What my recent reading of horror novels has taught me about an all powerful God

[boblloyd91]

So with it being Halloween and all, I recently took it upon myself to read the works of H.P. Lovecraft and Arthur Machen (two great writers by the way). I think Lovecraft is fairly well know to all of us, however Machen (who from what I read was an influence on Lovecraft) was a Welsh writer whose most well known works include "The White People" and "The Great God Pan". An interesting theme I noticed in the novels/stories I read is the concept of evil being an all powerful, omniscient force that involves itself in the life of man if accessed. This is especially prevalent in Lovecraft's Cthulhu stories. It made me think of how nice it is to have a worldview where Divine Good is truly in charge, and evil will always be subservient to the powers of righteousness and love. I was curious if anyone has ever read Lovacraft, Machen, or any other horror writer and if so what were your thoughts? It would be a fun Halloween discussion!

[bluebell]

I don't think I've ever read either of them, but I have noticed the theme in horror movies and books in general. 

Evil is all powerful and good can never quite vanquish it completely.  Someone calls on the power of God for help and the demon/monster/devil laughs in their face and then kills them. 

I think it's another example of the perspective of our fallen world and the lack of trust in God to be a force for good in dark times. 

And it's also just a by product of the need of the genre to be scary. 

[mnn727]

I've tried reading Lovecraft and the Cthulhu stories but I just can't get past the overly descriptive language its written in.

Where I could  write one paragraph describing what is happening, Lovecraft takes a whole chapter.

[Meadowchik]

I do so love that aspect of the gospel, that we can crush Satan's head. He has no power which we do not give him.

[ERayR]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't think I've ever read either of them, but I have noticed the theme in horror movies and books in general. 

Evil is all powerful and good can never quite vanquish it completely.  Someone calls on the power of God for help and the demon/monster/devil laughs in their face and then kills them. 

I think it's another example of the perspective of our fallen world and the lack of trust in God to be a force for good in dark times. 

And it's also just a by product of the need of the genre to be scary. 

Evil will always be with us and very powerful in the realms it can access but it is relegated to certain realms and can go no farther whereas God and those who follow him can access places where evil can never go.

[The Nehor]

In Lovecraft the Mythos (all the beings out there) are not evil. The idea in Lovecraft is that humanity doesn not 'get' the Universe while these beings do. They understand the laws of reality we do not and if we try to understand we become, by human standards, insane. It is an uncaring Universe, not an actively evil one. Humans are a byproduct of a failed experiment in the past and their doom is certain. We just do not matter.

There are times I wish Lovecraft was more right. I sometimes wish my choices and life mattered less. It would make living on Earth much more comfortable though probably less fulfilling. I would also probably have signed on to those ethically dubious business deals a few years back and be much much more wealthy. Oh well. One day I get to rule the Universe and if I want to meet Cthulhu I can always create him.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by The Nehor

[Gray]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In Lovecraft the Mythos (all the beings out there) are not evil. The idea in Lovecraft is that humanity doesn not 'get' the Universe while these beings do. They understand the laws of reality we do not and if we try to understand we become, by human standards, insane. It is an uncaring Universe, not an actively evil one. Humans are a byproduct of a failed experiment in the past and their doom is certain. We just do not matter.

There are times I wish Lovecraft was more right. I sometimes wish my choices and life mattered less. It would make living on Earth much more comfortable though probably less fulfilling. I would also probably have signed on to those ethically dubious business deals a few years back and be much much more wealthy. Oh well. One day I get to rule the Universe and if I want to meet Cthulhu I can always create him.  

Perhaps you'll have the honor of being devoured first at his coming. 

[CV75]

19 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

So with it being Halloween and all, I recently took it upon myself to read the works of H.P. Lovecraft and Arthur Machen (two great writers by the way). I think Lovecraft is fairly well know to all of us, however Machen (who from what I read was an influence on Lovecraft) was a Welsh writer whose most well known works include "The White People" and "The Great God Pan". An interesting theme I noticed in the novels/stories I read is the concept of evil being an all powerful, omniscient force that involves itself in the life of man if accessed. This is especially prevalent in Lovecraft's Cthulhu stories. It made me think of how nice it is to have a worldview where Divine Good is truly in charge, and evil will always be subservient to the powers of righteousness and love. I was curious if anyone has ever read Lovacraft, Machen, or any other horror writer and if so what were your thoughts? It would be a fun Halloween discussion!

Some of the posts on this board are horrifying enough! LOL

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Gray said:

Perhaps you'll have the honor of being devoured first at his coming. 

Fingers crossed.

[PeterPear]

Well, my not so recent study of Church History revealed that during the year 1816, or the year without a summer, which forced Joseph Smith, Sr. from Vermont to upstate New York, the horror stories of Frankenstein and Dracula were created:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer#Cultural_effects

In June 1816, "incessant rainfall" during that "wet, ungenial summer" forced Mary Shelley, John William Polidori, and their friends to stay indoors at Villa Diodati overlooking Lake Geneva for much of their Swiss holiday.^[28][30][31] They decided to have a contest to see who could write the scariest story, leading Shelley to write Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheusand Lord Byron to write "A Fragment", which Polidori later used as inspiration for The Vampyre^[32] — a precursor to Dracula. In addition, Lord Byron was inspired to write the poem "Darkness", by a single day when "the fowls all went to roost at noon and candles had to be lit as at midnight".^[28]

--- // ---

According to historian L. D. Stillwell, Vermont alone experienced a decrease in population of between 10,000 and 15,000, erasing seven previous years of population growth.^[6]Among those who left Vermont were the family of Joseph Smith, who moved from Norwich, Vermont (though he was born in Sharon, Vermont) to Palmyra, New York.^[29] This move precipitated the series of events that culminated in the publication of the Book of Mormon and the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.^[19]

 

[boblloyd91]

2 hours ago, PeterPear said:

Well, my not so recent study of Church History revealed that during the year 1816, or the year without a summer, which forced Joseph Smith, Sr. from Vermont to upstate New York, the horror stories of Frankenstein and Dracula were created:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer#Cultural_effects

In June 1816, "incessant rainfall" during that "wet, ungenial summer" forced Mary Shelley, John William Polidori, and their friends to stay indoors at Villa Diodati overlooking Lake Geneva for much of their Swiss holiday.^[28][30][31] They decided to have a contest to see who could write the scariest story, leading Shelley to write Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheusand Lord Byron to write "A Fragment", which Polidori later used as inspiration for The Vampyre^[32] — a precursor to Dracula. In addition, Lord Byron was inspired to write the poem "Darkness", by a single day when "the fowls all went to roost at noon and candles had to be lit as at midnight".^[28]

--- // ---

According to historian L. D. Stillwell, Vermont alone experienced a decrease in population of between 10,000 and 15,000, erasing seven previous years of population growth.^[6]Among those who left Vermont were the family of Joseph Smith, who moved from Norwich, Vermont (though he was born in Sharon, Vermont) to Palmyra, New York.^[29] This move precipitated the series of events that culminated in the publication of the Book of Mormon and the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.^[19]

 

That's interesting info!

 

[Five Solas]

With an increasing distance from the twentieth century and concomitant broadening of cultural perspective, the New England poet, author, essayist and stunningly profuse epistoler Howard Phillips Lovecraft is beginning to emerge as one of that tumultuous period's most critically fascinating and yet enigmatic figures. Lovecraft is intriguing for not only the rich substrate of astonishing and sometimes prescient ideas that is the bedrock of his work, but for the sheer unlikelihood of his ascent into the ranks of the respected U.S. literary canon: Progeny of mentally ill parents and product of an estranging cloistered upbringing, he wrote a scant few dozen short tales and some longer pieces that were published only in sensational and stigmatized pulp magazines during his lifetime, if indeed they were published at all. After his 1937 death, the earliest mainstream response was typified by critic Edmund Wilson's withering dismissal, and even those parties most responsible for keeping Lovecraft's name alive would often only do so by (perhaps unwittingly) misrepresenting Lovecraft's fiction, his philosophy and his essential nature as a human being. Furthermore, acceptance of his output as substantial literature has undeniably been hindered by his problematic stance on most contemporary issues, with his racism, alleged misogyny, class prejudice, dislike of homosexuality and anti-semitism needing to be both acknowledged and addressed before a serious appraisal of his work could be commenced. Such is the mesmerizing power of Lovecraft's language and imagination that despite these obstacles he is today revered to a degree comparable with that of his formative idol Edgar Allan Poe, a posthumous trajectory from pulp to academia that is perhaps unique in modern letters.

--Alan Moore (from his introduction to Klinger's New Annotated H.P. Lovecraft)

The forum is long overdue for a thread on Lovecraft.  How was Lovecraft's cosmology similar to Joseph Smith's - with the latter's notion of outer space traveling gods (from a planet orbiting, "Kolob")?  Love to hear some serious thought given to this topic. 

Thank you, Bob

--Erik

PS. Read Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness & then watch Ridley Scott's Alien.

PPS.  And since we are indeed getting close to Halloween, enjoy this little gem from Ministry, back before Bob was born, I suspect.  You're welcome. 

;0)

[boblloyd91]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

With an increasing distance from the twentieth century and concomitant broadening of cultural perspective, the New England poet, author, essayist and stunningly profuse epistoler Howard Phillips Lovecraft is beginning to emerge as one of that tumultuous period's most critically fascinating and yet enigmatic figures. Lovecraft is intriguing for not only the rich substrate of astonishing and sometimes prescient ideas that is the bedrock of his work, but for the sheer unlikelihood of his ascent into the ranks of the respected U.S. literary canon: Progeny of mentally ill parents and product of an estranging cloistered upbringing, he wrote a scant few dozen short tales and some longer pieces that were published only in sensational and stigmatized pulp magazines during his lifetime, if indeed they were published at all. After his 1937 death, the earliest mainstream response was typified by critic Edmund Wilson's withering dismissal, and even those parties most responsible for keeping Lovecraft's name alive would often only do so by (perhaps unwittingly) misrepresenting Lovecraft's fiction, his philosophy and his essential nature as a human being. Furthermore, acceptance of his output as substantial literature has undeniably been hindered by his problematic stance on most contemporary issues, with his racism, alleged misogyny, class prejudice, dislike of homosexuality and anti-semitism needing to be both acknowledged and addressed before a serious appraisal of his work could be commenced. Such is the mesmerizing power of Lovecraft's language and imagination that despite these obstacles he is today revered to a degree comparable with that of his formative idol Edgar Allan Poe, a posthumous trajectory from pulp to academia that is perhaps unique in modern letters.

--Alan Moore (from his introduction to Klinger's New Annotated H.P. Lovecraft)

The forum is long overdue for a thread on Lovecraft.  How was Lovecraft's cosmology similar to Joseph Smith's - with the latter's notion of outer space traveling gods (from a planet orbiting, "Kolob")?  Love to hear some serious thought given to this topic. 

Thank you, Bob

--Erik

PS. Read Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness & then watch Ridley Scott's Alien.

PPS.  And since we are indeed getting close to Halloween, enjoy this little gem from Ministry, back before Bob was born, I suspect.  You're welcome. 

;0)

That's a great quote by Moore. It's amazing how much Lovecraft has influenced our culture. I think his most notable successor has been Stephen King, however I didn't think about the Alien connection. Also appreciated the recommendation to read "Mountain of Madness" certainly need to read that. I recently finished reading "The Dunwich Horror" though. Good story.

I'm a bit sad no one else has heard of Arthur Machen, but alas like people know C.S. Lewis much more then they know George Macdonald, I guess folks know Lovecraft better than Machen, even though he was a major influence. His novella "The White People" was the spookiest story I read out of all my reading. And it was about fairies of all things. However these fairies were terrifying, and I now check under my bed and closet for the "Fair Folk".

In regards to the similarities between Joseph Smith's cosmology and Lovecraft's, the only real similarity I can think of is the idea of individual gods (both upper and lower case). Having said this, when I have thought about the idea of a council of Gods, I never really saw it in the science fiction way some may have interpreted it. Like I think I mentioned in another thread, there is a growing body of literature studying the ancient concept of a divine council. I am trying to use those studies as well as the scriptures to get the best understanding I can. I don't remember the thread exactly, but if I recall we were discussing the concept of God developing in some aspects (the Mormon view) vs. the idea of God always being the way he was (the traditional view as outlined by Catholic posters here). I think no matter which view you hold, it's a bit mind boggling and there aren't a whole lot of answers to what God was thinking and doing before he created us and the world. I also can't fathom how things can always be, and have no beginning (even though both the Bible and LDS scriptures affirm this is the case). Even though Mormonism may give some details, all it does is kick the can down the road regarding what was going on before the creation.

However I digress. I know some feel the LDS position almost seems like we're equating God with little more then advanced extraterrestrial explorers who had an edge on knowledge. However I feel that one can't read LDS scripture and listen to things like General Conference and get that impression. My reading of the Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants etc. leaves me to believe in the omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence of God. I know in some discussions of deification our critics worry that we believe we are going to eventually not have to rely on God anymore when we have "progressed enough" but I feel this isn't warranted or accurate. Granted there was some discussion (in the King Follett discourse for example) of God's nature that's outside the box but I really do believe we Mormons have a much higher Christology then people give us credit for.

Also, I think in many ways LDS cosmology is the exact opposite of the Cthulhu mythos, as there is no nook or cranny physically, mentally, emotionally or spiritually where God and Christ aren't sovereign, compared to the overarching power of evil found in Lovecraft's works. Those are my thoughts at least. 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 10/27/2016 at 1:58 PM, boblloyd91 said:

So with it being Halloween and all, I recently took it upon myself to read the works of H.P. Lovecraft and Arthur Machen (two great writers by the way). I think Lovecraft is fairly well know to all of us, however Machen (who from what I read was an influence on Lovecraft) was a Welsh writer whose most well known works include "The White People" and "The Great God Pan". An interesting theme I noticed in the novels/stories I read is the concept of evil being an all powerful, omniscient force that involves itself in the life of man if accessed. This is especially prevalent in Lovecraft's Cthulhu stories. It made me think of how nice it is to have a worldview where Divine Good is truly in charge, and evil will always be subservient to the powers of righteousness and love. I was curious if anyone has ever read Lovacraft, Machen, or any other horror writer and if so what were your thoughts? It would be a fun Halloween discussion!

It made me think of how nice it is to have a worldview where Divine Good is truly in charge,

Sorry, this might be true for your neighborhood & city. But even in US substantial part of life is ruled by "evil" as you describe dark forces.And the rest of the world, some parts are worse than horrible. Sorry to be pessimistic.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 Sorry to be pessimistic.

We would expect nothing less.
Atheism removes hope.

[boblloyd91]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

It made me think of how nice it is to have a worldview where Divine Good is truly in charge,

Sorry, this might be true for your neighborhood & city. But even in US substantial part of life is ruled by "evil" as you describe dark forces.And the rest of the world, some parts are worse than horrible. Sorry to be pessimistic.

Don't be sorry, inter generational poverty, war, dictatorships etc are very real, very sad things. I agree there are many places in the world whose inhabitants have much less reason for faith, hope, and optimism then we do.

[Five Solas]

16 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

I'm a bit sad no one else has heard of Arthur Machen...

I don't think it's cause for sadness, Bob.  I've heard of Machen, but only because I'd heard of Lovecraft first.  And for better or worse, I've chosen not to invest time on some of Lovecraft's influences because it's his cosmology & sci-fi implications that interest me more than evolution of the horror genre. 

You can go broad across a lot of content or you can be selective and go deeper in fewer.  But you can't do everything.  When I was in junior high (Richfield, UT), I discovered David Bowie.  Completely by mistake as it happens, I thought Peter Schilling's song "Major Tom" was David Bowie, owning to a Time Magazine article (my parents had a subscription) about Bowie that referenced his character, "Major Tom" who Schilling borrowed.  But the mistake was quickly understood & corrected--and over the next few years, I went deep, accumulating Bowie's entire back catalog (sadly on cassette tape, an inherently fragile medium).  In the course of going deep on Bowie, I ignored a lot of his contemporaries (except for the ones who collaborated with him, of course).   Do I feeling any sadness for what I missed?  Not at all!  To be honest, I empathize more than a little with Penn Jillette (substitute Bowie in place of Bob Dylan for my case).  I'll link the quote here in Forbes (where the language has been cleaned up a little--and where you can still get to the original if you want). 

So don't be sad, Bob.  And let your freak flag fly!

--Erik

_____________________________________________

We passed upon the stair
We spoke of was and when
Although I wasn't there
He said I was his friend
Which came as some surprise
I spoke into his eyes
I thought you died alone
A long long time ago

Oh no, not me
We never lost control
You're face to face
With the man who sold the world

--David Bowie, 1970

 

[Atheist Mormon]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

We would expect nothing less.
Atheism removes hope.

OK, I used to have those hopes, none of them came true...Now that I shed those illusions, I still wanted to see some...What was a better place than Vegas? I loved David Copperfield, materializing a space ship so unexpectedly, Penn & Teller was no less entertaining. 

Life is good.

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by Atheist Mormon

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, boblloyd91 said:

Don't be sorry, inter generational poverty, war, dictatorships etc are very real, very sad things. I agree there are many places in the world whose inhabitants have much less reason for faith, hope, and optimism then we do.

Yes.

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

I don't think it's cause for sadness, Bob.  I've heard of Machen, but only because I'd heard of Lovecraft first.  And for better or worse, I've chosen not to invest time on some of Lovecraft's influences because it's his cosmology & sci-fi implications that interest me more than evolution of the horror genre. 

You can go broad across a lot of content or you can be selective and go deeper in fewer.  But you can't do everything.  When I was in junior high (Richfield, UT), I discovered David Bowie.  Completely by mistake as it happens, I thought Peter Schilling's song "Major Tom" was David Bowie, owning to a Time Magazine article (my parents had a subscription) about Bowie that referenced his character, "Major Tom" who Schilling borrowed.  But the mistake was quickly understood & corrected--and over the next few years, I went deep, accumulating Bowie's entire back catalog (sadly on cassette tape, an inherently fragile medium).  In the course of going deep on Bowie, I ignored a lot of his contemporaries (except for the ones who collaborated with him, of course).   Do I feeling any sadness for what I missed?  Not at all!  To be honest, I empathize more than a little with Penn Jillette (substitute Bowie in place of Bob Dylan for my case).  I'll link the quote here in Forbes (where the language has been cleaned up a little--and where you can still get to the original if you want). 

So don't be sad, Bob.  And let your freak flag fly!

--Erik

_____________________________________________

We passed upon the stair
We spoke of was and when
Although I wasn't there
He said I was his friend
Which came as some surprise
I spoke into his eyes
I thought you died alone
A long long time ago

Oh no, not me
We never lost control
You're face to face
With the man who sold the world

--David Bowie, 1970

 

You like David Bowie too? That's so cool! It was sad to see him go this year. In fact between losing him and Gene Wilder 2016 has been a trying year. 

Anyways, I guess I'm one of those people that finds hidden or lesser known things that are great. I'm also a "connect the dots" kind of guy and have always been fascinated with the development and evolution of things. I agree though that Lovecraft created a fascinating "universe" of deities and horrors. 

[Five Solas]

Okay, I'm gong to go off-topic and riff on Schilling and Bowie and a couple of mini-series that open with their respective work, each released last year.  I ask your indulgence (and I don't think you'll be sorry). 

Deutschland 83, a retelling of the Cold War through East German eyes, circa 1983. 

The Last Panthers, a story of organized crime in Europe, in the aftermath of the 1990's Bosnian War.  Suggest you ignore the lowish rating on this one, as there may be plenty of people displeased by the implication/message.  John Hurt--brilliant as ever. 

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Okay, I'm gong to go off-topic and riff on Schilling and Bowie and a couple of mini-series that open with their respective work, each released last year.  I ask your indulgence (and I don't think you'll be sorry). 

Deutschland 83, a retelling of the Cold War through East German eyes, circa 1983. 

The Last Panthers, a story of organized crime in Europe, in the aftermath of the 1990's Bosnian War.  Suggest you ignore the lowish rating on this one, as there may be plenty of people displeased by the implication/message.  John Hurt--brilliant as ever. 

--Erik

Interesting, are these one of those original series on Netflix or Hulu that are being made?

[Five Solas]

4 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Interesting, are these one of those original series on Netflix or Hulu that are being made?

Nope.  You'll have to pay the piper (Amazon) to see these.  But so worth supporting local business...

;0)

--Erik

[Kenngo1969]

My thoughts parallel those of Meadowchik.  Ultimately, whatever power Satan  gets is the power that I give him through my choices and my actions.  If I pay him no heed and refuse to do his bidding, he has no power, at least, not through me.  There are others who pay him entirely too much heed and who gladly do his bidding, and, sadly, they will continue to wreak havoc in this fallen world through their choices and their actions.  Whatever consequences are visited upon others through those earthly choices and actions, however they may remain unaddressed and unrecompensed in mortality, ultimately, God will not be mocked.  As they sowed in mortality, so shall they reap in eternity.