Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Both are absolutes where the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ is concerned, and giving up ground on either of them is not a virtue -- nor is staking out an advocacy position against them. Well, the way I see it is if one is willing to at least consider the miracle of the resurrection, one should also be willing to allow for a few lesser miracles. Edited October 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Well, the way I see it is if one is willing to at least consider the miracle of the resurrection, one should also be willing to allow for a few lesser miracles. When considering miracles and revelation, it becomes a matter of consistency in what one is or is not willing to accept. For example, if Nephi knew about the virgin birth of Jesus, His baptism by John and His mortal ministry. hundreds of years before they happened, and if Nephi knew of the mission of Joseph Smith and knew his first name and that he would be called after the name of his father, and if Nephi had this knowledge many centuries before Joseph Smith's birth, why couldn't Isaiah have known and prophesied about Cyrus, emperor of Persia, a hundred years before he lived? Edited October 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 3
Rivers Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 On 10/13/2016 at 2:31 PM, DBMormon said: - Does your spiritual experience with Mormonism trump any contradictory evidence no matter how weighty? Yes. In a sense. All these issues that you brought up in the opening post have, for me, become minutia. Noah's flood, deutero Isaiah, Adam-God, etc. are all interesting topics, but I have come to a place where the day-to-day experiences of church membership are most important for me. 4
DBMormon Posted October 21, 2016 Author Posted October 21, 2016 11 hours ago, Rivers said: Yes. In a sense. All these issues that you brought up in the opening post have, for me, become minutia. Noah's flood, deutero Isaiah, Adam-God, etc. are all interesting topics, but I have come to a place where the day-to-day experiences of church membership are most important for me. UNDERSTOOD. That whether ultimately true or not it is good for you and bears fruit that you see as positive?
Rivers Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 1 hour ago, DBMormon said: UNDERSTOOD. That whether ultimately true or not it is good for you and bears fruit that you see as positive? What is truth? 1
mfbukowski Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Rivers said: What is truth? That is the issue
Scott Lloyd Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 On 10/21/2016 at 5:30 PM, Rivers said: What is truth? On 10/21/2016 at 7:11 PM, mfbukowski said: That is the issue It's what Pilate said. And Johnny Cash. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 On 10/21/2016 at 2:49 PM, DBMormon said: UNDERSTOOD. That whether ultimately true or not it is good for you and bears fruit that you see as positive? Exactly- because ultimately even if we believe it is true, it is based on what we THINK "truth" is In fact what you just said is similar to the pragmatic theory of truth- more on that in the links below if you want to check them out. If you believe truth is only "truth" if it is scientifically provable, then it is still your BELIEF about what truth is, that forces you to think that something NOT scientifically verifiable could not be true. So even the belief that truth is equal to scientific verifiability is itself an unprovable belief! It is not unlike a religious position in itself. That is a much disputed view in philosophy which virtually no professional academic philosopher still holds. So belief is at the crux of everything- it takes unprovable beliefs to even define what truth is in the first place!! There are many other theories of what truth is, and I would suggest that if you are serious about taking philosophy, you might read an article like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Theories_of_truth http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_theory_of_truth 1
CV75 Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Exactly- because ultimately even if we believe it is true, it is based on what we THINK "truth" is So the facilitation of any good-faith discussion of the answers people get along the spectrum of reason and emotion would require acknowledgement of this most tent-expanding theory of truth. What I find hilarious is that the antonym of "reasoning" is "reality" and "truth" which are near synonyms to "irrationality" and "nonsense." http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/reasoning?s=t 1
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, CV75 said: So the facilitation of any good-faith discussion of the answers people get along the spectrum of reason and emotion would require acknowledgement of this most tent-expanding theory of truth. What I find hilarious is that the antonym of "reasoning" is "reality" and "truth" which are near synonyms to "irrationality" and "nonsense." http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/reasoning?s=t Well its obvious that "truth" is something within a sentence and not in the world. We do not have true chairs or true cars or buildings. We have true sentences. We use the word "true church" which actually means the church with BELIEFS which are true- according to the faith community itself. For us that means Moroni 10:- truth as revelation, Alma 32- truth is what bears fruit- and D&C 93- truth only exists in specific "spheres". There is for example a scientific truth "sphere" and a religious truth "sphere" just as there are sociological "truths" and physical "truths" and truths about the right plumbing tools to use for a job and other truths for electricians. Pres Kimball on Absolute Truth: (hint - it turns out its not absolute at all....) Quote Experience in one field does not automatically create expertise in another field. Expertise in religion comes from personal righteousness and from revelation. The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith: “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it.” (D&C 93:30.) A geologist who has discovered truths about the structure of the earth may be oblivious to the truths God has given us about the eternal nature of the family. If I can only make clear this one thing, it will give us a basis on which to build. Man cannot discover God or his ways by mere mental processes. One must be governed by the laws which control the realm into which he is delving. To become a plumber, one must study the laws which govern plumbing. He must know stresses and strains, temperatures at which pipes will freeze, laws which govern steam, hot water, expansion, contraction, and so forth. One might know much about plumbing and be a complete failure in training children or getting along with men. One might be the best of bookkeepers and yet not know anything of electricity. One might know much about buying and selling groceries and be absolutely ignorant of bridge building. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng Edited October 24, 2016 by mfbukowski 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: So even the belief that truth is equal to scientific verifiability is itself an unprovable belief! It is not unlike a religious position in itself. As I've tried to teach my students, all theorems rest on postulates. All. 3
CV75 Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 11 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Well its obvious that "truth" is something within a sentence and not in the world. We do not have true chairs or true cars or buildings. We have true sentences. We use the word "true church" which actually means the church with BELIEFS which are true- according to the faith community itself. For us that means Moroni 10:- truth as revelation, Alma 32- truth is what bears fruit- and D&C 93- truth only exists in specific "spheres". There is for example a scientific truth "sphere" and a religious truth "sphere" just as there are sociological "truths" and physical "truths" and truths about the right plumbing tools to use for a job and other truths for electricians. Pres Kimball on Absolute Truth: (hint - it turns out its not absolute at all....) https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng This is utter nonsense -- in other words, it is true! (1 Corinthians 2:14)
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, CV75 said: This is utter nonsense -- in other words, it is true! (1 Corinthians 2:14) Thanks- brilliant quote, gotta get it in here Quote 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: Paul was not a theologian, hey?
Recommended Posts