Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 As a sister included the story of Job in her excellent sacrament meeting talk today, it occurred to me that his story is the perfect allegory for the Plan of Salvation. In our First Estate, we lived wonderful, blessed, perfect lives. We were safe, protected, secure. But there was more in store for us. Our faith needed to be tested. We needed a time of probation to see if we would keep all of Father's commandments. In our mortal state, we are subject to suffering, sorrow, and the buffetings of Satan. He was given the power to bruise our heels, but Christ has the power to crush his head. As we pass into the next life, we are rewarded with more than we had when we lived with God before our times of trial. Just a thought. I'm sure this isn't original, but I thought it was interesting. Comments? 1
sunstoned Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Not my favorite book. God not only wagered with Satan, he also ruined Job's life over the stupid bet (Job 1:9-12, 2:4-6). Animals and other people who weren't even involved died (Job 1:13-19). God literally made this deal with the devil and it seems that Job's life, and the lives of his family and livestock were just a joke to God and Satan. Not a good story if you want to believe that God all-good and all-loving. Edited February 27, 2017 by sunstoned 2
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, sunstoned said: Not my favorite book. God not only wagered with Satan, he also ruined Job's life over the stupid bet (Job 1:9-12, 2:4-6). Animals and other people who weren't even involved died (Job 1:13-19). God literally made this deal with the devil and it seems that Job's life, and the lives of his family and livestock were just a joke to God and Satan. Not a good story if you want to believe that God all-good and all-loving. Not my favorite book either. The framing method tacked on at the beginning and end with Satan and God discussing Job and the miraculous 'everything is fixed' ruins the story. I suspect that either it was added later or the author really screwed that part up. The whole point of the book is that Job did not know why he was suffering. When God appears at the end no explanation comes but Job's experience of God allows him to accept the punishment. The prologue makes God seem like a pompous idiot or a dissembler trying to sound profound. God talks about his unfathomableness (probably not a word) as an explanation, suggesting Job is just not able to understand why this happened. Meanwhile the reader who read the prologue knows the supposed reason and it is incredibly mundane and simple. When God appeared instead of talking about the Leviathan and the Behemoth and his conquest of them he should have said: "Hi Job, it was a test to prove your faithfulness. I was talking with Satan and he got smart with me so I tormented you to prove to him that your piety is real. Your extended suffering has proved a point to the devil who will probably ignore what he should have learned. Hope that clears it up. Bye!" I would think the whole thing was allegory but the reference in the D&C where Jesus compares Joseph to Job makes me doubt that theory. On the other hand I find it hard to buy that Job got ill and his friends all got together and spoke in a poetic style in neatly defined long speeches with no interruptions and all spoke in the same style throughout. On top of that that someone heard these speeches and somehow wrote them down verbatim. My current belief is near the middle of the spectrum between it belonging in the Apocrypha as an allegory with no historical basis and it being an ancient equivalent of a "based on a true story" book or movie. Edited February 27, 2017 by The Nehor 2
Gray Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: As a sister included the story of Job in her excellent sacrament meeting talk today, it occurred to me that his story is the perfect allegory for the Plan of Salvation. In our First Estate, we lived wonderful, blessed, perfect lives. We were safe, protected, secure. But there was more in store for us. Our faith needed to be tested. We needed a time of probation to see if we would keep all of Father's commandments. In our mortal state, we are subject to suffering, sorrow, and the buffetings of Satan. He was given the power to bruise our heels, but Christ has the power to crush his head. As we pass into the next life, we are rewarded with more than we had when we lived with God before our times of trial. Just a thought. I'm sure this isn't original, but I thought it was interesting. Comments? That's a pretty spiffy interpretation. I like it!
Gray Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: Not my favorite book either. The framing method tacked on at the beginning and end with Satan and God discussing Job and the miraculous 'everything is fixed' ruins the story. I suspect that either it was added later or the author really screwed that part up. The whole point of the book is that Job did not know why he was suffering. When God appears at the end no explanation comes but Job's experience of God allows him to accept the punishment. The prologue makes God seem like a pompous idiot or a dissembler trying to sound profound. God talks about his unfathomableness (probably not a word) as an explanation, suggesting Job is just not able to understand why this happened. Meanwhile the reader who read the prologue knows the supposed reason and it is incredibly mundane and simple. When God appeared instead of talking about the Leviathan and the Behemoth and his conquest of them he should have said: "Hi Job, it was a test to prove your faithfulness. I was talking with Satan and he got smart with me so I tormented you to prove to him that your piety is real. Your extended suffering has proved a point to the devil who will probably ignore what he should have learned. Hope that clears it up. Bye!" I would think the whole thing was allegory but the reference in the D&C where Jesus compares Joseph to Job makes me doubt that theory. On the other hand I find it hard to buy that Job got ill and his friends all got together and spoke in a poetic style in neatly defined long speeches with no interruptions and all spoke in the same style throughout. On top of that that someone heard these speeches and somehow wrote them down verbatim. My current belief is near the middle of the spectrum between it belonging in the Apocrypha as an allegory with no historical basis and it being an ancient equivalent of a "based on a true story" book or movie. Yeah, the story of Job is an early (and, IMO, failed) attempt to tackle the problem of evil. Edited February 27, 2017 by Gray 2
Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2017 Author Posted February 27, 2017 10 hours ago, sunstoned said: Not my favorite book. God not only wagered with Satan, he also ruined Job's life over the stupid bet (Job 1:9-12, 2:4-6). Animals and other people who weren't even involved died (Job 1:13-19). God literally made this deal with the devil and it seems that Job's life, and the lives of his family and livestock were just a joke to God and Satan. Not a good story if you want to believe that God all-good and all-loving. All those very bad things, of course, being very real parts of our fallen existence. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2017 Author Posted February 27, 2017 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: Not my favorite book either. The framing method tacked on at the beginning and end with Satan and God discussing Job and the miraculous 'everything is fixed' ruins the story. I suspect that either it was added later or the author really screwed that part up. The whole point of the book is that Job did not know why he was suffering. When God appears at the end no explanation comes but Job's experience of God allows him to accept the punishment. The prologue makes God seem like a pompous idiot or a dissembler trying to sound profound. God talks about his unfathomableness (probably not a word) as an explanation, suggesting Job is just not able to understand why this happened. Meanwhile the reader who read the prologue knows the supposed reason and it is incredibly mundane and simple. When God appeared instead of talking about the Leviathan and the Behemoth and his conquest of them he should have said: "Hi Job, it was a test to prove your faithfulness. I was talking with Satan and he got smart with me so I tormented you to prove to him that your piety is real. Your extended suffering has proved a point to the devil who will probably ignore what he should have learned. Hope that clears it up. Bye!" I would think the whole thing was allegory but the reference in the D&C where Jesus compares Joseph to Job makes me doubt that theory. On the other hand I find it hard to buy that Job got ill and his friends all got together and spoke in a poetic style in neatly defined long speeches with no interruptions and all spoke in the same style throughout. On top of that that someone heard these speeches and somehow wrote them down verbatim. My current belief is near the middle of the spectrum between it belonging in the Apocrypha as an allegory with no historical basis and it being an ancient equivalent of a "based on a true story" book or movie. It's obviously an allegory, notwithstanding the D&C reference which can be just as valid whether it was a historical event or not.. No comment about it depicting the Plan of Salvation? 1
longview Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 It was not a bet. The Plan of Happiness requires an Adversary who also acts as an 'Accuser' that will constantly second guess all aspects of events occurring on mortal earth. He probably will look closely on what will transpire in 'Place of Rest' and 'Place of Torment' and all subsequent steps leading to the Ressurection and the Final Judgement. I have no doubt God knew what Job needed in the Eternal sense and would have performed His 'Refining Process' with or without that discussion with Lucifer. Job did not fully comprehend why it was a blessing but regardless he was willing to put his trust in his Maker. I feel certain that Job will rejoice in the next world at what he has GAINED (worth many times over) as a result of the additional testing (strengthening/exalting). I do believe Job's experience was REAL. And God saw to it that a record was made and added to the canon.
JLHPROF Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: As a sister included the story of Job in her excellent sacrament meeting talk today, it occurred to me that his story is the perfect allegory for the Plan of Salvation. In our First Estate, we lived wonderful, blessed, perfect lives. We were safe, protected, secure. But there was more in store for us. Our faith needed to be tested. We needed a time of probation to see if we would keep all of Father's commandments. In our mortal state, we are subject to suffering, sorrow, and the buffetings of Satan. He was given the power to bruise our heels, but Christ has the power to crush his head. As we pass into the next life, we are rewarded with more than we had when we lived with God before our times of trial. Just a thought. I'm sure this isn't original, but I thought it was interesting. Comments? I think that's quite possible. The Good Samaritan is likewise an allegory of the plan of salvation.
theplains Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: In our First Estate, we lived wonderful, blessed, perfect lives. We were safe, protected, secure. But there was more in store for us. Our faith needed to be tested. We needed a time of probation Comments? According to the 1997 version of Gospel Principles, "In the premortal life we were free agents. That means we had power to act for ourselves (see D&C 93:29–30)." (page 21). Agency Requires That There Be a Choice - We cannot choose unless the opposites of good and evil are placed before us." (page 23) These LDS teachings, if true, would indicate they were tested with evil choices in that place too.. Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, theplains said: According to the 1997 version of Gospel Principles, "In the premortal life we were free agents. That means we had power to act for ourselves (see D&C 93:29–30)." (page 21). Agency Requires That There Be a Choice - We cannot choose unless the opposites of good and evil are placed before us." (page 23) These LDS teachings, if true, would indicate they were tested with evil choices in that place too.. Yes. Satan led one third part of the hosts of heaven to rebel against God and they were cast out.
RevTestament Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: As a sister included the story of Job in her excellent sacrament meeting talk today, it occurred to me that his story is the perfect allegory for the Plan of Salvation. In our First Estate, we lived wonderful, blessed, perfect lives. We were safe, protected, secure. But there was more in store for us. Our faith needed to be tested. We needed a time of probation to see if we would keep all of Father's commandments. In our mortal state, we are subject to suffering, sorrow, and the buffetings of Satan. He was given the power to bruise our heels, but Christ has the power to crush his head. As we pass into the next life, we are rewarded with more than we had when we lived with God before our times of trial. Just a thought. I'm sure this isn't original, but I thought it was interesting. Comments? Job's story definitely does include a pattern of the pre-existence - most notably the reference to when the morning stars sang together, I believe is a reference to the prophets in the pre-existence. I don't think I need to discuss much that the prophets encounter and overcome many difficulties. Moses had to turn from the riches of Egypt only to brave the desert. The list only goes on. So Job is yes, a pattern of trial encountered in life. Job is helping the Lord defeat Satan through His loyalty even though God does Him wrong, and causes Him suffering. Of course in Yeshua's case He willingly accepted that. 1
The Nehor Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: It's obviously an allegory, notwithstanding the D&C reference which can be just as valid whether it was a historical event or not.. No comment about it depicting the Plan of Salvation? If I were Joseph and God compared my suffering to a fictional character to explain how it could be worse....not sure I would appreciate it. If you were suffering and I pointed out that you are not yet as bad off as Frodo would that be comforting? Maybe it would for Joseph or maybe he did not know whether Job was a historical account or not. Again, not married to the idea that it is historical but that is one point against it.
Bernard Gui Posted February 28, 2017 Author Posted February 28, 2017 9 hours ago, theplains said: According to the 1997 version of Gospel Principles, "In the premortal life we were free agents. That means we had power to act for ourselves (see D&C 93:29–30)." (page 21). Agency Requires That There Be a Choice - We cannot choose unless the opposites of good and evil are placed before us." (page 23) These LDS teachings, if true, would indicate they were tested with evil choices in that place too.. Thanks, Jim Were we tempted and tested before the Plan was presented and Satan came forward to oppose God?
Bernard Gui Posted February 28, 2017 Author Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: If I were Joseph and God compared my suffering to a fictional character to explain how it could be worse....not sure I would appreciate it. If you were suffering and I pointed out that you are not yet as bad off as Frodo would that be comforting? Maybe it would for Joseph or maybe he did not know whether Job was a historical account or not. Again, not married to the idea that it is historical but that is one point against it. Interesting. I'm pretty sure Borachoso gets upset when I refer to him as my very own prodigal son. That allegory does give me a bit of comfort, though. Frodo lives. Edited February 28, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Gray Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I think that's quite possible. The Good Samaritan is likewise an allegory of the plan of salvation. That's a neat secondary interpretation, but not the primary meaning.
JLHPROF Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Gray said: That's a neat secondary interpretation, but not the primary meaning. How do you know which meaning was primary and which was secondary?
Gray Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: How do you know which meaning was primary and which was secondary? The Adam and Eve interpretation is late, from the second century I believe. That doesn't mean it's wrong. No interpretation is wrong if it serves a good purpose. The parable itself is revolutionary because it upends the social order, like many of Jesus' teachings. Imagine a lesson in Sunday school where the teacher tells a story about how both an apostle and a bishop in our church passed a gravely injured man in the street without stopping to help. But in the end John Dehlin stops and helps the man, taking him to the hospital and even paying his medical bills. Imagine how a story like that would go down in Sunday school. That's something like the effect it would have had when Jesus would have told it. The meaning would have been lost on the 2nd century Christians, who had long since stopped identifying as Jewish, and I doubt would have understood the context around the choice to make the hero a Samaritan. Like many of his parables, his theme here is that righteousness is not about who you are or how ritually clean you are. It's about how you behave toward those in need. Edited February 28, 2017 by Gray 1
theplains Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 27/02/2017 at 6:49 PM, JLHPROF said: Yes. Satan led one third part of the hosts of heaven to rebel against God and they were cast out. Do you believe there existed only one choice between good and evil in the so-called premortal life?
theplains Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 28/02/2017 at 4:37 AM, Bernard Gui said: Were we tempted and tested before the Plan was presented and Satan came forward to oppose God? I don't believe in a pre-mortal life as spirit children of heavenly parents. Jim
JLHPROF Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 34 minutes ago, theplains said: Do you believe there existed only one choice between good and evil in the so-called premortal life? Yes and no. Yes, our choices either move us closer to God or further away from him. Only two directions. No, there wasn't a "you're good and you're evil" dualistic division. People here aren't necessarily good or evil. Why would it be so there? 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 6 hours ago, theplains said: I don't believe in a pre-mortal life as spirit children of heavenly parents. Jim OK. I do.
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 6:29 AM, Gray said: That's a neat secondary interpretation, but not the primary meaning. The original meaning got lost somewhere along the way.
theplains Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 On 01/03/2017 at 7:41 PM, JLHPROF said: Yes and no. Yes, our choices either move us closer to God or further away from him. Only two directions. Do you believe Adam and Eve's choice to eat from the forbidden tree moved them closer to God (a fall upwards ... the first step to exaltation/progression to Godhood) or further away from Him? Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 Just now, theplains said: Do you believe Adam and Eve's choice to eat from the forbidden tree moved them closer to God (a fall upwards ... the first step to exaltation/progression to Godhood) or further away from Him? Away from his presence. But closer to his character.
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