ksfisher Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: OP why did you steal my username? Theft is the sincerest form of flattery.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Human aid while a noble goal is just one part of the four fold mission of the Church. Still, Mormons give humanitarian aid all out of proportion to their numbers, moreso than any other religious organization per capita. And it is well-organized aid.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 7 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: .......................................... .....................at least 11 Billion, but I really have no idea. I understand the church is a worldwide church, but why does it need at least 11 Billion dollars for 30,016 congregations, 155 temples, and 418 missions? It can't be for human aid because that comes from Fast Offerings. There are also General and Ward missionary donations. Is the church planning to buy Missouri or something? or other big plans? Is the church preparing for the Apocalypse? or am I ignorant about something? 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Human aid while a noble goal is just one part of the four fold mission of the Church. Fast offerings are only for local assistance by bishops for their congregations. Worldwide humanitarian aid is completely separate, and the LDS humanitarian aid operations are the largest per capita of any religious organization in the world. They include vast sums of money distributed in cases of major disasters anywhere in the world and typically aid non-Mormons. Where the LDS Church has no on-the-ground organization, it will distribute its aid through competent and proven organizations such as Catholic Relief. It also supplies missionaries whose sole job is to render aid. Moreover, simply guessing at the amount of money taken in annually by the LDS Church is a very poor basis for making any sort of honest assessment. 2
thesometimesaint Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 Yes and no. Fast Offerings are now sent to Salt Lake and returned on the bases of need. So it is entirely possible for a member in Mexico to underwrite a member in the US.
stemelbow Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Fast offerings are only for local assistance by bishops for their congregations. Worldwide humanitarian aid is completely separate, and the LDS humanitarian aid operations are the largest per capita of any religious organization in the world. They include vast sums of money distributed in cases of major disasters anywhere in the world and typically aid non-Mormons. Where the LDS Church has no on-the-ground organization, it will distribute its aid through competent and proven organizations such as Catholic Relief. It also supplies missionaries whose sole job is to render aid. Moreover, simply guessing at the amount of money taken in annually by the LDS Church is a very poor basis for making any sort of honest assessment. Hi Robert. I find your statement that "LDS humanitarian aid operations are the largest per capita of any religious organization in the world". Where I can read more about that? That seems like quite a feat, if true. In the previous post you said, "Mormons give humanitarian aid all out of proportion to their numbers, moreso than any other religious organization per capita." I'm also eager to learn more about that too. THanks. 4
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, ksfisher said: I think the key words in the OP's tithing estimate formula were the last five. "...I really have no idea." You know, my estimate is consistent with other estimates, including an estimate by sociology professor Cragun. Not hard to image that 1.5 million Mormon adults give at least a total of 5,000 dollars of tithing. Where is the exaggeration? Of course no one knows because the information is not available. Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: You simply assume way too much. I told ksfisher, "my estimate is consistent with other estimates, including an estimate by sociology professor Cragun. Not hard to image that 1.5 million Mormon adults give at least a total of 5,000 dollars of tithing. Where is the exaggeration?" Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, JAHS said: Glassdoor says greater than 10,000: There are church employees all over the world. You only need like 45 million dollars to employ 10,000 with a good salary. Wendy's net income was 129.6 million USD in 2016, and it employs 37,000. Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
ksfisher Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: You only need like 45 million dollars to employ 10,000 with a good salary. Wendy's net income was 129.6 million USD in 2016, and it employs 37,000. You need to do some real research before you start throwing out numbers. If you have a 45 million dollar budget that would be $45,000 per employee. About $15,000 of that budget is going to be eaten up by benefits and taxes, leaving your employee with $30,000 in take home pay (before the employees taxes). If your trying to run a large organization and are only paying your employees an average of $30,000/yr you're going to be looking at a business with very high turnover as employees are constantly leaving for better paying positions. Your training budget is going to go through the roof and employee moral will plummet due to the constant turnover. Unless you're running a fast food joint (hence the comparison, I guess, to Wendy's) this would seem like a recipe for disaster. http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/28/smallbusiness/salary-benefits/ 2
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: Hi Robert. I find your statement that "LDS humanitarian aid operations are the largest per capita of any religious organization in the world". Where I can read more about that? That seems like quite a feat, if true. In the previous post you said, "Mormons give humanitarian aid all out of proportion to their numbers, moreso than any other religious organization per capita." I'm also eager to learn more about that too. THanks. I haven't updated my study since 2012: "LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures . However, the sources are readily available, and I'd like to see what current figures are.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You need to do some real research before you start throwing out numbers. If you have a 45 million dollar budget that would be $45,000 per employee. About $15,000 of that budget is going to be eaten up by benefits and taxes, leaving your employee with $30,000 in take home pay (before the employees taxes). If your trying to run a large organization and are only paying your employees an average of $30,000/yr you're going to be looking at a business with very high turnover as employees are constantly leaving for better paying positions. Half of all American workers make less than 30,000 http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/10/goodbye-middle-class-51-percent-of-all-american-workers-make-less-than-30000-dollars-a-year.html Utah is not the entire country. 30,000 a year is not a low wage job in most regions, a low wage job is a near minimum wage job. but fine, let's change it to 55 Million, that is about 50 wealthy wards. Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
ksfisher Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 1 minute ago, MormonVideoGame said: Half of all American workers make less than 30,000 http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/10/goodbye-middle-class-51-percent-of-all-american-workers-make-less-than-30000-dollars-a-year.html Utah is not the entire country. 30,000 a year is not a low wage job in most regions. You're making my point with your article. You cannot pay people $30,000/yr and not expect them to be looking elsewhere for work. Where did I, or anyone, imply that Utah was the entire country???????? And yes, $30,000/yr is a low wage.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You're making my point with your article. You cannot pay people $30,000/yr and not expect them to be looking elsewhere for work. It depends on the region, in 2015 most Americans didn't have a job that paid 30,000/yr or more. Let's change it to 60 million, which is at least 40,000/yr. Do most church jobs pay at least 40,000 a year? So 10,000 jobs, but what about the salary? Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
cinepro Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) On 3/22/2017 at 10:15 AM, MormonVideoGame said: I understand the church is a worldwide church, but why does it need at least 11 Billion dollars for 30,016 congregations, 155 temples, and 418 missions? It can't be for human aid because that comes from Fast Offerings. There are also General and Ward missionary donations. Is the church planning to buy Missouri or something? or other big plans? Is the church preparing for the Apocalypse? or am I ignorant about something? I think the simple answer (as others have tried to point out) is that you have probably vastly overestimated the income and vastly underestimated expenses. So ignorance probably is the best explanation. You might want to track down a copy of this article from 20 years ago. The numbers are probably out of date, but it will have good info on all the factors that need to be considered: Mormons, Inc. Quote The church's material triumphs rival even its evangelical advances. With unusual cooperation from the Latter-day Saints hierarchy (which provided some financial figures and a rare look at church businesses), TIME has been able to quantify the church's extraordinary financial vibrancy. Its current assets total a minimum of $30 billion. If it were a corporation, its estimated $5.9 billion in annual gross income would place it midway through the FORTUNE 500, a little below Union Carbide and the Paine Webber Group but bigger than Nike and the Gap. And as long as corporate rankings are being bandied about, the church would make any list of the most admired: for straight dealing, company spirit, contributions to charity (even the non-Mormon kind) and a fiscal probity among its powerful leaders that would satisfy any shareholder group, if there were one. Edited March 23, 2017 by cinepro 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, cinepro said: I think the simple answer (as others have tried to point out) is that you have probably vastly overestimated the income and vastly underestimated expenses. I have no idea about the expenses, but "sociology professor Cragun estimates that the LDS Church is likely worth $40 billion today and collects as much as $8 billion in tithing each year.". I estimated about 7 Billion from the USA. Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
JAHS Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: It depends on the region, in 2015 most Americans didn't have a job that paid 30,000/yr or more. Let's change it to 60 million, which is at least 40,000/yr. Do most church jobs pay at least 40,000 a year? So 10,000 jobs, but what about the salary? It's greater than 10,000 employees. Senior Software Engineer $113,500 Product manager $87,000 Intern hourly $17.90 Research consultant $63,587 Senior program manager $133,755 Facilities manager $75, 200 There's a long list.https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Salaries-E122747.htm The original point I was making is that it employs and pays thousands of people in more than 100 countries. That's a lot of tithing. 2
Tacenda Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 On 3/22/2017 at 0:25 PM, thesometimesaint said: Not so much. 383,000 acres vs 34 million acres https://www.dailydot.com/irl/mormon-church-gay-marriage-prop-8/ Well maybe it's the good land...good portion...get it. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JAHS said: It's greater than 10,000 employees. CFR 2 hours ago, JAHS said: The original point I was making is that it employs and pays thousands of people in more than 100 countries. That's a lot of tithing. and how many jobs outside the USA? especially in Latin America? With only 60 million dollars you can create 10,000 good paying jobs. 2 hours ago, JAHS said: Senior Software Engineer $113,500 Of course, but I don't think the church offers 10,000 senior software engineer jobs. How much does a Clerk,Sales for the church make? or a security guard? or a janitor? https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/clerk-sales-on-call-position-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-JV_KO0,28_KE29,76.htm?jl=2314706650 Edited March 24, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
The Nehor Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 You got us. We are building a secret complex under Adam-ondi-Ahman to outlive the nuclear apocalypse Trump is working on. 3
longview Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You got us. We are building a secret complex under Adam-ondi-Ahman to outlive the nuclear apocalypse Trump is working on. Actually, Obama is still holed up in D.C. working on his massive database of names and preparing his 'private army.' To quote: In July of 2008, presidential candidate Barack Hussein Obama stated that Americans could no longer “…continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” Then, in October of 2012, Barack Obama signed an Executive Order creating the “White House Homeland Security Partnership Council,” its ostensible purpose to “…advance the federal government’s use of local partnerships to address homeland-security challenges.” But the DHS was ALREADY working with local governments across the nation. Why would Obama intercede in this way? Because “he [wanted] to be able to dictate who gets to participate in these local partnerships – and they don’t have to be local law enforcement or local government officials to do so. These partnerships will be with ‘the private sector, nongovernmental organizations, foundations and community-based organizations.’ All of whom will be handpicked by Obama and those federal bureaucrats he appoints.” Beginning of Obama’s civilian security force Section 5210 of the Patient’s Protection and Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. Obamacare) may be the beginning of Obama’s civilian security force. This section amends Section 203 of the U.S. Public Health Service Act. Why it was included in the massive health care bill is a question in search of meaningful answers.
The Nehor Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, longview said: Actually, Obama is still holed up in D.C. working on his massive database of names and preparing his 'private army.' To quote: In July of 2008, presidential candidate Barack Hussein Obama stated that Americans could no longer “…continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” Then, in October of 2012, Barack Obama signed an Executive Order creating the “White House Homeland Security Partnership Council,” its ostensible purpose to “…advance the federal government’s use of local partnerships to address homeland-security challenges.” But the DHS was ALREADY working with local governments across the nation. Why would Obama intercede in this way? Because “he [wanted] to be able to dictate who gets to participate in these local partnerships – and they don’t have to be local law enforcement or local government officials to do so. These partnerships will be with ‘the private sector, nongovernmental organizations, foundations and community-based organizations.’ All of whom will be handpicked by Obama and those federal bureaucrats he appoints.” Beginning of Obama’s civilian security force Section 5210 of the Patient’s Protection and Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. Obamacare) may be the beginning of Obama’s civilian security force. This section amends Section 203 of the U.S. Public Health Service Act. Why it was included in the massive health care bill is a question in search of meaningful answers. Get help. 1
longview Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Get help. Yes, with all the demonizing of Trump, I pray God will protect his administration from the totally unhinged left.
The Nehor Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, longview said: Yes, with all the demonizing of Trump, I pray God will protect his administration from the totally unhinged left. And I am putting Obama's secret private army on the prayer roll in the temple every week. Pretty sure that makes my prayers stronger than yours. Edited March 24, 2017 by The Nehor
JAHS Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: 6 hours ago, JAHS said: It's greater than 10,000 employees. CFR 6 hours ago, JAHS said: The original point I was making is that it employs and pays thousands of people in more than 100 countries. That's a lot of tithing. and how many jobs outside the USA? especially in Latin America? With only 60 million dollars you can create 10,000 good paying jobs. 6 hours ago, JAHS said: Senior Software Engineer $113,500 Of course, but I don't think the church offers 10,000 senior software engineer jobs. How much does a Clerk,Sales for the church make? or a security guard? or a janitor? https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/clerk-sales-on-call-position-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-JV_KO0,28_KE29,76.htm?jl=2314706650 Holy cow! Give it up already. The front page of the Glassdoor entry for the church that I provided a link to said "greater than 10,000 employees" I gave a short list of other types of jobs. The glassdoor listing had 22 pages of other varieties of jobs. All the salaries are similar to those in other companies for a similar position. If you want to see what all the salaries are just join the website and you can see them. A security guard is about $50,000 but of course not everyone is a security guard, right? 3
longview Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: And I am putting Obama's secret private army on the prayer roll in the temple every week. Pretty sure that makes my prayers stronger than yours. Good! Hopefully that will pull them to the bright side of the force. Us Jedi Knights should stick together.
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