Eternal Families

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

An eternal servant..what in the heck does that mean????

It sounds like eternal slavery

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

They liked each other a lot and wanted to keep their relationship as they knew it.

That's not what happened.  Are you trying to be funny or do you truly not know what took place?

Jane begged and petitioned to be endowed and sealed to the Smith family.  All her petitions were denied. It was the First Presidency who decided to seal her as his eternal servant in a special ceremony (Joseph had already passed away).  Emma originally wanted her sealed to them as their daughter, iirc (it's been awhile since I read about this).

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by JulieM

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

An eternal servant..what in the heck does that mean????

D&C 132:16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That's not what happened.  Are you trying to be funny or do you truly not know what took place?

Jane begged to be sealed to Joseph.  It was Brigham who decided to seal her as his servant (Joseph had already passed away).  Emma originally wanted her sealed to them as their daughter, iirc (it's been awhile since I read about this).

 

So you think maybe Joseph didn't want to keep their relationship as they knew it, or maybe Jane didn't?

I just meant that it's better when both people in a relationship serve each other. There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting to be another person's servant.

And the term used was servant, not slave.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That's not what happened.  Are you trying to be funny or do you truly not know what took place?

Jane begged and petitioned to be endowed and sealed to the Smith family.  All her petitions were denied. It was Brigham who decided to seal her as his servant (Joseph had already passed away).  Emma originally wanted her sealed to them as their daughter, iirc (it's been awhile since I read about this).

 

Actually the First Presidency under Wilford Woodruff prepared the sealing as servant and had the ceremony performed in 1894 with Joseph F. Smith as proxy.
Brigham wasn't alive although she may have petitioned him for temple ordinances for her family prior to his death.

[JulieM]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Actually the First Presidency under Wilford Woodruff prepared the sealing as servant and had the ceremony performed in 1894 with Joseph F. Smith as proxy.
Brigham wasn't alive although she may have petitioned him for temple ordinances for her family prior to his death.

Yes, I already changed that after looking it up (to First Presidency).  But I do believe she petitioned Brigham to receive her endowment.

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Is my hope for a continuation of my existence in an afterlife a rejection of the scriptures?  I thought hope was an important component of the gospel, maybe I'm missing something.

No, your claim that "It works how ever you think it will work." and "we know nothing substantial about the afterlife if it even exists at all" are rejections of revealed truths in scripture.

[JulieM]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So you think maybe Joseph didn't want to keep their relationship as they knew it, or maybe Jane didn't?

I just meant that it's better when both people in a relationship serve each other. There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting to be another person's servant.

And the term used was servant, not slave.

I never used the word "slave", so I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.  

And regarding your first question above, the anwer is no that's not what Jane wanted (read what really took place).  And no, that's not what Joseoh wanted either. He and Emma offered to have her sealed to them as their daughter but she was later denied having this take place. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by JulieM

[Jeanne]

24 minutes ago, Gray said:

It sounds like eternal slavery

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I never used the word "slave", so I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.

And regarding your first question above, the anwer is no that's not what Jane wanted (read what really took place).  And no, that's not what Joseoh wanted either. He and Emma offered to have her sealed to them as their daughter but she was later denied having this take place.

Emma offered.  There is no reference that Joseph offered.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I never used the word "slave", so I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.  

And regarding your first question above, the anwer is no that's not what Jane wanted (read what really took place).  And no, that's not what Joseoh wanted either. He and Emma offered to have her sealed to them as their daughter but she was later denied having this take place. 

We're still not communicating very well.

I was saying they both wanted to keep their relationship "as they knew it".  The terms they used to define their relationship, as they knew it, aren't really important as long as they still got to continue their relationship "as they knew it".

So hopefully if they both want that, they will get it... their relationship "as they knew it"... if not even better than that.

Please pass me some punch and cookies, please.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Ahab

[Jeanne]

24 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That's not what happened.  Are you trying to be funny or do you truly not know what took place?

Jane begged and petitioned to be endowed and sealed to the Smith family.  All her petitions were denied. It was the First Presidency who decided to seal her as his eternal servant in a special ceremony (Joseph had already passed away).  Emma originally wanted her sealed to them as their daughter, iirc (it's been awhile since I read about this).

 

Glad I found this post.  This helps..I think.

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We're still not communicating very well.

I was saying they both wanted to keep their relationship "as they knew it". 

If you are referring to Jane and Joseph when you state "they", then CFR.

Edited February 24, 2017 by JulieM

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

If you are referring to Jane and Joseph when you state "they", the CFR.

I give up. You win. (if you can call it that)

Maybe "they" both did NOT want to continue their relationship "as they knew it".  

Maybe what Joseph really wanted was to never see Jane ever again.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Emma offered.  There is no reference that Joseph offered.

Interesting, I didn't know that.  

There are those who are leaning towards it being an offer to be sealed as a wife, not a child.  My memory is that is because at the time the only sealings being done were husband and wives.  Law of adoption sealings did not take place till after Joseph was dead.

Do you know if this is accurate?  If so, do you know when we started sealing nonBIC (especially adults) children to their parents when the parents were sealed while living, especially if there were BIC children around?

Also, were any women sealed as daughters in the Law of Adoption or was it just men to the best of your knowledge?  I don't remember reading or any women participating in such.

Anyone else knowing these details can answer too, please do in fact.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Calm

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I give up. You win. (if you can call it that)

Maybe "they" both did NOT want to continue their relationship "as they knew it".  

Maybe what Joseph really wanted was to never see Jane ever again.

Why don't you just look it up and read what actually took place instead of making incorrect statements in your replies as if they are facts?  You just look foolish when you continue to do that as you are way off base here regarding both Jane and Joseph (which isn't fair to either one of them). 

I hope you'll read the account of what did happen.  It's a fascinating story.

[JulieM]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Emma offered.  There is no reference that Joseph offered.

True (I stated that originally but misspoke the second time...thanks for correcting it!)

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Why don't you just look it up and read what actually took place instead of making incorrect statements in your replies as if they are facts?  You just look foolish when you continue to do that as you are way off base here regarding both Jane and Joseph (which isn't fair to either one of them). 

I hope you'll read the account of what did happen.  It's a fascinating story.

Or you could just save me some time and tell me they didn't want to continue their relationship as they knew it.

Seems much easier that way to me.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Interesting, I didn't know that.

There are those who are leaning towards it being an offer to be sealed as a wife, not a child.  My memory is that is because at the time the only sealings being done were husband and wives.  Law of adoption sealings did not take place till after Joseph was dead.

Do you know if this is accurate?  If so, do you know when we started sealing nonBIC (especially adults) children to their parents when the parents were sealed while living, especially if there were BIC children around?

Also, were any women sealed as daughters in the Law of Adoption or was it just men to the best of your knowledge?  I don't remember reading or any women participating in such.

Anyone else knowing these details can answer too, please do in fact.

I will have to do some research on all of this.
I have a copy of the Nauvoo temple ordinance records at home and there were limited ordinances performed prior to that.

LoA happened so quickly after Joseph's death I have a hard time believing Brigham instituted and made up the practice.

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Interesting, I didn't know that.  

There are those who are leaning towards it being an offer to be sealed as a wife, not a child.  My memory is that is because at the time the only sealings being done were husband and wives.  Law of adoption sealings did not take place till after Joseph was dead.

Do you know if this is accurate?  If so, do you know when we started sealing nonBIC (especially adults) children to their parents when the parents were sealed while living, especially if there were BIC children around?

Also, were any women sealed as daughters in the Law of Adoption or was it just men to the best of your knowledge?  I don't remember reading or any women participating in such.

Anyone else knowing these details can answer too, please do in fact.

Here's from her autobiography:

"Sister Emma asked me one day if I would like to be adopted to them as their child and I did not answer her.  She said, 'I will wait a while and let you consider it.'  She waited two weeks before she asked me again. When she did, I told her, 'No, Ma'am!' because I did not understand or know what it meant.  They were always good and kind to me, but I did not know my own mind.  I did not comprehend."

https://history.lds.org/article/jane-manning-james-life-sketch?lang=eng

 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I will have to do some research on all of this.
I have a copy of the Nauvoo temple ordinance records at home and there were limited ordinances performed prior to that.

LoA happened so quickly after Joseph's death I have a hard time believing Brigham instituted and made up the practice.

I would think it was probably something discussed beforehand with Joseph, but either they hadn't settled on it or were waiting for the temple or there was another reason for delaying it.

Thank you.  I find the topic interesting, but not sure how to do research in my own on this.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Here's from her autobiography:

"Sister Emma asked me one day if I would like to be adopted to them as their child and I did not answer her.  She said, 'I will wait a while and let you consider it.'  She waited two weeks before she asked me again. When she did, I told her, 'No, Ma'am!' because I did not understand or know what it meant.  They were always good and kind to me, but I did not know my own mind.  I did not comprehend."

https://history.lds.org/article/jane-manning-james-life-sketch?lang=eng

 

The claim is she didn't quote Emma and she herself expresses a lack of understanding.

What if Emma said something like "would you like to be sealed to Joseph as part of our family?"  Could be interpreted as adoption, but could mean wife.  Emma did choose at least two women for Joseph's wives ( already had been chosen by Joseph though, sigh).

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Here's from her autobiography:

"Sister Emma asked me one day if I would like to be adopted to them as their child and I did not answer her.  She said, 'I will wait a while and let you consider it.'  She waited two weeks before she asked me again. When she did, I told her, 'No, Ma'am!' because I did not understand or know what it meant.  They were always good and kind to me, but I did not know my own mind.  I did not comprehend."

https://history.lds.org/article/jane-manning-james-life-sketch?lang=eng

 

To be fair, this could be referring to a legal adoption, not necessarily a temple sealing.
Joseph and Emma weren't even sealed as husband and wife before late 1843.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would think it was probably something discussed beforehand with Joseph, but either they hadn't settled on it or were waiting for the temple or there was another reason for delaying it.

You seem to know something about this, maybe even more than I do.

Would you say they both (Joseph and Jane) wanted to continue their relationship with each other as they knew it, or do you think maybe one didn't want to know the other one anymore?

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

The claim is she didn't quote Emma and she herself expresses a lack of understanding.

What if Emma said something like "would you like to be sealed to Joseph as part of our family?"  Could be interpreted as adoption, but could mean wife.  Emma did choose at least two women for Joseph's wives ( already had been chosen by Joseph though, sigh).

Interesting.  This is probably the only first hand account of what took place between her and Emma (do you know if she ever wrote more about it?).  I think it's pretty close to her quoting what Emma offered.  I guess she could have misquoted her (but Jane states that Emma offered it to her twice so she would have had to misunderstand both times). Maybe Jane didn't know Joseph had other wives and just assumed it would be as her daughter?

Edited February 25, 2017 by JulieM