President Nelson: Goal is not to increase the number of Church members

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Last week, just before general conference I attended a meeting Collegium Aesculapium, an association for LDS physicians.

The president of the association, Dr. Donald Doty, former chairman of the Church's Missionary Department Health Services, made an interesting statement that bears some relevance to what we are discussing at the moment. He said:

 

When he said "full-time missionaries" I took it to mean he meant full-time proselyting missionaries.

So I take it from this that there is a plethora of Church-service volunteers and missionaries engaged in service other than proselyting, and further, there appears to be plenty of opportunity to serve for those whose interests and skills lie in the area of health-care and other forms of service other than full-time proselyting.

Thus, it would appear we don't need to be watering down or changing the focus from fulfillment of Christ's grand commission to go into all the world and take the gospel to all people, and, for those who are receptive, to baptize them unto salvation (see Mark 16:15).

 

What if increasing the number of service hours actually leads toward more opportunities to teach and baptize?

p.s.  How many people did Christ baptize during his mortal life?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, rockpond said:

p.s.  How many people did Christ baptize during his mortal life?

More than you'd think.
Regardless of the record.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know about you but I volunteer my time to the Church.  We're all a bunch of volunteers.  There are plenty more of us than the full-time proselyting missionaries for sure. 

His context was healthcare and humanitarian service by Church volunteers. This was an LDS physician speaking to an association of LDS physicians over which he was the president.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What if increasing the number of service hours actually leads toward more opportunities to teach and baptize?

p.s.  How many people did Christ baptize during his mortal life?

Perhaps it's significant that Christ, before he began his mortal ministry, sought out one who had authority and was himself baptized.

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

More than you'd think.
Regardless of the record.

How do you know this?

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What if increasing the number of service hours actually leads toward more opportunities to teach and baptize?

 

If that's the case, let you and I and everyone else give plenty of service hours, and those whose calling is to teach and baptize will have the opportunities rising therefrom.

Quote

p.s.  How many people did Christ baptize during his mortal life?

I don't know, but he did baptize. See John 4:2, Joseph Smith Translation.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps it's significant that Christ, before he began his mortal ministry, sought out one who had authority and was himself baptized.

That's definitely significant.

My point was just that if we are going to invoke "Christ's grand commission" as the guide to our missionary work, we ought to try to understand what that is.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

How do you know this?

John 4:2, Joseph Smith Translation. See my prior post.

(You have to go to the JST, because it amends what is in the KJV and other Bible translations.)

It says there that Christ baptized, but He did not baptize so many as did His disciples.

From this, I infer that mortal Messiah had a role similar to the Church leaders of today, who might baptize occasionally, but whose primary role is to preach the gospel, lead the Church and to bless lives, leaving it to the full-time missionaries to do most of the baptizing and the preliminary work leading thereto.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Because Jesus Christ calls and anoints servants to convey His will and govern His Church according to His wishes via revelation.

Imperfect servants who make mistakes all the time and don't align with his wishes on a frequent basis as history has shown.  

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If so, that will be revealed to the anointed servants of God. I trust them to act in the capacity of their divine callings and roles. I have considerably less confidence in the word and will of faultfinders and ark steadiiers.

You seem ignorant of history, much of revelation comes from the bottom up, and not from the top down.  Cultural has a huge influence on the constantly evolving doctrines of religion throughout history.  You sound like you're looking at the world through rose colored glasses.  And I'll ignore the negative accusations.  

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't accept the presumption that fulfilling Christ's divine commission to preach the gospel of repentance unto all nations and kindred, and baptizing by authority all those who will receive it as anything less than noble service. Or htat the gospel calls for that form of service in any less degree than it calls for other forms of service.

Its about prioritization.  What's more important in the grand scheme of things?  Seems to me that in a church that acknowledges that everyone will be baptized by proxy at some point in the eternal scheme, that baptism in this life has a much lower value of priority than actually helping others who suffer temporally.   

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, your experience is anecdotal. But it's a moot point anyway, as missionaries serve mankind by doing what they were called to do.

Try a little thought experiment with me. Lets assume that you could take a time machine 100 years into the future.  What you'll likely find is that the missionary program is vastly different than our 2016 missionary program.  Perhaps it includes many of the suggestions I'm discussing, or perhaps its different in other ways.  

Picture an encounter with someone who thinks very much like you do.  This person is supremely confident that the 2116 missionary program is nearly perfect, and is resistant to any ideas coming from contemporaries that certain aspects of the program ought to be changed or outdated.  

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

How do you know this?

In Mormon theology using logical deduction.
Of course, if you don't believe in Mormonism you'd have no reason to think so.

Christ commands baptism:

• Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
  16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
   
• John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Logically, wouldn't the apostles and followers of Christ called have had to be baptized at some point?  John the Baptist, the only legal administrator for that ordinance was killed at some point.  Who would be the logical person to hold authority after his death?
Christ performed other ordinances for his apostles didn't he?  Sacrament, Washing and anointing.

Proof - nope.  Consistent with Mormon doctrine - Sure.

Always remember -
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
 

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by JLHPROF

[rockpond]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If that's the case, let you and I and everyone else give plenty of service hours, and those whose calling is to teach and baptize will have the opportunities rising therefrom.

I agree.  And I don't think it precludes the missionaries from performing service either.  There are areas, like ours, where it is extraordinarily difficult for the missionaries to be productive during the day because it is mostly just the mothers at home (husbands at work) so a pair of elders can't go in.  Yes, they could pair up with members but in young wards like ours where moms are occupied with their own children, it is easier said than done.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution, but I'd love to see some flexibility allowed.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

In Mormon theology using logical deduction.
Of course, if you don't believe in Mormonism you'd have no reason to think so.

Christ commands baptism:

• Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
  16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
   
• John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Logically, wouldn't the apostles and followers of Christ called have had to be baptized at some point?  John the Baptist, the only legal administrator for that ordinance was killed at some point.  Who would be the logical person to hold authority after his death?
Christ performed other ordinances for his apostles didn't he?  Sacrament, Washing and anointing.

Proof - nope.  Consistent with Mormon doctrine - Sure.

Always remember -
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
 

 

And yet we still have no record of it.  Nor was it mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  Just the JST verse that Scott cited.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I agree.  And I don't think it precludes the missionaries from performing service either.

Who said this is being precluded?
 

Quote

 

 There are areas, like ours, where it is extraordinarily difficult for the missionaries to be productive during the day because it is mostly just the mothers at home (husbands at work) so a pair of elders can't go in.  Yes, they could pair up with members but in young wards like ours where moms are occupied with their own children, it is easier said than done.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution, but I'd love to see some flexibility allowed.

 

Have you looked into the matter? Maybe the missions in the Church are being about as flexible as they can be under the circumstances.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Who said this is being precluded?
 

Have you looked into the matter? Maybe the missions in the Church are being about as flexible as they can be under the circumstances?

 

I only know what's going on in my ward.

But if you are good with the concept that missionaries could be doing much more service work than we really have no disagreement.  Based on your previous comments, it seemed that you were opposed to that.

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

 

Its about prioritization.  What's more important in the grand scheme of things?  Seems to me that in a church that acknowledges that everyone will be baptized by proxy at some point in the eternal scheme, that baptism in this life has a much lower value of priority than actually helping others who suffer temporally.   

 

As I commented earlier, Christ, before beginning his ministry was baptized.  Prioritization. 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Try a little thought experiment with me. Lets assume that you could take a time machine 100 years into the future.  What you'll likely find is that the missionary program is vastly different than our 2016 missionary program.  Perhaps it includes many of the suggestions I'm discussing, or perhaps its different in other ways.  

Picture an encounter with someone who thinks very much like you do.  This person is supremely confident that the 2116 missionary program is nearly perfect, and is resistant to any ideas coming from contemporaries that certain aspects of the program ought to be changed or outdated.  

"Someone who thinks very much like [ I ] do" would be apt to understand fully that the Church is governed by on-going revelation and that practices might change in the future pursuant to the fulfillment of said ongoing revelation. Thus, "someone who thinks very much like [ I ] do, would not be surprised in the least to find that this had transpired over time.

It would appear you don't understand "someone who thinks very much like [ I ] do" as well as you think you do.
 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

And yet we still have no record of it.  Nor was it mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  Just the JST verse that Scott cited.

And as I said, logical reasoning based on Mormon doctrines on baptism.  JST is also part of Mormonism.
I often wonder at those who expect Mormons to prove their doctrines without using any Mormon sources.  Like asking a Christian to prove Christ without the NT.

Regardless of source, I fail to see why we would think Christ wouldn't baptize.  We know we have very little of his life recorded.

To me it's the same as whether or not he married.  The text doesn't specify that he was, but there is plenty of logical reasoning that points in that direction.

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

In Mormon theology using logical deduction.
Of course, if you don't believe in Mormonism you'd have no reason to think so.

Christ commands baptism:

• Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
  16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
   
• John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Logically, wouldn't the apostles and followers of Christ called have had to be baptized at some point?  John the Baptist, the only legal administrator for that ordinance was killed at some point.  Who would be the logical person to hold authority after his death?
Christ performed other ordinances for his apostles didn't he?  Sacrament, Washing and anointing.

Proof - nope.  Consistent with Mormon doctrine - Sure.

Always remember -
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
 

 

And, as we see in John 4:2, Joseph Smith Translation, Jesus did indeed baptize.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And as I said, logical reasoning based on Mormon doctrines on baptism.  JST is also part of Mormonism.
I often wonder at those who expect Mormons to prove their doctrines without using any Mormon sources.  Like asking a Christian to prove Christ without the NT.

 

And it is even more of a head scratcher when those who expect Mormons to prove their doctrines without using any Mormon sources are, themselves, professing Mormons who hold local leadership positions in Mormonism.]

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And as I said, logical reasoning based on Mormon doctrines on baptism.  JST is also part of Mormonism.
I often wonder at those who expect Mormons to prove their doctrines without using any Mormon sources.  Like asking a Christian to prove Christ without the NT.

Regardless of source, I fail to see why we would think Christ wouldn't baptize.  We know we have very little of his life recorded.

To me it's the same as whether or not he married.  The text doesn't specify that he was, but there is plenty of logical reasoning that points in that direction.

I didn't say that he didn't baptize.  Per the JST, he did.  But that's the only verse we've got.  I also didn't ask you to prove something without using Mormon sources.  The Bible, Book of Mormon, and JST are all Mormon sources.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And it is even more of a head scratcher when those who expect Mormons to prove their doctrines without using any Mormon sources are, themselves, professing Mormons who hold leadership positions in Mormonism.]

Who here is expecting anyone to prove something without using Mormon sources?  Total strawman.

ETA:  I'm serious, I'd actually like an answer from you and JHLPROF to that question.

Edited October 6, 2016 by rockpond

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

And yet we still have no record of it.  Nor was it mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  Just the JST verse that Scott cited.

Do you deny the JST verse that I cited?

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you deny the JST verse that I cited?

Nope.  I've acknowledged it repeatedly (and credited you for remembering it) and never said anything to deny it.

Edited October 6, 2016 by rockpond

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

Who here is expecting anyone to prove something without using Mormon sources?  Total strawman.

Oh don't play so innocent. 

18 minutes ago, rockpond said:

And yet we still have no record of it.  Nor was it mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  Just the JST verse that Scott cited.

JST is the record of it.
But you say we have no record of it.
Implying that we cannot use the JST as the record for some reason (I can guess the reasons).

Christ was baptized.
Christ baptized.
Christ commanded baptism.
Christ listed baptism as a requirement to enter his kingdom

Not that you were disagreeing with that.  But you seemed to question the importance due to how few Christ baptized personally.


 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I only know what's going on in my ward.

But if you are good with the concept that missionaries could be doing much more service work than we really have no disagreement.  Based on your previous comments, it seemed that you were opposed to that.

I'm saying I don't concede that service performed by missionaries -- whose primary calling and role is to teach and to baptize -- is as rare in the missions as you think it is.