Guest Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 4 hours ago, california boy said: Bill you have always been kind and courteous to me. I think of you as a big teddy bear on this board. You are more about reaching your arms around someone and giving them a hug. Sometimes we need that. I guess that is why I really did not want you to get the wrong impression of what I wrote. I do think highly of the church leaders. I think they are good men trying their very best to show people a better way of life. I don't think they always get things right. And I do think they seem to have a blind spot when it comes to those of us that are gay. But you have to look at the whole picture like I was talking about in my previous post. I am sorry you had such a bad experience with Elton Jon. I think he has not had a good experience with people who are religious. There is probably a lot of anger there. Yeah, I can relate a little to those feelings. The crucifix in urine may very well represent his experience with religion. He needs more contact with people like you to show him a different side of religion that he may not have seen or felt before. Where religion failed him, he found another way to serve and to help those that are less fortunate. He has given countless house and millions of dollars to help those that were shunned by religion. I hope at some point you can forgive him for his unkindness to you, and see the good in him as well. And lastly I want to say how sorry I am to hear about your health. Take care of yourself. Get better. We need you here. Your family needs you. So many love you. In Elton John's defense that was when he had a serious problem with drugs. From what I know now he is a much more polite man.
SteveO Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 7 hours ago, california boy said: I think I must have a wonderful life. I see a lot of good things happening in the world. I see a lot of good people in the world. In fact, I see good winning against evil. I think people are more kind to others and have more empathy, more love, more understanding than any time in the history of the earth. I am always amazed at when some tragedy takes place, someone sets up a fund and thousands contribute to help the person in need. I see people finding good things in communities to support and not just write a check, but get right in there and help with their own hands to make a community better. I see services provided to the poor and those that have made bad choices not only by the city and government, but by people willing to care. To tie this back to the OP, I see more goodness in the world than evil. I see those that are trying their best to follow the Lamb of God more than those that are in the tall and spacious building mocking those below. Yes there is evil in the world today. There always has been. But walk down the street. How many people do you see are trying to make the right choices. Just my thoughts. I think that's fine. I think the vast majority of the people on earth are just trying to do their best...but make no mistake, a small minority can cause a great deal of harm. Look at the heroin epidemic that is destroying families and lives. Are these drug users evil people? No. But you know who are? The people who bring in that garbage and selling it. When I was still in the army, I once had a briefing on the drug trade on the border. I won't go into detail, but trust me when I say, these guys make Al Queda look like Girl Scouts. It is absolutely evil stuff. And look at all the harm they are doing. I know people from high school who have died from OD's. Look at alcohol. Look at the money that is spent each year to deal with alcoholism, with social work. Look at the death and misery caused by drunk driving. Go to Latin America and see entire societies destroyed by alcoholism...and for what? Money? Look at what a small group of people is able to do. And those are just examples off the top of my head...I've said elsewhere that we are going to reap the whirlwind with internet pornography. So yes, I do believe that people are trying their best--but there are those who wish them harm, and have no problem destroying lives as long as it makes them money. I think it's appropriate that the people in the great and spacious building wear costly apparel. Again, I don't see them as individuals, I see them as an attitude. I see them causing "the grey". They market and sell their garbage as nourishment. And a lot of people who are trying their best, end up lost and wandering in forbidden paths. I wrote that in church on my phone, hope it makes sense. 2
california boy Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 5 hours ago, SteveO said: I think that's fine. I think the vast majority of the people on earth are just trying to do their best...but make no mistake, a small minority can cause a great deal of harm. Look at the heroin epidemic that is destroying families and lives. Are these drug users evil people? No. But you know who are? The people who bring in that garbage and selling it. When I was still in the army, I once had a briefing on the drug trade on the border. I won't go into detail, but trust me when I say, these guys make Al Queda look like Girl Scouts. It is absolutely evil stuff. And look at all the harm they are doing. I know people from high school who have died from OD's. Look at alcohol. Look at the money that is spent each year to deal with alcoholism, with social work. Look at the death and misery caused by drunk driving. Go to Latin America and see entire societies destroyed by alcoholism...and for what? Money? Look at what a small group of people is able to do. And those are just examples off the top of my head...I've said elsewhere that we are going to reap the whirlwind with internet pornography. So yes, I do believe that people are trying their best--but there are those who wish them harm, and have no problem destroying lives as long as it makes them money. I think it's appropriate that the people in the great and spacious building wear costly apparel. Again, I don't see them as individuals, I see them as an attitude. I see them causing "the grey". They market and sell their garbage as nourishment. And a lot of people who are trying their best, end up lost and wandering in forbidden paths. I wrote that in church on my phone, hope it makes sense. It would be hard for anyone to disagree what what you write. Certainly evil does exist in this world. To get back to the OP. If we agree that for the most part, people are good and trying to live lives of compassion and love, how does that fit with the vision where the followers of the church of the lamb is small and evil is huge?
Scott Lloyd Posted April 23, 2017 Author Posted April 23, 2017 21 minutes ago, california boy said: It would be hard for anyone to disagree what what you write. Certainly evil does exist in this world. To get back to the OP. If we agree that for the most part, people are good and trying to live lives of compassion and love, how does that fit with the vision where the followers of the church of the lamb is small and evil is huge? Did you not see my response to you, we've one where I referred you to what I said in my post to Poloma? In referring to "the OP" are misconstruing and misvharacterization get what I said. Hence my observation that you lack understanding. Do you have me on "ignore" or something?
CV75 Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, california boy said: It would be hard for anyone to disagree what what you write. Certainly evil does exist in this world. To get back to the OP. If we agree that for the most part, people are good and trying to live lives of compassion and love, how does that fit with the vision where the followers of the church of the lamb is small and evil is huge? The angel teaches that there are two churches only, but not that everyone belongs to only one of the other. As he interprets the dream for Nephi, it is evident that not everyone belongs to a church (dominion/assembly/congregation/organization), and that the great and spacious building is not an organization, but only a symbol for the pride of the world. All people are basically good and trying to live lives of compassion and love; they all star on the path. But their commitment is manifest by degrees and can become misguided, resulting in degrees of active membership in the two churches, or no membership at all. The saints are those who manifest full membership in the church of the Lamb by keeping the revealed and restored covenants, and these are indeed relatively few in number in comparison to either those in the great and spacious building, the church of the devil, or who wander off without belonging to either. Each person chooses to follow the power of the lamb of God, the wickedness and abominations of the church of the devil, or whatever degree of pride / shame they allow to influence and motivate their choices. As explained earlier, this is how membership in the church of the devil outnumbers membership in the church of the Lamb, at least in this world. 2
Calm Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 Agree with this save to qualify as "almost all people are basically good". 1
SteveO Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, CV75 said: The angel teaches that there are two churches only, but not that everyone belongs to only one of the other. As he interprets the dream for Nephi, it is evident that not everyone belongs to a church (dominion/assembly/congregation/organization), and that the great and spacious building is not an organization, but only a symbol for the pride of the world. All people are basically good and trying to live lives of compassion and love; they all star on the path. But their commitment is manifest by degrees and can become misguided, resulting in degrees of active membership in the two churches, or no membership at all. The saints are those who manifest full membership in the church of the Lamb by keeping the revealed and restored covenants, and these are indeed relatively few in number in comparison to either those in the great and spacious building, the church of the devil, or who wander off without belonging to either. Each person chooses to follow the power of the lamb of God, the wickedness and abominations of the church of the devil, or whatever degree of pride / shame they allow to influence and motivate their choices. As explained earlier, this is how membership in the church of the devil outnumbers membership in the church of the Lamb, at least in this world. I agree. I think the problem CB is having is maybe that "evil" is being applied to everyone who wanders off the straight and narrow. I don't think they are evil, but I think the things that have caused them to wander are evil. Maybe I'm going all over the place, the more I think about this...I can see CB's point of view but also yours. I'm just trying to reconcile both.
SteveO Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, Calm said: Agree with this save to qualify as "almost all people are basically good". You don't think so? Are you referring to the "natural man" that exists within everyone?
MormonVideoGame Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 On 4/20/2017 at 2:31 PM, Scott Lloyd said: I think there's a clear distinction in meaning between disagree and contend. 1. Why would a benevolent god care about what the vocal critics say? 2. Secular group practices that contradict the Holy Bible are more persecuted than religious practices. The reality in our country is that religions have the power, not secular groups that contradict the Bible. 3. There are not many critics of the church that are very influential. Everybody ignores them, haven't you been to general conference? 4. Mormon 8:31 gives a better description of the Great and Spacious building, "Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings"
Calm Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteveO said: You don't think so? Are you referring to the "natural man" that exists within everyone? No, I think there are people out there who actively choose evil, enjoy torturing and murdering others, etc. Nor do I believe it can be explained as environmental. There are just some very sick things out there that require 'creativity' and self motivation, not just repeating what has been observed. I don't believe there are a lot percentagewide, I really, really hope there are very few. Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm 1
CV75 Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 1 hour ago, SteveO said: I agree. I think the problem CB is having is maybe that "evil" is being applied to everyone who wanders off the straight and narrow. I don't think they are evil, but I think the things that have caused them to wander are evil. Maybe I'm going all over the place, the more I think about this...I can see CB's point of view but also yours. I'm just trying to reconcile both. When it comes to dealing with the negative in our lives or in the world, I think the reconciliation between the two points of view about the vision and the angel’s explanation hinges on whether one judges people or their deeds. We can avoid judging people by acknowledging and accentuating only their good deeds and minimizing the wicked, but this is not a realistic view and arguably isn’t intellectually (and in some cases, morally) honest. And we can avoid judging people in a better way, by having enough charity, integrity and Christlike discipline to acknowledge and address both their good and wicked deeds without condemning the person. The vision does not judge people, it just describes what we are doing in the world and the forces we choose to influence us accordingly. It doesn’t even get into our actual deeds, just our attitudes and motivations—it is all symbolic. It is not until Chapter 15:33-26 that the symbolism for the Lord’s judgement (not ours) of the filthy is put into context. I don’t see where anyone applies “evil” to describe everyone who wanders off the path to the tree of (eternal) life (the rod being the fulness of the Gospel), except california boy who just keeps pushing that idea: Posted yesterday at 04:09 AM Posted yesterday at 05:41 PM Posted yesterday at 06:02 PM Posted 15 hours ago Posted 1 hour ago So I think the reconciliation on that point is simple enough: use the scripture as it was written and intended. 1
William Jones Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: No, I think there are people out there who actively choose evil, enjoy torturing and murdering others, etc. Nor do I believe it can be explained as environmental. I don't believe there are a lot percentagewide, I really, really hope there are very few. I agree with you. There are horrible people out there for sure. It seems the safe route is to have a questioning and skeptical mind when it comes to people. You hope for the best, however, trust but verify at all times.
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