JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 minute ago, JulieM said: So, please tell me what the difference will be between associating with those you are sealed to and associating with those you are not sealed to in the CK? (Sincere question) I don't think we know for sure. But we can only go off what Joseph said and what scriptures teach. Maybe think of those you are not sealed to as members of your ward. And those you are sealed to as having the same sociality you have with your family here. One thing I am certain of though is that all relationships there will be governed by the laws established for that environment. There will be no way to transgress them.
Calm Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Even with all the various transcriptions, the doctrine that God was once a mortal man on an earth like we are is in all of them. Owning that doctrine more fully would go a long way to stem the tide of incorrect "traditional" Christian teachings that are creeping among us. It is still taught in a number of manuals and I hear the couplet a lot at church, so I am not sure why you see it that way. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-teacher-manual/chapter-3-god-the-eternal-father?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-8-pauls-witness-as-a-missionary/chapter-40-heirs-of-god-and-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng&clang=tam https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-5-the-grand-destiny-of-the-faithful?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-george-albert-smith/chapter-7?lang=eng https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/training/handbooks/charge-to-religious-educators_eng.pdf There are likely more, but thought this was enough. website info: https://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=5&topic=quotes https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&old=true 3
JAHS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Like most have said we don't know for sure how it will be, but if we have been sealed in the temple or have been born under the covenant we will have some kind of an eternal relationship with our family in heaven. We will all be sealed into the patriarchal family of God. I think though that the most important sealing is between husband and wife. You would most likely physically be together forever as a couple. Hopefully your children will also be sealed to spouses and will be off creating their own universes somewhere. So who knows how much of them you will really see? Maybe we can have an occasional family reunion. Edited February 24, 2017 by JAHS
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Calm said: It is still taught in a number of manuals and I hear the couplet a lot at church, so I am not sure why you see it that way. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-teacher-manual/chapter-3-god-the-eternal-father?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-8-pauls-witness-as-a-missionary/chapter-40-heirs-of-god-and-joint-heirs-with-christ?lang=eng&clang=tam https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-5-the-grand-destiny-of-the-faithful?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-george-albert-smith/chapter-7?lang=eng https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/training/handbooks/charge-to-religious-educators_eng.pdf There are likely more, but thought this was enough. website info: https://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=5&topic=quotes https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&old=true You are right Calm, as usual. And given that this teaching does pop up in manuals etc, I am at a loss to explain why I see members who refuse to believe it. I hear members on this board regularly who seem to think that God was always God and didn't progress to become God. Just an expression of agency in belief I guess. And given that we DO teach it, I do wonder why Pres. Hinckley didn't own it a little better in that famous interview. A bit of pearls before swine probably.
snowflake Posted February 24, 2017 Author Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Ahab said: getting married themselves and occasionally going back home for a visit, with the cycle repeating forever and ever. Any idea how this regression of gods got started? Who was the first god? Does the church know of any other gods other than Heavenly Father?
Calm Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 52 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I think the message of the gospel is that we can be more than just physically in the same place. We can be one, even as the Father and Son are one. "I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one." D&C 35:2 The essential point of the teaching imo. Also related to 1 Cor 13:12 as in no longer seeing through a glass darkly, knowing [others] as we are known. We will be one as a family in the CK, knowing each other on the level that God knows us now and therefore being able to have much, much....infinitely in fact, deeper emotional, social, mental, spiritual relationships with each other as well as with God. Those of other kingdoms will still have knowledge of others, but their awareness will be superficial compared to those in the CK. Hopefully much better than now so misunderstandings won't occur, but with the lack of oneness, we won't know what they are feeling and thinking, imo, and will have to guess and fully depend on how willing they are to be open about their thoughts and feelings, just as now.
RevTestament Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: Any idea how this regression of gods got started? Who was the first god? Does the church know of any other gods other than Heavenly Father? That secret lies in the Torah and D&C. Beyond that we don't really know -- My current thinking is that Heavenly Father is one with all those before. When Yeshua will be called the Eternal Father (Isa 9:6) will He be one with the Father still? My guess is yes - so no new El/power formed.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: Any idea how this regression of gods got started? Who was the first god? Does the church know of any other gods other than Heavenly Father? Why would there need to be a beginning or original cause? Don't EV's believe that God has always existed? Mormons are the same way except we believe the Council of the God's (Elohim) have always existed, even if they are constantly adding new members. Yes, we know of lots of Gods other than Heavenly Father. There's Heavenly Mother, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Father's Father (was there ever a father who was not first a son?) The Book of Mormon teaches us that Jesus is the Son who by purchasing us with his blood will become our Father when he receives his inheritance. And potentially many, many more in all the eternities that were and all the eternities that are to come. But we only pray to Heavenly Father, because that is what Jesus taught us to do. Edited February 24, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: Any idea how this regression of gods got started? Who was the first god? Does the church know of any other gods other than Heavenly Father? There was no ultimate beginning for any person who is the kind of being we refer to as God. They are eternal, with each one having a Father and with each one able to someday reproduce himself or herself, male or female. And there is no other kind of being which we refer to as God.
Calm Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You are right Calm, as usual. And given that this teaching does pop up in manuals etc, I am at a loss to explain why I see members who refuse to believe it. I hear members on this board regularly who seem to think that God was always God and didn't progress to become God. Just an expression of agency in belief I guess. And given that we DO teach it, I do wonder why Pres. Hinckley didn't own it a little better in that famous interview. A bit of pearls before swine probably. There definitely isn't as much mention of it outside of classes for some reason, unless there is paraphrasing that I missed. There are a number of magazine references prior to 2000. Not so much in the past ten years even if on the website itself in Gospel Topics and such. I think the absence is due to knowing people want to know the details of how and what and knowing we aren't certain of that (was God like Jesus---my opinion this is most likely, but opened to other possibilities), so tending to avoid the subject altogether, which is unfortunate. But having been at the end of conversations where I have been labeled an idiot or liar because I believe something that is rather vague and unexplainable and can't meet demands to provide all the what's and how's and where's as well as antis portraying the caricatures of the belief with vulgar words and images of God as a flagrant sinner, I can see why many avoid the conversation. 2
hope_for_things Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Could someone please explain to me exactly how the LDS concept of "eternal families" is supposed to work. Does it work like families here on earth where you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families? Or will you always be with your parents. Are there any empty nester "gods" whose families left to create their own universes? What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"? It works how ever you think it will work. When you wish upon a star kind of thinking. Its an aspirational concept, we know nothing substantial about the afterlife if it even exists at all. As a Mormon I have a hope that my consciousness continues and that we get to continue some kind of existence that would include growth and family connection. What that means, how it looks structurally, what that experience will entail is anybody's guess. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 minute ago, hope_for_things said: It works how ever you think it will work. When you wish upon a star kind of thinking. Its an aspirational concept, we know nothing substantial about the afterlife if it even exists at all. As a Mormon I have a hope that my consciousness continues and that we get to continue some kind of existence that would include growth and family connection. What that means, how it looks structurally, what that experience will entail is anybody's guess. Sorry, but that's nonsense. Only by rejecting most of scripture can you come to those conclusions.
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I hear members on this board regularly who seem to think that God was always God and didn't progress to become God. Just an expression of agency in belief I guess. Or a difference in understanding how the word God is being used, with some people not always thinking about how the word God has multiple true meanings. For example our Father was always the kind of being we refer to as God even though he wasn't always as perfect and perfectly good as he is now. Same Genus, I mean, rather than another kind of being. Communicating can be tricky sometimes.
Calm Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, JulieM said: So, please tell me what the difference will be between associating with those you are sealed to and associating with those you are not sealed to in the CK? (Sincere question) We will all be sealed to each other, though some will be a direct sealing (mortal parents, spouses, and children) and others indirect (ancestors before parents and their relatives, siblings, in laws etc). My opinion as stated above...our eternal family, which is another way of saying God's family, will have a higher level of awareness and intimacy much like the difference between those who live in a house together 24/7 and those who live in a dorm or different apartments in the same building (Terrestrial) and run into each other in the hallway and may or may not talk, meet at HMO meetings, eat next to each other in a cafeteria downstairs, run into each other in laundry room, etc. and those who live in completely separate houses with 6 ft or higher privacy fences around the massive property where you may not even recognize them in an encounter on a street. The glass when it comes to relationships is still dark for Telestials, smudged somewhat for Terrestrials and completely removed for those exalted for there is nothing between them preventing perfect expression and understanding of their experience, their being. Edited February 24, 2017 by Calm
Jeanne Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 37 minutes ago, JulieM said: So, please tell me what the difference will be between associating with those you are sealed to and associating with those you are not sealed to in the CK? (Sincere question) This is why I believe that I will be able to be with my husband if he so desires..but I want him to want me..not be tethered to me. Does that make sense? 1
hope_for_things Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, but that's nonsense. Only by rejecting most of scripture can you come to those conclusions. Is my hope for a continuation of my existence in an afterlife a rejection of the scriptures? I thought hope was an important component of the gospel, maybe I'm missing something.
Duncan Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 31 minutes ago, cinepro said: Seriously, the doctrine is best explained in this video: Together Forever It's the doctrinal equivalent of a Hallmark card. Here's why. LDS doctrine teaches that there are three main "kingdoms" of heaven (the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial): After you die, you eventually get resurrected and judged and sent to one of these kingdoms. Now here's the question: If a man and woman ("Bob" and "Sue") are married on Earth and they both die and get sent to the Telestial Kingdom, won't they get to spend all eternity together? From everything I can tell, yes. Our resurrected bodies will have our memories of our Earth life. So when Bob sees Sue in the Terrestrial Kingdom, they can hang out together and play tennis and watch Netflix together for the rest of eternity. And if their "kids" are there, then they can do it as a family. But what if Bob ends up in the Telestial and Sue ends up in the Terrestrial? Well, eternity is a long time compared to the ~100 years we might get on Earth, so presumably they would eventually meet other people and make new friends. They would always remember the fun times they had on Earth with each other, but they would probably move on after a couple hundred centuries. And that's assuming they even liked each other that much at the ends of their earthly lives. So the key thing to being "Together Forever" as a family isn't necessarily being Mormon. It's making sure the people you want to be with end up in the same kingdom as you. So when missionaries tell a family that they aren't going to be together in the eternities, they really don't know. It's entirely possible the members of that family will all end up together and get to play board games and eat popcorn (see: the video) for the rest of all eternity. The only factor left in all of this is really one thing: can a man and woman have sex in the afterlife. This seems to be the only distinction between being with a spouse in the Celestial Kingdom compared to the other kingdoms. For example, look at this lesson for college-age Mormons: Marriage For All Eternity These quotes explain it nicely: So an eternal marriage doesn't mean being "together forever", and it's not about the kids you may have in this life. It means being together forever and having operational reproductive plumbing, and the eternal reproduction you'll have by making new spirit children. That's something they don't mention in the video. But to expand even on that point, the scriptures teach that our resurrected bodies are going to be perfect restorations of our human bodies in every way: It doesn't say that some people will have their sex organs sealed up or permanently deflated. So if everything is perfectly restored, then it's conceivable that they won't have the power to create spirit babies, but still be able to enjoy the other benefits of the act. So the selling point might not even be "sex" itself. It really comes down to "eternal increase" and being "kings and priests (and queens)" over your spirit children. One thing i'd like to know is beyond the words of Presidents of the Church is there anywhere in scripture that says that single folks who want to get married can have that opportunity in the next life? 1
JulieM Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, but that's nonsense. Only by rejecting most of scripture can you come to those conclusions. I think it seems more like it was made up as needed or as time progressed. Men were sealed to men and that was stopped. What will be the relationship in the CK involving all those sealings (such as John D. Lee being sealed to Brigham Young as just one example of many from then)? Jane Manning was sealed to Joseph as his eternal servant. How will that relationship be in the CK? It all becomes so convoluted as you research the history of it. I doubt God will make things so complicated. Just my opinion! Edited February 24, 2017 by JulieM
Jeanne Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 An eternal servant..what in the heck does that mean???? 1
Jeanne Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: One thing i'd like to know is beyond the words of Presidents of the Church is there anywhere in scripture that says that single folks who want to get married can have that opportunity in the next life? I have read this a lot..but not sure it was scripture. 1
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Is my hope for a continuation of my existence in an afterlife a rejection of the scriptures? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on what you believe about the afterlife vs. what the afterlife actually is.
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: An eternal servant..what in the heck does that mean???? They liked each other a lot and wanted to keep their relationship as they knew it.
Jeanne Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Just now, Ahab said: They liked each other a lot and wanted to keep their relationship as they knew it. I hope she says..no..no way...I could think of other things to say but I would get kicked off the board..!
hope_for_things Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think it seems more like it was made up as needed or as time progressed. Men were sealed to men and that was stopped. What will be the relationship in the CK involving all those sealings (such as John D. Lee being sealed to Brigham Young as just one example of many from then)? Jane Manning was sealed to Joseph as his eternal servant. How will that relationship be in the CK? It all becomes so convoluted as you research the history of it. I doubt God will make things so complicated. Just my opinion! Good points, but its not only this, its proof texting scripture to mean something different than the original authors intended. Higher criticism of the bible and other texts has revealed a lot of interesting things about how we've misappropriated passages of scripture to take them completely out of the author's original intent. This is one problem with our current teachings about the afterlife, we've misused scriptures to get to where we are today. Secondly, there have been many church leaders who were willing to just speculate and theorize about all kinds of theological concepts. Because of their title(prophets & apostles) their wild speculations are given authoritative clout. Many of their musings that our culture has issues with today have been disavowed in some cases or more commonly quietly discarded. However, many of these speculations remain in our current teachings and are considered orthodox truth. How do we as a church determine which ideas legitimately hold a kernel of divine truth and which ones don't? The process for how our doctrines have evolved has not been a systematic process with an overarching strategy towards thought and intent, history shows a complicated and haphazard journey from 1830 until today. One thing I can say is that our doctrines continue to evolve today and will continue to evolve in the future. Today's orthodoxy in many instances will be tomorrows heresy. What is true about the afterlife? Your guess is as good as mine. Edited February 24, 2017 by hope_for_things
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I hope she says..no..no way...I could think of other things to say but I would get kicked off the board..! Hopefully they'll both be open to making it even better than just a servant/master relationship...something even better than that. Maybe even with both of them serving each other.
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