President Nelson: Goal is not to increase the number of Church members

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm saying I don't concede that service performed by missionaries -- whose primary calling and role is to teach and to baptize -- is as rare in the missions as you think it is.

 

I don't think it's rare.  I just think it could be more (than what I observe).

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And, as we see in John 4:2, Joseph Smith Translation, Jesus did indeed baptize.

I the John 21...I have always thought that this pertained to a multitude of miracles performed by the Savior.  For all the gatherings in the NT..it doesn't mention where there was baptism.  If I am wrong ..I will concede if you can point that out to me.  The crowds that followed Jesus would surely have written of baptisms???

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh don't play so innocent. 

JST is the record of it.
But you say we have no record of it.
Implying that we cannot use the JST as the record for some reason (I can guess the reasons).

Christ was baptized.
Christ baptized.
Christ commanded baptism.
Christ listed baptism as a requirement to enter his kingdom

Not that you were disagreeing with that.  But you seemed to question the importance due to how few Christ baptized personally.


 

Your insinuations are false.

I never suggested that you prove anything without using Mormon sources.  It's a ridiculous strawman that you and Scott are using.

I acknowledged that we have the JST verse that says he baptized.  And I personally, believe that he baptized.  I also acknowledge that the Bible (a Mormon source) and the Book of Mormon (a Mormon source) don't record Christ doing baptisms.  They tell of his teachings, service, miracles, blessings.  These things speak to the grand commission of Christ (to Scott's point).

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Who here is expecting anyone to prove something without using Mormon sources?  Total strawman.

ETA:  I'm serious, I'd actually like an answer from you and JHLPROF to that question.

I don't speak for JLHPROF, but when you said,

Quote

And yet we still have no record of it [Jesus baptizing].  Nor was it mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  Just the JST verse that Scott cited.

... it sounded to me very much like the Joseph Smith Translation is not credible to you, that you doubt or even deny its account that Jesus baptized, though He did not baptize so many as did his disciples. Why you would do this, I can't say, unless it's because you put no stock in "Mormon' scripture.

If that's not what you meant, please clarify, because you really are leaving me confused at this point regarding your position on this.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

  The crowds that followed Jesus would surely have written of baptisms???

The crowds that followed Jesus left no records.
But Christ spoke of the requirement.  As did the Apostles Paul and Peter.

Who do you think performed the required baptisms if not Christ and his apostles?

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I the John 21...I have always thought that this pertained to a multitude of miracles performed by the Savior.  For all the gatherings in the NT..it doesn't mention where there was baptism.  If I am wrong ..I will concede if you can point that out to me.  The crowds that followed Jesus would surely have written of baptisms???

Did you look at the Joseph Smith Translation of John 4:2? It doesn't sound like it.

The Joseph Smith Translation for John 4:2 states very clearly that Jesus baptized, though he did not baptize so many as his disciples.

And JLHPROF has twice pointed out the scipture that says there were many  things that Jesus did that if they were all to be recroded, the world itslef could not contain the records that should be written.

Thus what we have is, at best, an incomplete record. By virtue of the JST, though, we do know that Jesus baptized.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Your insinuations are false.

I never suggested that you prove anything without using Mormon sources.  It's a ridiculous strawman that you and Scott are using.

I acknowledged that we have the JST verse that says he baptized.  And I personally, believe that he baptized.  I also acknowledge that the Bible (a Mormon source) and the Book of Mormon (a Mormon source) don't record Christ doing baptisms.  They tell of his teachings, service, miracles, blessings.  These things speak to the grand commission of Christ (to Scott's point).

Again, why would this even remain an open question to you if you accept the JST amendment showing that Jesus did baptize? You're not being coherent in this.

[hope_for_things]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Someone who thinks very much like [ I ] do" would be apt to understand fully that the Church is governed by on-going revelation and that practices might change in the future pursuant to the fulfillment of said ongoing revelation. Thus, "someone who thinks very much like [ I ] do, would not be surprised in the least to find that this had transpired over time.

It would appear you don't understand "someone who thinks very much like [ I ] do" as well as you think you do.

I don't understand how you can on one hand believe that the current program aligns with God's will, and at the same time believe that a future program or past program also aligned with God's will.  

You also have a belief that all future changes will be channeled through proper authority, even though past changes have often come from outside parties, culture, grass roots members and all kinds of external influences.  Maybe you could explain what I see as contradictions in your reasoning.  

[JLHPROF]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

I don't understand how you can on one hand believe that the current program aligns with God's will, and at the same time believe that a future program or past program also aligned with God's will.  

You also have a belief that all future changes will be channeled through proper authority, even though past changes have often come from outside parties, culture, grass roots members and all kinds of external influences.  Maybe you could explain what I see as contradictions in your reasoning.  

I agree with this.
 

[Jeanne]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did you look at the Joseph Smith Translation of John 4:2? It doesn't sound like it.

The Joseph Smith Translation for John 4:2 states very clearly that Jesus baptized, though he did not baptize so many as his disciples.

And JLHPROF has twice pointed out the scipture that says there were many  things that Jesus did that if they were all to be recroded, the world itslef could not contain the records that should be written.

Thus what we have is, at best, an incomplete record. By virtue of the JST, though, we do know that Jesus baptized.

 

Thank you for clarifying ..I believe Jesus baptized..we just wouldn't know how many of course.  It is a shame that there wasn't a way to have good record keeping with  those crouds that remain anonymous.  That would have been so interesting.

[hope_for_things]

46 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

As I commented earlier, Christ, before beginning his ministry was baptized.  Prioritization. 

According to the gospel of Mark, Jesus became the son of God at the point of baptism.  According to Luke and Matthew it happened at birth.  According to John he was divine before the creation, and according to Paul he became divine when he was resurrected.  Lots of different opinions from the NT about when Jesus became divine.  Mormonism typically aligns with the Christology of John and takes that even further into Godhood in the preexistence.  

I'm more interested in what Jesus did to others when he ministered anyway.  Did he go around baptizing people or did he go around healing people and preaching love and tolerance.  If Jesus was the model missionary, perhaps we should follow his example first and foremost in our missionary program.  

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for clarifying ..I believe Jesus baptized..we just wouldn't know how many of course.  It is a shame that there wasn't a way to have good record keeping with  those crouds that remain anonymous.  That would have been so interesting.

I would love to know what Joseph was thinking when he altered John 4 to read the opposite of how it reads.  I wonder what was going on historically at that time.  Do we have any good books or essays that go through the timeline of the JST changes and make any attempts to understand some of the influences that might have been happening at the time that Joseph and Sidney were working on it?  This is one area that I haven't done much reading about.  

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm more interested in what Jesus did to others when he ministered anyway.  Did he go around baptizing people or did he go around...and preaching love and tolerance.

I really think some people need to re-read Christ's teachings and sermons.
Maybe start with Matthew 10 in this instance.

Quote

According to the gospel of Mark, Jesus became the son of God at the point of baptism.  According to Luke and Matthew it happened at birth.  According to John he was divine before the creation, and according to Paul he became divine when he was resurrected.  Lots of different opinions from the NT about when Jesus became divine.  

Very interesting observation.  I like it.

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I really think some people need to re-read Christ's teachings and sermons.
Maybe start with Matthew 10 in this instance.

Very interesting observation.  I like it.

Thanks!  I'm feeling pretty good to have JLHPROF agree with a couple of my comments.  Maybe I'm not a completely lost soul after all!  :-) 

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't understand how you can on one hand believe that the current program aligns with God's will, and at the same time believe that a future program or past program also aligned with God's will.  

 

Because conditions can and do change. God might reveal needed adjustments to cope with changing conditions. I don't understand why you (or JLHPROF) would be unable to grasp that.

Quote

You also have a belief that all future changes will be channeled through proper authority, even though past changes have often come from outside parties, culture, grass roots members and all kinds of external influences.  Maybe you could explain what I see as contradictions in your reasoning.  

There is no contradiction at all in my reasoning. While "external influences" or something else might have acted as a catalyst for changes, I don't believe they are implemented ordinarily without seeking and receiving the will of God.

 

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

  If Jesus was the model missionary, perhaps we should follow his example first and foremost in our missionary program.  

We should follow the example of Jesus in missionary work as well as in all we do.  We should do as he commanded.  Here are some examples of what he taught the Nephites concerning baptism:

• 3 Nephi 11:38

  38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

• 3 Nephi 11:37

  37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

• 3 Nephi 18:16

  16 And as I have prayed among you even so shall ye pray in my church, among my people who do repent and are baptized in my name. Behold I am the light; I have set an example for you.

• 3 Nephi 27:20

  20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

• 3 Nephi 18:11

  11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

• 3 Nephi 21:6

  6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

• 3 Nephi 30:2

  2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

Repentance and baptism certainly seemed to be on Christ's mind as he taught the Nephites.

[rockpond]

44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't speak for JLHPROF, but when you said,

... it sounded to me very much like the Joseph Smith Translation is not credible to you, that you doubt or even deny its account that Jesus baptized, though He did not baptize so many as did his disciples. Why you would do this, I can't say, unless it's because you put no stock in "Mormon' scripture.

If that's not what you meant, please clarify, because you really are leaving me confused at this point regarding your position on this.

Last I checked both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are "Mormon" scripture.  My point was, as I said, that neither the Biblical writers (unless John did but it was subsequently removed) nor the Book of Mormon narrators recorded Christ performing baptisms.  I believe he did and Joseph Smith validates that in the JST. 

But the remaining authors of our scripture (Mormon scripture) seemed to feel that His other works were more notable.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Because conditions can and do change. God might reveal needed adjustments to cope with changing conditions. I don't understand why you (or JLHPROF) would be unable to grasp that.

God can adjust for changing conditions.  That is the whole reason for revelation according to Joseph Smith.
God cannot alter the things that are eternal.
I don't know why so many think God can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks!  I'm feeling pretty good to have JLHPROF agree with a couple of my comments.  Maybe I'm not a completely lost soul after all!  :-) 

I do agree with some.
But I think the idea of Christ being all about love and tolerance only looks at a small part of his ministry.
And we're all lost souls until we put aside our wills and biases and follow what God and Christ say.

Edited October 6, 2016 by JLHPROF

[rockpond]

41 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Again, why would this even remain an open question to you if you accept the JST amendment showing that Jesus did baptize? You're not being coherent in this.

Read for comprehension, Scott, not for what you want to believe about me.  It's all there.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

God can adjust for changing conditions.  That is the whole reason for revelation according to Joseph Smith.
God cannot alter the things that are eternal.
I don't know why so many think God can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

What? Where did I say God alters things that are eternal?

"Adjust[ing] for changing conditions" is what I'm talking about here, not "alter[ing] things that are eternal."

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Last I checked both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are "Mormon" scripture.  My point was, as I said, that neither the Biblical writers (unless John did but it was subsequently removed) nor the Book of Mormon narrators recorded Christ performing baptisms.  I believe he did and Joseph Smith validates that in the JST. 

But the remaining authors of our scripture (Mormon scripture) seemed to feel that His other works were more notable.

If it's present in the JST that He did baptize, what does it matter that it's not recorded elsewhere?

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What? Where did I say God alters things that are eternal?

"Adjust[ing] for changing conditions" is what I'm talking about here, not "alter[ing] things that are eternal."

I don't want to rehash old topics.  But you know full well which items of eternal origin the Church has changed.  You accept those as a result of changing conditions.  I think they are unauthorized.

[mrmarklin]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 10:01 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

In his conference talk President Russell M Nelson gave the reason missionaries leave their homes to preach the gospel:

This might be an eye-opener for some. But I think it brings needed perspective, both to believers and to others.

I think he's being a little disingenuous here.  I went on a mission and it was all about the numbers of baptisms each report period.  And I'm sure it still is.

[Jeanne]

38 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I would love to know what Joseph was thinking when he altered John 4 to read the opposite of how it reads.  I wonder what was going on historically at that time.  Do we have any good books or essays that go through the timeline of the JST changes and make any attempts to understand some of the influences that might have been happening at the time that Joseph and Sidney were working on it?  This is one area that I haven't done much reading about.  

Interesting question.  I hope we get some good replies.