thread.  I don't think the great and spacious building comprises specific individuals, but rather what I described as "The Spirit of the Age".  It's an attitude, a prevailing consensus, etc.  I've always imagined the people who join those in the great and spacious building as blending in and fading away into obscurity--losing all semblance of individuality.

Honestly, I think just about everyone are represented by the people making their way to the tree of life--maybe not always in the best way--but I always think the end goal is shared among all of them.

[california boy]

I am beginning to believe that the point of Lehi's dream was to give Mormons the excuse to judge anyone who was not like them.    It is a dream about us vs them.  And those that follow the Lamb of God are victims of being mocked and scorned by the rest of the world.  According to the dream, the number of good people in the world are few.  The number of evil people mocking us is everyone else.  Can Mormons really not see that there are  millions in the world that are good and kind and loving and trying to do the best they can to live good lives that are not followers of the Lamb of God? 

[california boy]

7 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I feel I answers that question to the best of my ability in my first post I made on this thread.  I don't think the great and spacious building comprises specific individuals, but rather what I described as "The Spirit of the Age".  It's an attitude, a prevailing consensus, etc.  I've always imagined the people who join those in the great and spacious building as blending in and fading away into obscurity--losing all semblance of individuality.

Honestly, I think just about everyone are represented by the people making their way to the tree of life--maybe not always in the best way--but I always think the end goal is shared among all of them.

Well then, what is "the Spirit of the Age"?  Anyone who doesn't think like a Mormon?

[SteveO]

6 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well then, what is "the Spirit of the Age"?  Anyone who doesn't think like a Mormon?

I.......explained that in my first post.  It's what causes the "grey" in the world, and obscures "good and evil" by asking what the difference is between the two.

Btw, this is just the gospel according to SteveO, I don't claim to speak for everyone.  

Edited April 22, 2017 by SteveO

[california boy]

18 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I.......explained that in my first post.  It's what causes the "grey" in the world, and obscures "good and evil" by asking what the difference is between the two.

Btw, this is just the gospel according to SteveO, I don't claim to speak for everyone.  

That is ok.  I am interested in the gospel according to SteveO.  Do you think the world should be black and white?  Who do  you think causes the grey in the world?  Do you think God intended choices in life should be back and white?

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

That is ok.  I am interested in the gospel according to SteveO.  Do you think the world should be black and white?  Who do  you think causes the grey in the world?  Do you think God intended choices in life should be back and white?

It depends what day you ask me.  I go back and forth.

In Afghanistan, I did things I would never, ever, do in civilian life--but I don't regret them even now because at the time, I felt the situation warranted--or even excused my actions.

Does it mean there wasn't a black and white choice?  I believe there could've been one.  But we believe we are in a fallen state.  We have weaknesses and our perception is limited.  We see through a glass darkly, and I believe that is applied to every aspect of life.  Christ showed us that it's possible to make all the right choices, so it is what is being asked of us--but I don't think it's expected.  Hence a the need for a Savior.  I think the "pride of the world" is the mentality that there are no right choices, that we cannot humble ourselves to admit that we made mistakes and that there was a better way.  I know some of the choices I made back in my army days weren't great choices, and I should've been better.  But I don't believe I would do it differently if I could go back and change it?  Maybe that's my pride...

I think I know what you're trying to get at--do I think the church's stance on SSM is too "black and white"?  Eh...I dunno.  I think you have to have standards in place for everything.  If you don't, how do you gauge the progress???  As long as you're progressing somewhere--and never standing still--I think it's enough though.

Edited April 22, 2017 by SteveO

[Guest]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Bill you missed my point entirely.  I certainly DO NOT think that the leaders of the church are evil and mocking good.  My feelings about church leaders is very similar to yours.  It saddens me that you would jump to that conclusion just because I am gay.  

This was the point of my post.  You CAN NOT judge someone based how how tall their building is and what floor they reside on or how wealthy they are.

Let me give you an example.  I worked for a foundation called the James Irving Foundation.  You can Google them to see who they are and what they do.  Basically it is a foundation set up by James Irving.  They give away literally millions of dollars each year to help community organizations in various fields as seed money to launch programs that enrich the lives of others.  They have amazing offices in a high-rise in San Francisco, at near the top of the building overlooking the bay.  In your evaluation that you presented, should we automatically classify them as mockers and belittling righteous people.  Of course not.  I personally take offense of your suggestion that the higher up in a building you get, the more they fit Nephi's description of the people in the great and spacious building.  This is what you said about those at the top of the building and those in big mansions.

While that may very well have been true about the people you interacted with, there is absolutely NO WAY you could even suggest that people that are on the top floors of buildings act that way.  

Should I be closing my post by saying that what saddens me is members of the church would be so judgmental about people that work in high office buildings and big mansions?  Because that is what your post was about.  

CA, you know me and that I have a Gay child and would do nothing to hurt any Gay person or act out of malice. I was only addressing my experiences with so many who act badly and scorn. The only person in a High Ruse condo who was scornful (well a few more as noted in my post) and who pointed the "finger of scorn", at myself was Elton John in his 38th floor condo (that because of the photos from the Mapplethorp photos and my displease of the crucifix photo in a bottle of urine). In fact, the only ones allowed to do his remodels, were contractors who would "at least" admit not to be Evangelicals, and who were required to hire (each of the five types of tradespeople meaning one for each five), at least one "male Gay employee, who was not required to work, but to be on site when that company was there. Other than that, it was not my purpose to imply otherwise. But you only gave the example of the Church headquarters...so please forgive me of making that connection. Had you mentioned other "High Rises", then I would have not made that assumption. I have always been kind and courteous to you and others that are Gay on this website, despite our differences on matters concerning Church doctrine and Gay marriage. It is not in my nature to be unkind to you or any others here, or elsewhere. But, I am human and flawed as all men and women are, but I do try my best. I would hate, no mourn, if that is ever the impression that I leave with anyone...I mean who knows, every post might be our last as we are not guaranteed tomorrow. Just a few weeks ago I was told by my doctor that my A1C test (hope I named ithat correctly) a test done every 3 to 6 months for diabities was the worst reading that my Doctor, (in his 40 years of practice) had never seen. He went on to say that he has no idea how I was alive or walking...although I have to walk with a cane and helped out of a cars. So most of all I do not want to seem insensitive or unkind, as I have upcoming surgeries (yes plural) and do not want to meet my maker with that added to (whatever the equal of A1C would be) my soul. I only responded to the one example you gave me, the Church headquarters", which of course would include those who work in it. 

So forgive me if I misread the content of your response, and knowing how hurt you and others feel about Church teachings concerning, Homosexuality and Gay Marriage. It was never in my nature to offend, nor in my nature...although I often fail to be always what God wants for me. So God bless, and you have been in my prayers more than once, if that matters. 

[Calm]

A1C is correct.  Good luck on getting that down.  If you can, you will probably feel much better.  My daughter is miserable when her sugars are high, I am grateful she has learned to control them (as measured by an A1C below 7).

It must be very scary to be told it is so high.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, Paloma said:

I remember a conversation that I, a non-LDS Christian had with LDS friends who were on their mission.

When the subject of "the great and spacious building" came up (and who was/would be in that building), we all, after expressing various thoughts, agreed on one guiding truth.  I believe that it was one of the missionaries who introduced it.  "It" being the parable of the sheep and the goats.  

It was so good to agree that judgement belongs to the Lord, and not to us.  And that the core truth and requirement for living eternally with God is based on how we treat Jesus (knowingly or unknowingly), as in Matthew 25: 31-46

³¹ “But when the Son of Man^[a] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. ³² All the nations^[b] will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. ³⁶ I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

³⁷ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?³⁹ When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

⁴⁰ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,^[c] you were doing it to me!’

⁴¹ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.^[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. ⁴³ I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

⁴⁴ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

⁴⁵ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

⁴⁶ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

That was a remarkable day and a beautiful conversation!

 

 

Thanks for this.

The parable of the sheep and goats is similar to the "two churches only" paradigm taught in the Book of Mormon. Those who view it as literally referring to two formal organizations or who think it denotes a dichotomy between "Mormons and everybody else" or see it as "us vs. them" are misguided in their mindset. Any entity that promulgates teachings consistent with Christ and His gospel, to the extent that it does, belongs in a figurative sense to the church of the Lamb. Any entity that contends against Christ or His apostles or His teachings, to the extent that it does, belongs to the church of the devil. So it's a matter of truth vs. error, right vs. wrong, the sheep and the goats.

Kudos to you for grasping the concept better than some professed Mormons -- or former Mormons -- do.

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, juliann said:

Do you seriously think only Christians don't want "adult clubs" that exploit women trashing up their cities? Or are you saying judges were scofflaws? What is your point aside from reinforcing the idea that atheists are morally deficient?

Atheists are not all morally deficient. Lumping people like that together is almost as bad as someone who lumps all the LDS together in a negative light.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

I am beginning to believe that the point of Lehi's dream was to give Mormons the excuse to judge anyone who was not like them.    It is a dream about us vs them.  And those that follow the Lamb of God are victims of being mocked and scorned by the rest of the world.  According to the dream, the number of good people in the world are few.  The number of evil people mocking us is everyone else.  Can Mormons really not see that there are  millions in the world that are good and kind and loving and trying to do the best they can to live good lives that are not followers of the Lamb of God? 

You lack understanding.

Please see my most recent post wherein I respond to Paloma. (Just scroll up two posts above this one).

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[juliann]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Atheists are not all morally deficient. Lumping people like that together is almost as bad as someone who lumps all the LDS together in a negative light.

Do.you ever read what you take pot shots at?

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

Do.you ever read what you take pot shots at?

I did read that wrong.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

The reality is that Atheism is more persecuted (per capita ) than Christianity.   In many countries Atheists get executed.  In the US the Atheists can't win elections There are thousands of books and websites that mock Atheism. Most Americans think Atheists are evil. Our Christian government doesn't like secular ideas that contradicts the Bible. For example, in many states adult clubs can't be in a city. 

The court in Nashville, Tennessee didn't allow a private adult club (private property) to open, not even when the owner promised the club would only operate Friday and Saturday nights. He also promised that the exterior of the club's building would have nothing to suggest it is an adult club. From the outside it looks like an office building. However, courts sided with religions that didn't want the club anywhere near.  See report.

So there is severe persecution on secular practices and ideas that contradict the Holy Bible.

Private property owners don't have freedom, religions do.  

Remember the Oregon Bakery? 

I know atheists who dislike "adult" businesses and clubs. Why do you tie the two together.

Still have not figured out why we call them adult. There are few things more juvenile then a strip club.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Prostitution of any kind is not allowed in adult clubs, please do some research and less assumptions. Private adult clubs are not brothels or businesses. Private adult clubs are mostly for married couples. 

I mean where is the religious freedom? So pretty much only religions should have freedom? 

CFR! 

My point is that Atheists are more mocked and persecuted than Christians. 

and that secular ideas that contradict the Bible are not tolerated in the US. 

You just reinforced the point, and I am not an Atheist bytheway. 

Adult clubs are mostly for married couples? Bwahahahahahahahaha!

Congratulations on how persecuted you are because your religious freedom is being violated and your right to worship at sex clubs is not being respected. We all join you in solidarity for this First Amendment issue. /sarcasm

[california boy]

7 hours ago, SteveO said:

It depends what day you ask me.  I go back and forth.

In Afghanistan, I did things I would never, ever, do in civilian life--but I don't regret them even now because at the time, I felt the situation warranted--or even excused my actions.

Does it mean there wasn't a black and white choice?  I believe there could've been one.  But we believe we are in a fallen state.  We have weaknesses and our perception is limited.  We see through a glass darkly, and I believe that is applied to every aspect of life.  Christ showed us that it's possible to make all the right choices, so it is what is being asked of us--but I don't think it's expected.  Hence a the need for a Savior.  I think the "pride of the world" is the mentality that there are no right choices, that we cannot humble ourselves to admit that we made mistakes and that there was a better way.  I know some of the choices I made back in my army days weren't great choices, and I should've been better.  But I don't believe I would do it differently if I could go back and change it?  Maybe that's my pride...

I think I know what you're trying to get at--do I think the church's stance on SSM is too "black and white"?  Eh...I dunno.  I think you have to have standards in place for everything.  If you don't, how do you gauge the progress???  As long as you're progressing somewhere--and never standing still--I think it's enough though.

Thanks for your answer.  Actually I was not thinking about the church's stance on SSM.  Though in all fairness, I do talk a lot about that issue, so it is not an unfair leap to make.  Mostly I was trying to understand what you met by "the Spirit of the Age" and where it came from.  I think you explained it better now.  I like this part of your explanation.

Quote

 If you don't, how do you gauge the progress???  As long as you're progressing somewhere--and never standing still--I think it's enough though.

I don't think anyone makes every choice the right choice.  We have to look at our lives over time.  And like you, I think that if you can look back and feel that you are making progress in the right direction then we are on the path that Christ wants us to follow.  

Now a little of gospel according to California Boy.  It is hard for me to see a black and white world, spacious building va mockers,  wheat vs tares, us vs them.  People are more complicated than that for me.  I am more complicated than that.  In any given day, I may make both right choices and wrong choices.  So on that day, was I a wheat or a tare?  But over time, I can see that I am making progress.  I am not a wheat yet.  

I think I must have a wonderful life.  I see a lot of good things happening in the world.  I see a lot of good people in the world.  In fact, I see good winning against evil.  I think people are more kind to others and have more empathy, more love, more understanding than any time in the history of the earth.  I am always amazed at when some tragedy takes place, someone sets up a fund and thousands contribute to help the person in need.  I see people finding good things in communities to support and not just write a check, but get right in there and help with their own hands to make a community better.  I see services provided to the poor and those that have made bad choices not only by the city and government, but by people willing to care.  To tie this back to the OP, I see more goodness in the world than evil.  I see those that are trying their best to follow the Lamb of God more than those that are in the tall and spacious building mocking those below.  Yes there is evil in the world today.  There always has been. But walk down the street. How many people do you see are trying to make the right choices. Just my thoughts.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

CA, you know me and that I have a Gay child and would do nothing to hurt any Gay person or act out of malice. I was only addressing my experiences with so many who act badly and scorn. The only person in a High Ruse condo who was scornful (well a few more as noted in my post) and who pointed the "finger of scorn", at myself was Elton John in his 38th floor condo (that because of the photos from the Mapplethorp photos and my displease of the crucifix photo in a bottle of urine). In fact, the only ones allowed to do his remodels, were contractors who would "at least" admit not to be Evangelicals, and who were required to hire (each of the five types of tradespeople meaning one for each five), at least one "male Gay employee, who was not required to work, but to be on site when that company was there. Other than that, it was not my purpose to imply otherwise. But you only gave the example of the Church headquarters...so please forgive me of making that connection. Had you mentioned other "High Rises", then I would have not made that assumption. I have always been kind and courteous to you and others that are Gay on this website, despite our differences on matters concerning Church doctrine and Gay marriage. It is not in my nature to be unkind to you or any others here, or elsewhere. But, I am human and flawed as all men and women are, but I do try my best. I would hate, no mourn, if that is ever the impression that I leave with anyone...I mean who knows, every post might be our last as we are not guaranteed tomorrow. Just a few weeks ago I was told by my doctor that my A1C test (hope I named ithat correctly) a test done every 3 to 6 months for diabities was the worst reading that my Doctor, (in his 40 years of practice) had never seen. He went on to say that he has no idea how I was alive or walking...although I have to walk with a cane and helped out of a cars. So most of all I do not want to seem insensitive or unkind, as I have upcoming surgeries (yes plural) and do not want to meet my maker with that added to (whatever the equal of A1C would be) my soul. I only responded to the one example you gave me, the Church headquarters", which of course would include those who work in it. 

So forgive me if I misread the content of your response, and knowing how hurt you and others feel about Church teachings concerning, Homosexuality and Gay Marriage. It was never in my nature to offend, nor in my nature...although I often fail to be always what God wants for me. So God bless, and you have been in my prayers more than once, if that matters. 

Bill you have always been kind and courteous to me.  I think of you as a big teddy bear on this board.  You are more about reaching your arms around someone and giving them a hug.  Sometimes we need that.  I guess that is why I really did not want you to get the wrong impression of what I wrote.  I do think highly of the church leaders.  I think they are good men trying their very best to show people a better way of life.  I don't think they always get things right.  And I do think they seem to have a blind spot when it comes to those of us that are gay.  But you have to look at the whole picture like I was talking about in my previous post.  

I am sorry you had such a bad experience with Elton Jon.  I think he has not had a good experience with people who are religious.  There is probably a lot of anger there.  Yeah, I can relate a little to those feelings.  The crucifix in urine may very well represent his experience with religion.  He needs more contact with people like you to show him a different side of religion that he may not have seen or felt before.  Where religion failed him, he found another way to serve and to help those that are less fortunate.  He has given countless house and millions of dollars to help those that were shunned by religion.  I hope at some point you can forgive him for his unkindness to you, and see the good in him as well.

And lastly I want to say how sorry I am to hear about your health.  Take care of yourself.  Get better.  We need you here.  Your family needs you.  So many love you.