President Nelson: Goal is not to increase the number of Church members

[JLHPROF]

45 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

If you want big and spacious buildings I guess..

I want the house of the Lord, the temple of my God.
More important than anything.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Odds of President Monson standing in Conference and admitting that one of the reasons the missionary age was lowered was to stem the massive tide of under-20s leaving the Church: Approximately 0.0%

Why? Would it be something to be ashamed of?

In any event, I continue to believe the primary purpose was to give a substantial boost to the missionary force -- which it has done.  

 If it has the side benefit of keeping thousands of 18-20-year-olds from drifting into and languishing in inactivity and putting them to work saving others' souls and in the process their own, well, so much the better. It is thus a brilliant move all around. 

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Much of it depends on how the individual receives the gospel message and subsequently exercises his/her agency, no?

Have no idea.  How we intend to measure people's joy is beyond me.  I suppose we can do things like say joy is increased if things like suicide and cases of depression go down, but those often are caused by mental illness.  Is mental illness' best remedy this joy we speak of?  If so, why are there LDS who have mental illness? 

Edited October 6, 2016 by stemelbow

[UtahTexan]

18 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Well however you want to put it, it's all the same.  The goal is to get people baptized which also happens to add to the numbers of the church and may happen to increase joy in some (although it may also not bring any joy at all). 

Though I get your need to be negative, let me disagree with you.

Let's say I am a coach for a kids baseball team.  Let's say I have a goal to get kids into shape.  I go out and teach kids to work out, run, eat right.....some of those kids decide to join my baseball team.

Now...was my goal to increase my team numbers?  No.  Was it one of the end results?  yes.

Does that make sense?

When I was a missionary back in the 80s, I was told to forget about baptisms.  I was told to go teach.  Go out and spread the Gospel.  If people wanted to be baptized, fine....

It was a great mission.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Interesting thought.

I like your term "dominion growth," with its scriptural allusion.

Another possible term, not as catchy, might be influence expansion.

The power of influence cannot be underestimated, that's for sure. It is amazing to me how much influence one person can generate by being kind in general, leaving a place better than they found it (even in the smallest matter, and even when no one is looking) and doing this while also belonging to community, fraternal, service or other organizations. This is how the light of Christ (the most fundamental influence we have for good) spreads throughout a home, community, a nation, etc. I think the key is to make sure we're personally aligned with the Lord and His servants.

[UtahTexan]

12 hours ago, cinepro said:

Odds of President Monson standing in Conference and admitting that one of the reasons the missionary age was lowered was to stem the massive tide of under-20s leaving the Church: Approximately 0.0%

If you have definitive proof that was why it was done, please share.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

From a high level, this particular video also gave a nice view into how the Brethren work:  GA's and others are assigned to go do some research, they come back with both data and wonderful examples from around the globe of things that were successful at a local level and ought to be considered for the entire church.

Having been part of this process on some key issues being studied in the early 1980's, I would say it is but one of the methods the Brethren use to move the kingdom ahead.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, UtahTexan said:

Though I get your need to be negative, let me disagree with you.

Let's say I am a coach for a kids baseball team.  Let's say I have a goal to get kids into shape.  I go out and teach kids to work out, run, eat right.....some of those kids decide to join my baseball team.

Now...was my goal to increase my team numbers?  No.  Was it one of the end results?  yes.

Does that make sense?

When I was a missionary back in the 80s, I was told to forget about baptisms.  I was told to go teach.  Go out and spread the Gospel.  If people wanted to be baptized, fine....

It was a great mission.

I don't see how you're disagreeing with me at all. 

[UtahTexan]

10 hours ago, Jeanne said:

If you want big and spacious buildings I guess..

Is there something wrong with nice spacious buildings?

[CV75]

15 hours ago, cinepro said:

 

Maybe it's just me, but it really seems like President Nelson is describing the same thing.  The first part is the "what", and the second part is the "why".  This smacks more of doublespeak than of anything insightful. 

There's a difference between a goal, the strategies to attain it, and the measures of either. The goal is to bring joy to the people of the world. Teaching and baptizing are strategies; the missionaries do other things as well. Measures are used to assess the effectiveness of the strategies and the achievement of the goal.

Teaching and baptizing not only brings joy to the taught and the baptized, but joy to anyone who is positively influenced by those individuals. The world in general becomes a better place when people act on what they are taught and and what they commit to do when they are baptized, by the power of their influence as I described a post or two above.

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Have no idea.  How we intend to measure people's joy is beyond me.  I suppose we can do things like say joy is increased if things like suicide and cases of depression go down, but those often are caused by mental illness.  Is mental illness' best remedy this joy we speak of?  If so, why are there LDS who have mental illness? 

I don't think joy can be measured, even though that is the goal. Faith and grace must take over once we do all we can do to to establish and carry out goals, strategies, measures, etc. So we try to measure what we can in terms of growth, real growth, and what I see as a new type of growth I mentioned yesterday.

[stemelbow]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I don't think joy can be measured, even though that is the goal. Faith and grace must take over once we do all we can do to to establish and carry out goals, strategies, measures, etc. So we try to measure what we can in terms of growth, real growth, and what I see as a new type of growth I mentioned yesterday.

So we have a goal that is meaningless?  If we set a goal and we have no way to measure it, what's the point?  We change the goal to numbers in order to get a feel for where we are? 

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

While proselyting missionaries give substantial time and effort to community or humanitarian service, that is not primarily what the Lord calls them to do.

If you want that to change, perhaps you'd best take it up with Him in your prayers. My hunch is He has His plans well in place, though.

Why assume that the current process is perfect or completely aligns with God's wishes?  History has taught that we often have a lot of room to approve in many many situations.  I think the gospel calls for service more than it calls for baptisms.  And as someone who's served a proselyting mission, my experience is that very very little community and humanitarian service was provided as part of the program.  

 

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I want the house of the Lord, the temple of my God.
More important than anything.

Well...you've got plenty.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So we have a goal that is meaningless?  If we set a goal and we have no way to measure it, what's the point?  We change the goal to numbers in order to get a feel for where we are? 

You can't be serious LOL (Moses 1:39). What is the "end of the atonement" if not its goal?

Edited October 6, 2016 by CV75

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Why assume that the current process is perfect or completely aligns with God's wishes?  

Because Jesus Christ calls and anoints servants to convey His will and govern His Church according to His wishes via revelation.

Quote

History has taught that we often have a lot of room to approve in many many situations.

If so, that will be revealed to the anointed servants of God. I trust them to act in the capacity of their divine callings and roles. I have considerably less confidence in the word and will of faultfinders and ark steadiiers.

Quote

  I think the gospel calls for service more than it calls for baptisms.  

I don't accept the presumption that fulfilling Christ's divine commission to preach the gospel of repentance unto all nations and kindred, and baptizing by authority all those who will receive it is anything less than noble service. Or that the gospel calls for that form of service in any less degree than it calls for other forms of service.

Quote

And as someone who's served a proselyting mission, my experience is that very very little community and humanitarian service was provided as part of the program.

Be that as it may, your experience is anecdotal. But it's a moot point anyway, as missionaries serve mankind by doing what they were called to do.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

42 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You can't be serious LOL (Moses 1:39). What is the "end of the atonement" if not its goal?

Are you suggesting God doesn't have a good way to measure how his goal of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is doing? 

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Are you suggesting God doesn't have a good way to measure how his goal of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is doing? 

Yes, I am apparently, as far as you are concerned!

But I’ve offered three ways the Church is measuring the goal to “bring joy to the people of the world.”

And if you look at the way the Lord measures His goals, it is to achieve “one” and “many” and “all,” depending on who He is working with. When he works with us, it is only “one” (D&C 18:15), at least one at a time. When He works with the rulers in the Church of God, it is “many” (D&C 18:21, 22; 138:56) which are numbered unto Him (Moses 1:35). When He works with His Son, it is “all” (D&C 18:11-13); which seems to occur one at a time (D&C 88:56).

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Are you suggesting God doesn't have a good way to measure how his goal of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is doing?

I don't really worry about this too much.

Christ said
"John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

D&C 76:41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Sounds like immortality is a given for almost everyone.
Now where we get to spend our immortal lives is a different question.
 

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, UtahTexan said:

If you have definitive proof that was why it was done, please share.

If that wasn't one of the reasons it was done, then that only increases the likelihood that I'm right about the low probability.  

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Because Jesus Christ calls and anoints servants to convey His will and govern His Church according to His wishes via revelation.

If so, that will be revealed to the anointed servants of God. I trust them to act in the capacity of their divine callings and roles. I have considerably less confidence in the word and will of faultfinders and ark steadiiers.

I don't accept the presumption that fulfilling Christ's divine commission to preach the gospel of repentance unto all nations and kindred, and baptizing by authority all those who will receive it as anything less than noble service. Or htat the gospel calls for that form of service in any less degree than it calls for other forms of service.

Be that as it may, your experience is anecdotal. But it's a moot point anyway, as missionaries serve mankind by doing what they were called to do.

 

@hope_for_things -- Looks like Scott has deemed you an "ark steadier".  Welcome to the club!  PM me with your address and I'll send your official membership card.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

@hope_for_things -- Looks like Scott has deemed you an "ark steadier".  Welcome to the club!  PM me with your address and I'll send your official membership card.

 

I didn't say hope for things is an ark steadier.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn't say hope for things is an ark steadier.

Yep... right.

[Scott Lloyd]

Last week, just before general conference I attended a meeting Collegium Aesculapium, an association for LDS physicians.

The president of the association, Dr. Donald Doty, former chairman of the Church's Missionary Department Health Services, made an interesting statement that bears some relevance to what we are discussing at the moment. He said:

Quote

The number of volunteers and service missionaries is hard to note because there isn’t a reliable way for us to keep that statistic, but it is many, many more times than that of the full-time missionaries.

When he said "full-time missionaries" I took it to mean he meant full-time proselyting missionaries.

So I take it from this that there is a plethora of Church-service volunteers and missionaries engaged in service other than proselyting, and further, there appears to be plenty of opportunity to serve for those whose interests and skills lie in the area of health-care and other forms of service other than full-time proselyting.

Thus, it would appear we don't need to be watering down or changing the focus from fulfillment of Christ's grand commission to go into all the world and take the gospel to all people, and, for those who are receptive, to baptize them unto salvation (see Mark 16:15).

 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Last week, just before general conference I attended a meeting Collegium Aesculapium, an association for LDS physicians.

The president of the association, Dr. Donald Doty, former chairman of the Church's Missionary Department Health Services, made an interesting statement that bears some relevance to what we are discussing at the moment. He said:

 

When he said "full-time missionaries" I took it to mean he meant full-time proselyting missionaries.

So I take it from this that there is a plethora of Church-service volunteers and missionaries engaged in service other than proselyting, and further, there appears to be plenty of opportunity to serve for those whose interests and skills lie in the area of health-care and other forms of service other than full-time proselyting.

Thus, it would appear we don't need to be watering down or changing the focus from fulfillment of Christ's grand commission to go into all the world and take the gospel to all people, and, for those who are receptive, to baptize them unto salvation (see Mark 16:15).

 

I don't know about you but I volunteer my time to the Church.  We're all a bunch of volunteers.  There are plenty more of us than the full-time proselyting missionaries for sure.