Elder Holland the Apostle, or Elder Holland the Target?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It seems that after Elder Holland powerful conference address concerning the BoM he has become a target in the cyber world. His impassioned sermon about the Book of Mormon and the final hours of Joseph and Hyrum' final hours has offended many, making him a target of criticism each time he speaks. When he dared utter the words (with force), "Those who leave the Church, must crawl under, over or through the Book of Mormon on their way out". (Too paraphrase) He did so well n a "fire and brimstone" manner, which made many angry. In fact his forceful delivery in each of his talks has upset many we have left the Church or,those who feel disenfranchised within the Church. 

It seems that many who used to occupy themselves with Elder McConkie, now have a living Apostle to dominate their thinking, and their postings. Having had a chance to actually meet him and listen to him in close quarters, I find him a breath of fresh air. He reminds me of the Pastors with who I grew up with, strong in belief and filled with the confidence to express themselves forcefully. His sermons break up and shake upi the monotonous delivery that can and does occur. I love the man and I love the delivery of the humble Apostle. I always look forward  to hearing him speak. If I miss his sermons, I always make sure they are recorded so,that I can see him later 

When I met him and the address he gave at a Stake meeting, he pointed out the difficulty of travel and being away from wife and family as the hardest part of his calling. And he noted that it would be almost (if not) unbearable, or even impossible where it not for the knowledge and testimony of the Gospel and souls that needed that be saved. But he noted, that none of the Apostles could hardly wait to return hom, to be with wife's or grandchildren...because that is the stuff of heaven. 

So I ask. Why is he above most Apostles, become the target of so much scrutiny among various website, including this one? (My Question) 

[Scott Lloyd]

I can't say what drives a critic's mindset, but I do want to say that Elder Holland is a personal favorite of mine. I have met and conversed with him on a number of occasions. He has made me feel I am his personal friend. I have come to understand he has that effect on most everyone who meets him. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[sunstoned]

I remember that conference talk.  He was loud and blustering, but I don't call that powerful.  IMO there was no substance in what he said beyond belittling people who no longer believe as he does.  As far as making people angry, I know of none.  I believe his "I'm not a dodo" interview received much more scrutiny than his conference address. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by sunstoned

[Atheist Mormon]

10 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

 

Elder Holland the Apostle, or Elder Holland the Target? So I ask. Why is he above most Apostles, become the target of so much scrutiny among various website, including this one? (My Question) 

PaPa, this is not about targeting Elder Holland, LDS Apostles or any other Religious institution or clergy.....per say....

The problem is much bigger that, Elder Holland & other clergy cannot hide behind their empty promises anymore. It was OK in the past the age of No_Information....Now the Mankind created something so monstrously big information Netz, almost every information we desire is on the tip of our pinkie finger....

No amount of prayers, rituals, well wishes can stem this tide....Just this morning I was looking at the World papers; "Die Welt" , it is reporting hat 15thousand members of a Norwegian disappeared owernight; http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article157837936/15-000-Norweger-verlassen-innerhalb-von-vier-Tagen-die-Kirche.html . And this church has gender equity, female bishops.... 

The Religion served it's purpose in human culture. I'm not writing this wishing all the Churches would go away, I have a notorious apathy what is going to happen with them.....      It's just that writing is on the wall as we humans en mass left our hunting & gathering habits for farming and crop sharing culture 15 thousand years ago.

 

[drums12]

44 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

PaPa, this is not about targeting Elder Holland, LDS Apostles or any other Religious institution or clergy.....per say....

The problem is much bigger that, Elder Holland & other clergy cannot hide behind their empty promises anymore. It was OK in the past the age of No_Information....Now the Mankind created something so monstrously big information Netz, almost every information we desire is on the tip of our pinkie finger....

No amount of prayers, rituals, well wishes can stem this tide....Just this morning I was looking at the World papers; "Die Welt" , it is reporting hat 15thousand members of a Norwegian disappeared owernight; http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article157837936/15-000-Norweger-verlassen-innerhalb-von-vier-Tagen-die-Kirche.html . And this church has gender equity, female bishops.... 

The Religion served it's purpose in human culture. I'm not writing this wishing all the Churches would go away, I have a notorious apathy what is going to happen with them.....      It's just that writing is on the wall as we humans en mass left our hunting & gathering habits for farming and crop sharing culture 15 thousand years ago.

 

I think you're much too sure of yourself.  

[Atheist Mormon]

4 minutes ago, drums12 said:

I think you're much too sure of yourself.  

What part?

[ERayR]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

PaPa, this is not about targeting Elder Holland, LDS Apostles or any other Religious institution or clergy.....per say....

 

IMNSHO Yes it is.

[Buckeye]

12 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

It seems that after Elder Holland powerful conference address concerning the BoM he has become a target in the cyber world. His impassioned sermon about the Book of Mormon and the final hours of Joseph and Hyrum' final hours has offended many, making him a target of criticism each time he speaks. When he dared utter the words (with force), "Those who leave the Church, must crawl under, over or through the Book of Mormon on their way out". (Too paraphrase) He did so well n a "fire and brimstone" manner, which made many angry. In fact his forceful delivery in each of his talks has upset many we have left the Church or,those who feel disenfranchised within the Church. 

It seems that many who used to occupy themselves with Elder McConkie, now have a living Apostle to dominate their thinking, and their postings. Having had a chance to actually meet him and listen to him in close quarters, I find him a breath of fresh air. He reminds me of the Pastors with who I grew up with, strong in belief and filled with the confidence to express themselves forcefully. His sermons break up and shake upi the monotonous delivery that can and does occur. I love the man and I love the delivery of the humble Apostle. I always look forward  to hearing him speak. If I miss his sermons, I always make sure they are recorded so,that I can see him later 

When I met him and the address he gave at a Stake meeting, he pointed out the difficulty of travel and being away from wife and family as the hardest part of his calling. And he noted that it would be almost (if not) unbearable, or even impossible where it not for the knowledge and testimony of the Gospel and souls that needed that be saved. But he noted, that none of the Apostles could hardly wait to return hom, to be with wife's or grandchildren...because that is the stuff of heaven. 

So I ask. Why is he above most Apostles, become the target of so much scrutiny among various website, including this one? (My Question) 

Elder Holland is one of my favorites. Just like McConkie and others who were bold. I appreciate the boldness because it helps us to get to the real issues quicker. Yes, mistakes will be made along the way. Mormon Doctrine had (has) errors. So too some of the things that Holland says. But IMO, so long as everyone is acting in good faith, it's better to speak ones mind, and then fix errors, than to couch everything in wishy-washy language.

As for the BOM talk, I remember this one vividly. I think the main problem is not Holland's boldness in declaring his personal belief, but his inability to comprehend that some members could view the BOM to be ahistorical and still "true."  There are many such members. Just like President Hinckely was factually wrong to say in his 1995 interview that "there are no mormon women who want the priesthood" (my paraphrase), Elder Holland is simply factually wrong on this point. He sacrifices a lot to meet with the members. I've been blessed by just such a meeting in my region a year ago. I'd encourage him to seek out and listen to such members. They exist and they are a great blessing to the church.

[stemelbow]

I think we need to get away from the notion that criticizing a leader's words is criticizing that leader personally.  To suggest we can't criticize our leader's words only creates a place where the market place of ideas is limited and in effect goes away.  I fear we've lost as a Church community because of such thinking.  We can do better and there's always room to grow. 

[cdowis]

19 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

As for the BOM talk, I remember this one vividly. I think the main problem is not Holland's boldness in declaring his personal belief, but his inability to comprehend that some members could view the BOM to be ahistorical and still "true."  

Reminds me of the "problem" of Alma, after hearing the prayer at the tower

Alma 31  [14] Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

[16] Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

[19] Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

Yes, prophets do indeed  have a problem being "sensitive" to those who have such beliefs within the church.

Edited August 24, 2016 by cdowis

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

The problem is much bigger that, Elder Holland & other clergy cannot hide behind their empty promises anymore. It was OK in the past the age of No_Information....Now the Mankind created something so monstrously big information Netz, almost every information we desire is on the tip of our pinkie finger....

No amount of prayers, rituals, well wishes can stem this tide....Just this morning I was looking at the World papers; "Die Welt" , it is reporting hat 15thousand members of a Norwegian disappeared owernight; http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article157837936/15-000-Norweger-verlassen-innerhalb-von-vier-Tagen-die-Kirche.html . And this church has gender equity, female bishops.... 

The Religion served it's purpose in human culture. I'm not writing this wishing all the Churches would go away, I have a notorious apathy what is going to happen with them.....      It's just that writing is on the wall as we humans en mass left our hunting & gathering habits for farming and crop sharing culture 15 thousand years ago.

 

First, not sure how many people will be able to read the article in your link since it is not in English.  Second, human culture changes through time according to circumstances.  Secularism and non-religious views do better in more peaceful and prosperous times as people are comfortable and have too much time on their hands.  However this is all subject to change as society goes bad.  When things go bad, we will see a fast reversal.  When the grim reaper comes calling to a lot of people, they don't move in mass away from religion but move towards it.  God would rather people come to him willingly but if they have to be compelled to be humble and return to him, that works too.

[cdowis]

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 I fear we've lost as a Church community because of such thinking.  

Hallelujah, Praise be to God that we are lead by prophets of God and not by the "community of churches".  

Yes, we are lost to the world.  HALLELUJAH

Edited August 24, 2016 by cdowis

[Buckeye]

13 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Reminds me of the "problem" of Alma, after hearing the prayer at the tower

Alma 31  [14] Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

[16] Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

[19] Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

Yes, prophets do indeed  have a problem being "sensitive" to those who have such beliefs within the church.

I'm not so sure of that. As members with such belief become more numerous and open, I expect that most leaders will come to accommodate them just fine. Elder Holland will probably be at the vanguard.

[Atheist Mormon]

45 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

First, not sure how many people will be able to read the article in your link since it is not in English.  Second, human culture changes through time according to circumstances.  Secularism and non-religious views do better in more peaceful and prosperous times as people are comfortable and have too much time on their hands.  However this is all subject to change as society goes bad.  When things go bad, we will see a fast reversal.  When the grim reaper comes calling to a lot of people, they don't move in mass away from religion but move towards it.  God would rather people come to him willingly but if they have to be compelled to be humble and return to him, that works too.

Your response has some scary truths, I didn't think about...; You are right people will turn into faith of Supernatural when things go bad.

[boblloyd91]

I find that many critics seem bothered when we stand up for ourselves....

[thesometimesaint]

They can leave the Church, but they can't leave it alone.

[Johnnie Cake]

Quote

Pa pa: It seems that after Elder Holland powerful conference address concerning the BoM he has become a target in the cyber world. His impassioned sermon about the Book of Mormon and the final hours of Joseph and Hyrum' final hours has offended many, making him a target of criticism each time he speaks. When he dared utter the words (with force), "Those who leave the Church, must crawl under, over or through the Book of Mormon on their way out". (Too paraphrase) He did so well n a "fire and brimstone" manner, which made many angry. In fact his forceful delivery in each of his talks has upset many we have left the Church or,those who feel disenfranchised within the Church. 

It seems that many who used to occupy themselves with Elder McConkie, now have a living Apostle to dominate their thinking, and their postings. Having had a chance to actually meet him and listen to him in close quarters, I find him a breath of fresh air. He reminds me of the Pastors with who I grew up with, strong in belief and filled with the confidence to express themselves forcefully. His sermons break up and shake upi the monotonous delivery that can and does occur. I love the man and I love the delivery of the humble Apostle. I always look forward  to hearing him speak. If I miss his sermons, I always make sure they are recorded so,that I can see him later 

When I met him and the address he gave at a Stake meeting, he pointed out the difficulty of travel and being away from wife and family as the hardest part of his calling. And he noted that it would be almost (if not) unbearable, or even impossible where it not for the knowledge and testimony of the Gospel and souls that needed that be saved. But he noted, that none of the Apostles could hardly wait to return hom, to be with wife's or grandchildren...because that is the stuff of heaven. 

So I ask. Why is he above most Apostles, become the target of so much scrutiny among various website, including this one? (My Question) 

Other than the inflammatory charge that "Those who leave the Church, must crawl under, over or through the Book of Mormon on their way out"....which is kind of ridiculous as we just leave through the front door, but I believe that the point of criticism was that he held up a copy of a Book of Mormon that he claimed was the exact copy Joseph read from the night before he was murdered.  Well guess what "It wasn't" so he made a false claim in his address and this is what caused much of the stir from critics. Here are actual pictures of the book Elder Holland held up and the actual one that was with Joseph the night before he died...so you decide...was he telling the truth when he held up the wrong book? I'll give him some slack however...maybe someone grabbed the wrong book and Elder Holland didn't know that he was holding up the wrong book when he made the false claim.

and here's a better picture so that you can see that it is a black book he is holding up...

Edited August 24, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Gray]

Elder Holland seems to have been criticized more frequently recently, but I'm not sure it's a trend. I think Elder Oaks and Elder Bednar have gotten just as much criticism. 

[cdowis]

And what is the colour of the book in the photograph?  I assume that you are aware of what happens to a photograph as it ages.

They look identical to me, except for how the book is tinted, which happens in an old photograph.  I have many old photographs which have aged and show an identical tenting to the clothing and obscures the actual colors of those clothes.

This is truly sad when someone throws away their testimony based on a tinting of a photograph.  Surely you can tell us about the Mall, or Mountain Meadows, the Book of Abraham, but a the tinting of an old photograph?????

I have indeed decided for myself.

Edited August 24, 2016 by cdowis

[rockpond]

15 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

It seems that after Elder Holland powerful conference address concerning the BoM he has become a target in the cyber world. His impassioned sermon about the Book of Mormon and the final hours of Joseph and Hyrum' final hours has offended many, making him a target of criticism each time he speaks. When he dared utter the words (with force), "Those who leave the Church, must crawl under, over or through the Book of Mormon on their way out". (Too paraphrase) He did so well n a "fire and brimstone" manner, which made many angry. In fact his forceful delivery in each of his talks has upset many we have left the Church or,those who feel disenfranchised within the Church. 

It seems that many who used to occupy themselves with Elder McConkie, now have a living Apostle to dominate their thinking, and their postings. Having had a chance to actually meet him and listen to him in close quarters, I find him a breath of fresh air. He reminds me of the Pastors with who I grew up with, strong in belief and filled with the confidence to express themselves forcefully. His sermons break up and shake upi the monotonous delivery that can and does occur. I love the man and I love the delivery of the humble Apostle. I always look forward  to hearing him speak. If I miss his sermons, I always make sure they are recorded so,that I can see him later 

When I met him and the address he gave at a Stake meeting, he pointed out the difficulty of travel and being away from wife and family as the hardest part of his calling. And he noted that it would be almost (if not) unbearable, or even impossible where it not for the knowledge and testimony of the Gospel and souls that needed that be saved. But he noted, that none of the Apostles could hardly wait to return hom, to be with wife's or grandchildren...because that is the stuff of heaven. 

So I ask. Why is he above most Apostles, become the target of so much scrutiny among various website, including this one? (My Question) 

I believe that it is his boldness as well as his errors that have earned him so much scrutiny.  That said, I love so many of his sermons... they are powerful and inspiring.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Buckeye said:

 There are many such members. Just like President Hinckely was factually wrong to say in his 1995 interview that "there are no mormon women who want the priesthood" (my paraphrase), ...

If it's your paraphrase, why did you put it in quotation marks? Quotation marks indicate a direct quote, not a paraphrase. No exceptions.

And by the way, I think your "paraphrase" is just enough off the mark that you owe it to the reader to give a direct cite or link so that the actual words can be examined in context.

Incidentally, it is not being unkind to those who view the Book of Mormon as fantasy to tell them they are wrong, even as you welcome them to remain within the fold until they can overcome their unbelief.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Other than the inflammatory charge that "Those who leave the Church, must crawl under, over or through the Book of Mormon on their way out"....which is kind of ridiculous as we just leave through the front door, but I believe that the point of criticism was that he held up a copy of a Book of Mormon that he claimed was the exact copy Joseph read from the night before he was murdered.  Well guess what "It wasn't" so he made a false claim in his address and this is what caused much of the stir from critics. Here are actual pictures of the book Elder Holland held up and the actual one that was with Joseph the night before he died...so you decide...was he telling the truth when he held up the wrong book? I'll give him some slack however...maybe someone grabbed the wrong book and Elder Holland didn't know that he was holding up the wrong book when he made the false claim.

and here's a better picture so that you can see that it is a black book he is holding up...

Your supposition is wrong This was hashed over at the time the talk was given.

The earlier article in the LDS Church News was inaccurate. That was not the book that Hyrum had in Carthage Jail.

As I recall, Blair Hodges, who is currently posting on this message board, started a thread about it. Perhaps he will see this post and help me out in locating that thread from back then.

Edited to add:

Please see this follow-up article that was in the Deseret News quoting Richard E. Turley Jr. of the Church History Department clarifying the matter about the separate books.

Quote

While its historical significance adds to its value, Turley said there is a second volume the church owns that is "almost identical." The book's original owners even bent the same page after hearing the Hyrum Smith story.

And bear it in mind before you dredge this matter up again.

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Storm Rider]

14 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I remember that conference talk.  He was loud and blustering, but I don't call that powerful.  IMO there was no substance in what he said beyond belittling people who no longer believe as he does.  As far as making people angry, I know of none.  I believe his "I'm not a dodo" interview received much more scrutiny than his conference address. 

"Loud and blustering"....hmm, we undoubtedly have vastly different definitions for both terms.  I have never seen or heard him to be either loud or blustering, but I assume that it is all in the eye of the beholder.  

If he has critics, which he does, let them come and do their best.  Let them spew their vitriol as much as they want.  It will not sway this apostle one iota.  

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, cdowis said:

They look identical to me, except for how the book is tinted, which happens in an old photograph.  

No name of owner on front of book.

[Calm]

Not that old of a photo:

http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/50543/Fabric-of-history-Geo-A-and-Bathsheba-Smith-artifacts-donated-to-Church.html