Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) In his conference talk President Russell M Nelson gave the reason missionaries leave their homes to preach the gospel: Quote Their goal is not to increase the number of Church members. Rather, our missionaries teach and baptize to bring joy to the people of the world. This might be an eye-opener for some. But I think it brings needed perspective, both to believers and to others. Edited October 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 7
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 President Nelson, last I heard, was chairman of the Missionary Executive Council of the Church, so he speaks here with authenticity. Don't know whether he handed that assignment off to someone else when he became president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
stemelbow Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: In his conference talk President Russell M Nelson gave the reason missionaries leave their homes to preach the gospel: This might be an eye-opener for some. But I think it brings needed perspective, both to believers and to others. Well however you want to put it, it's all the same. The goal is to get people baptized which also happens to add to the numbers of the church and may happen to increase joy in some (although it may also not bring any joy at all). 1
rockpond Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: In his conference talk President Russell M Nelson gave the reason missionaries leave their homes to preach the gospel: This might be an eye-opener for some. But I think it brings needed perspective, both to believers and to others. Yes, I loved that emphasis that he made and that should be the focus of missionaries and members alike. But from the institutional perspective, it is just semantics because baptism increases the number of church members. Though, I will definitely agree with your headline that I don't think the Brethren's top priority is to increase members. That seems readily apparent.
JLHPROF Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Though, I will definitely agree with your headline that I don't think the Brethren's top priority is to increase members. That seems readily apparent. It never has been. Scripture indicates that it will be very few numerically who choose to return to our Father. Most won't want to do what is necessary. Fortunately according to Christ virtually everyone will at least be saved. And that will be the limit of blessings some people are seeking. Edited October 5, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Well however you want to put it, it's all the same. The goal is to get people baptized which also happens to add to the numbers of the church and may happen to increase joy in some (although it may also not bring any joy at all). 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: Yes, I loved that emphasis that he made and that should be the focus of missionaries and members alike. But from the institutional perspective, it is just semantics because baptism increases the number of church members. Though, I will definitely agree with your headline that I don't think the Brethren's top priority is to increase members. That seems readily apparent. Quibble though you might, the statement from President Nelson is what it is, and I have quoted it accurately. 1
ksfisher Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: President Nelson, last I heard, was chairman of the Missionary Executive Council of the Church, so he speaks here with authenticity. Don't know whether he handed that assignment off to someone else when he became president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Elder Oaks is the chairman now I believe. (this may be why he emphasized missionary work in his conference address, where I don't believe this is one of the usual topics he tends to cover) 1
rockpond Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Quibble though you might, the statement from President Nelson is what it is, and I have quoted it accurately. Quibbling? I'm sorry... were we not supposed to discuss the item you posted on a discussion board? 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Elder Oaks is the chairman now I believe. (this may be why he emphasized missionary work in his conference address, where I don't believe this is one of the usual topics he tends to cover) He has had that assignment for quite a few years at least.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, rockpond said: Quibbling? I'm sorry... were we not supposed to discuss the item you posted on a discussion board? You may discuss all you like. You may even quibble. Just as I am entitled to identify quibbling when I see it.
rockpond Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You may discuss all you like. You may even quibble. Just as I am entitled to identify quibbling when I see it. Likewise I'm entitled to call you out on the uselessness of such a childish response. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Well however you want to put it, it's all the same. The goal is to get people baptized which also happens to add to the numbers of the church and may happen to increase joy in some (although it may also not bring any joy at all). In theory, I suppose we could swell the rolls of the Church in some areas with individuals who were unconverted and uncommitted to living the doctrine of Christ. That would not be increasing their joy and would not be what I believe President Nelson has in mind when he identifies the goal. So no, it's not necessarily the same thing. Edited October 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Gray Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: In theory, I suppose we could swell the rolls of the Church in some areas with individuals who were unconverted and uncommitted to living the doctrine of Christ. That would not be increasing their joy and would not be what I believe President Nelson has in mind when he identifies the goal. So no, it's not necessarily the same thing. That is exactly what we've been doing for decades. I'm glad the approach is apparently changing. 2
hope_for_things Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: In his conference talk President Russell M Nelson gave the reason missionaries leave their homes to preach the gospel: This might be an eye-opener for some. But I think it brings needed perspective, both to believers and to others. I like this, a needed step in the right direction. It will take time to change the culture though. I think it would be even better if greater emphasis was given to service and humanitarian work, rather than purely focused on teaching and baptizing for the young missionaries.
Boanerges Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 No quibbling here. That statement jumped to at me when he said it. The gospel brings joy and peace to people, even if they aren't baptized although eventually in order to live the gospel baptism would become necessary (as per the Doctrine of Christ as outlined in 3 Nephi). 1
Jeanne Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 Whatever happened to..."This is My Work and My Glory..to bring to past....? That IS the work isn't it???
stemelbow Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: In theory, I suppose we could swell the rolls of the Church in some areas with individuals who were unconverted and uncommitted to living the doctrine of Christ. That would not be increasing their joy and would not be what I believe President Nelson has in mind when he identifies the goal. So no, it's not necessarily the same thing. Sure. I'm curuius how many get baptized and don't have their joy increase. What if the number of convert baptisms is far less than the number of individuals who increase their joy? That'd be sad, but it'd be an interesting thing to measure if we were able. Instead we, I suppose, just assume everyone who joins has an increase in joy, and that those who remain in also maintain joy. it is our goal after all. Some might wonder about setting a goal we have no reasonable way to measure. But I'm just being too difficult. We should be happy to accept flowery worded things.
JLHPROF Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 53 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Whatever happened to..."This is My Work and My Glory..to bring to past....? That IS the work isn't it??? Eternal life and immortality are a done deal. Christ's sacrifice made that happen. All that is left for us is to determine HOW we want to spend our immortal eternal lives.
Jeanne Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Eternal life and immortality are a done deal. Christ's sacrifice made that happen. All that is left for us is to determine HOW we want to spend our immortal eternal lives. Right...and you want others to know this too.
JLHPROF Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Right...and you want others to know this too. Don't you like to know the options when you have to make a choice? God wants informed decisions.
JLHPROF Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 2 hours ago, rockpond said: Yes, I loved that emphasis that he made and that should be the focus of missionaries and members alike. But from the institutional perspective, it is just semantics because baptism increases the number of church members. Though, I will definitely agree with your headline that I don't think the Brethren's top priority is to increase members. That seems readily apparent. Jana Reiss just posted something I think is apropos.http://religionnews.com/2016/10/05/leaked-worldwide-only-25-of-young-single-mormons-are-active-in-the-lds-church/ The current activity rate for Young Single Adults is 30% in North America and 20% internationally, with an overall worldwide activity rate of about 25%. Of those who are inactive, many are people the local bishops have never heard of and have no way of contacting. The Church’s internal research shows that most young members who leave do so before age 20. Mormons are a little older now when they get married; according to Wilkins, “the average age for members of the church who marry outside of the temple is 27 for men and 25 for women. When they marry in the temple, it’s 24 for men and 23 for women. Those are numbers, averages, that have been increasing over the last couple of decades, and so they cause significant concern. The principle concern is that delaying marriage in an era of high immorality—more, increasing access to pornography—constitutes significant, very high risk for our YSAs. What we’ve noticed is that church activity begins to decline in the teenage years and continues to decline into the twenties.” Church activity for singles is much lower than for married people of the same age, who are twice as likely to remain active. Drawing upon social science research by Robert Wuthnow of Princeton University, Wilkins concludes that across religions, “young single adults don’t feel as welcome. They don’t feel as needed. They’re not given positions and opportunities to serve as much, and they don’t feel that their interests and needs are being addressed.” Only 6% of international members have married in the temple by age 30, “and that’s been declining over the last couple of decades. The implication of that for us is significant. It’s beyond what’s happening with the YSAs and becomes an issue of the establishment of the Church as a multigenerational institution. The elements that would be required to have a multigenerational church include, first, retaining our young people throughout their youth and YSAhood, having them marry in the temple, and then having them have children. Each of those three areas shows declining rates in the last couple of decades. We’re having declining activity, we’re having declining marriages in the temple, and the fertility rates are decreasing.” Around the world, there are only 70 active single men for every 100 single women. Many of these single women are better educated than their male LDS counterparts. 85% of YSAs around the world “are not in YSA wards, and are often invisible to church leaders.” Of the minority of single adults who remain active, statistically, very few hold positions of significant authority in conventional/family wards, like as a member of a bishopric or an auxiliary president. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, rockpond said: Likewise I'm entitled to call you out on the uselessness of such a childish response. If you say so. I choose to take President Nelson at his word.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: I like this, a needed step in the right direction. It will take time to change the culture though. I think it would be even better if greater emphasis was given to service and humanitarian work, rather than purely focused on teaching and baptizing for the young missionaries. While proselyting missionaries give substantial time and effort to community or humanitarian service, that is not primarily what the Lord calls them to do. If you want that to change, perhaps you'd best take it up with Him in your prayers. My hunch is He has His plans well in place, though. Edited October 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted October 5, 2016 Author Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Sure. I'm curuius how many get baptized and don't have their joy increase. What if the number of convert baptisms is far less than the number of individuals who increase their joy? That'd be sad, but it'd be an interesting thing to measure if we were able. Instead we, I suppose, just assume everyone who joins has an increase in joy, and that those who remain in also maintain joy. it is our goal after all. Some might wonder about setting a goal we have no reasonable way to measure. But I'm just being too difficult. We should be happy to accept flowery worded things. Much of it depends on how the individual receives the gospel message and subsequently exercises his/her agency, no?
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