Bushman comments on LDS narrative of its history

[salgare]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The power of narrative.

Pragmatism.  Alma 32.

Truth is what works in your life.  I have been saying that forever.

Living with ambiguity is indeed the issue.  Ongoing life path- THAT is the truth

yep, that is exactly what Bushman is saying, along with the Givens, and what I've noted here for some time now.  The movement from old school, i.e. so old folks there is no Orthodoxy in Mormonism, onward to humanism.

It seems Bushman has held his cards pretty close to his chest, and even here, obviously a very private setting, and likely an unwelcome leak to the public.

But remember .... shhhh, quiet don't tell anyone, as we can not afford to lose those currently orthodox baby boomers.

 

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

I am no expert on Bushman but I see him saying that the narrative the church has been saying has to change and that change will be hardest for the more entrenched members, not him saying he isn't a believer anymore

No I don't think he said that either.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Trust me, not enough evidence evidence was provided.  Just enough for the agenda....

What do you mean?  I had no agenda other than I posted the entire video and asked what posters here thought about this.  That's it.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Teancum

[salgare]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I had no agenda other than I posted the entire video and asked what posters here thought about this.  That's it.

I think a private moment got leaked.  I remember Hershel Pedersen telling me one night: "That letter has been my hell".

Well Richard, welcome to hell 

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, USU78 said:

Kinda short on details, but then I didn't listen to the first hour.

Bushman doesn't even come on until after the 30 minute mark.  Just keep advancing the recording until you see him speaking.

[Calm]

Did you watch the video?

[salgare]

heck yea, with fascination.

 

I especially liked the part about the old folks are not going to like this.

eta:

" Thanks for coming to my rescue Dan. "

Sounds like Dan approached him first.

I can just hear it "Have you seen yourself on the apostate sites?, What the heck were you thinking?  We need to fix this fast.

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by salgare

[Calm]

Bushman talks at these kinds of gatherings all the time.  It would be ridiculous for him not to expect to be recorded and for that then to be shared.  For one thing it looks like it was recorded with a laptop by one of the people involved in organizing as he was being asked questions while he was setting it up and Bushman and his wife were sitting right there the entire time while it was being set up.

It might have been released early since there was no trimming of it, they could have lost the first 15 or more minutes of it, and the audio is horrible (don't know if they can do anything with that), but Bushman's stuff would hardly be edited for something like this.

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did you watch the video?

Started at 57 min, to the end, or close, then went back, not finished yet 

Old stuff for me, the questions were naive but he handled them well. I thought he was a little dogmatic about stuff being "not true", without defining what that means. He seemed a bit too certain about  things we can't be certain about.

[Calm]

From what I saw there was nothing new from him.  He has been saying the same sort of stuff for years.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, salgare said:

yep, that is exactly what Bushman is saying, along with the Givens, and what I've noted here for some time now.  The movement from old school, i.e. so old folks there is no Orthodoxy in Mormonism, onward to humanism.

It seems Bushman has held his cards pretty close to his chest, and even here, obviously a very private setting, and likely an unwelcome leak to the public.

But remember .... shhhh, quiet don't tell anyone, as we can not afford to lose those currently orthodox baby boomers.

You are so far out of touch with reality, salgare.  I have listened to Richard Bushman (and his wife) in large and small gatherings for many years, and he is always the same, regardless of the venue:  Forthcoming, personal, and frank.

There is no orthodoxy in Mormonism because there is only orthopraxy.  Anyhow, Mormonism is a humanistic and universalist religion, even though most people don't realize it.

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Started at 57 min, to the end, or close, then went back, not finished yet 

Old stuff for me, the questions were naive but he handled them well. I thought he was a little dogmatic about stuff being "not true", without defining what that means. He seemed a bit too certain about  things we can't be certain about.

Bur isn't what you say in your last sentence the essence of most LDS testimonies about the LDS truth claims?

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, USU78 said:

Herr Professor Doktor Peterson has obtained permission from Dr Bushman to republish his own words, which Dan has done here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2016/07/richard-bushman-and-the-fundamental-claims-of-mormonism.html

In short, "reconstructed narrative" don't mean what some are trying to make it mean.

Thanks for posting this, USU. It appears some have been misconstruing/distorting what Professor Bushman actually did say. It is nice to have this clarification. I think the closing sentence is a good bottom line:

Quote

  I believe pretty much the same things I did sixty years ago when I was a missionary.

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I don't have much to say about the OP but the church is changing the narrative. I visited the new priesthood restoration site in harmony PA last week. Joseph translated much of the BOM there. As part of the tour there is an upside down hat prominently place on the table where the translation process is discussed to explain and show that a hat was used. I was pleasantly surprised. 

If you had read my Church News report last year of the dedication of that historic site by President Russell M. Nelson -- or even if you had read a thread I started here about that occasion in which I posted a link to that article that includes a picture I shot of that hat on the table -- you might not have been so surprised last week.

Just sayin'.

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[USU78]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Bushman doesn't even come on until after the 30 minute mark.  Just keep advancing the recording until you see him speaking.

That's what I did. What we have here,  I think, is Bushman using a phrase in a general sense, "change the narrative, " while the boobirds and bigots use it in a specific sense. They simply heard what they wanted to hear and jumped to in supportable conclusions 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, USU78 said:

That's what I did. What we have here,  I think, is Bushman using a phrase in a general sense, "change the narrative, " while the boobirds and bigots use it in a specific sense. They simply heard what they wanted to hear and jumped to in supportable conclusions 

I think it's more than clear this is what has happened.

[salgare]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are so far out of touch with reality, salgare.  I have listened to Richard Bushman (and his wife) in large and small gatherings for many years, and he is always the same, regardless of the venue:  Forthcoming, personal, and frank.

There is no orthodoxy in Mormonism because there is only orthopraxy.  Anyhow, Mormonism is a humanistic and universalist religion, even though most people don't realize it.

So why did dan have to "come to his rescue"?

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, salgare said:

So why did dan have to "come to his rescue"?

I am just spitballing here, but I think this is due to some people misunderstanding his words and intent, and some other people misrepresenting his words and intent.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am just spitballing here, but I think this is due to some people misunderstanding his words and intent, and some other people misrepresenting his words and intent.

That's fairly obvious, in fact. 

[salgare]

ah good, nothing to see here

[James Tunney]

I think Bushman's comments are pretty clear in answer to the question from the gentleman on the youtube recording.  The person was commenting on how the simplistic narrative the missionaries teach and that one learns at church doesn't agree with the actual history or "narrative" as it actually happened.  Bushman then says that the dominant narrative that Packer and the church espoused is not true and must change.  

It is clear.  The church, starting with Joseph Smith himself and continuing throughout to the recent past, created a myth about its history that simply isn't true and now it is scrambling to deal with the damage done. 

 

[Five Solas]

Are we now supposed to conclude Bushman believes the dominant or orthodox LDS narrative ("what we teach investigators, what we learn in Sunday school") is in fact true & sustainable?  I'm quite sure he said the exact opposite in that video.   

--Erik 

_____________________________________________________

Truthiness is tearing apart our country, and I don't mean the argument over who came up with the word…

--Stephen Colbert

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

He doesn't speak of the narrative, Teancum, he speaks of the "dominant narrative," and that makes all the difference.  One hears a great deal of criticism of the mythical and legendary narrative that naive, well-meaning people might tell (often on this board), but which is not based on adequate historical data.  Fawn Brodie got a great deal of mileage out of historical nonsense, while refusing a formal offer of access to the Church History Archives.  She had already modeled or tailored her critique of Joseph on the dominant, but false narrative, thus ignoring good historiograpy.  Unlike Brodie, Bushman is a professional historian with a lifetime of experience, and his work stands on its own.

Since my mother came from San Pete County, she was an authentic grandmother of the sort mentioned by Bushman.  Yet she had a master's degree and kept up with whatever publications BYU Studies, FARMS, and the Utah Historical Society put out -- and was the founding president of her California chapter of Daughters of the Utah Pioneers.  She loved real Mormon history.  It never made her flinch.  She was a woman of great faith, who went to the temple as often as possible, until her death at 94.

My mother also came from Sanpete County, Fayette to be exact!   

I remember a comment during the video from a woman that sounds a lot like your mom. She liked the interesting, true history of the church, she read Fawn Brodie, Bushman and many other church history books. The only thing that gives her concern, is how the church expects conformity. She may have gone into detail about it. Maybe I'll find it on the video and give the time.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I am just spitballing here, but I think this is due to some people misunderstanding his words and intent, and some other people misrepresenting his words and intent.

I was quite pleaaed Dan was able to clarify Bushman's remarks. 

So much for my alleged agenda Country Boy. 

[UtahTexan]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I was quite pleaaed Dan was able to clarify Bushman's remarks. 

So much for my alleged agenda Country Boy. 

u huh