The Church speaks up on SSM again

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But doctrinally that's in your head. 

And there is another dynamic here as well. We're I your partner or spouse, there is no way I would allow my kids to be raised LDS.  And I personally can see  church doctrine as theistic humanism. For me, I could retain 99% of my theology outside the church, but the spirit constrains me from doing so, but I would never allow my kids to be raised in a church so far from my beliefs.

So now I can see conflict between my spouse and me over this issue.

It would just not be worth it, for truths I can teach at home about God being an exalted man, and taking scriptures figuratively. 

I would come up with my own church in a heartbeat. 

Conflict resolved. 

Really sorry but I would see the issue much differently, so it's hard to relate.

It doesn't sound to me like the church is far from CB's beliefs, he didn't extricate himself from the church, the church dictated to him how much he could partake. If his children are not homosexual, then I can see that he would be accepting of them going to the LDS church, especially if the policy is that...policy.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It doesn't sound to me like the church is far from CB's beliefs, he didn't extricate himself from the church, the church dictated to him how much he could partake. If his children are not homosexual, then I can see that he would be accepting of them going to the LDS church, especially if the policy is that...policy.

I agree, I'm not sure I get where our good friend Mr. Bukowski is coming from.  I sit in church not because my thinking and beliefs align so well, but because I sense a higher purpose and maintain hope things will work out, questions are resolved and issues play themselves out.  I could see myself in CB's shoes easily, so easily I sometimes feel like I'm there. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I wasn't speaking for LGBT LDS. But to say the church is accepting of LGBT youth is laughable, like someone saying they accept Mormons so long as they don't go to church, don't pray, stop believing in Mormonism and finally resign from the church. In what sense would such a person be accepting of Mormons?

 

I'm not aware of any data that says anything like that. CFR. 

And even then sample size would be a problem.

How many actual people fit all these criteria and identify as LGBT LDS youth?

[Gray]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And even then sample size would be a problem.

How many actual people fit all these criteria and identify as LGBT LDS youth?

Yes, sample size would be a problem. And of course even identifying them would be a problem. I don't think many young people in Utah are openly gay, given the conservative culture. 

[kllindley]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

It's not generalized data. It's data that applies to a very specific subset of the population - LGBT youth. It's that population that is under discussion, not Mormons generally. 

It is generalized to all LGBT youth.  Of which only 1-2 % will be LDS.  You say it is the LGBT youth population under discussion, but I was under the impression that we were talking about Mormon LGBT youth.   A sample population of Mormons generally is just as likely to include LGBT individuals as a sample population of LGBT Youth is to include LDS individuals.  It's really not that complicated.    

2 hours ago, Gray said:

I wasn't speaking for LGBT LDS. But to say the church is accepting of LGBT youth is laughable, like someone saying they accept Mormons so long as they don't go to church, don't pray, stop believing in Mormonism and finally resign from the church. In what sense would such a person be accepting of Mormons?

 

I'm not aware of any data that says anything like that. CFR. 

You are trying to speak for LGBT LDS.  You insist on trying to define our experience by conflating many different facets of experience into a single factor.  This doesn't ring true for me at all. And many of my LGBT LDS friends express the same thing.  But you call our experience laughable.  As a straight person.  That is privilege. 

 

I don't know what sort of reference you are asking for.  The data cited in this thread are reported to show that LGBT youth suicides have increased over the last 7 years.  That is all.  People have tried to tie this to the Church's involvement in SSM, the new policy, etc.  But that is an post hoc attempt to explain correlation.  If the suicide rate has increased over the last 7 years (which I generally accept), we should be looking for things that have changed in the last 7 years to explain the change in suicide rate.  The Church's opposition to homosexual behavior hasn't changed.  The Church's position on marriage hasn't changed.  If anything, the church has been more kind and inclusive of LGBT members over the last 7 years.  So people trying to assign blame to the church seem to be saying that increasing calls for kindness and compassion must cause more suicide.  I don't get that logic.  

On the other hand, looking back over the last 7 years there have been a lot of changes in the larger society.  Gay marriage has gone from being an oxymoron, to civil right.  Groups like Mamma Dragons and other straight "allies" within the church continue to insist that the Church is not accepting of LGBT youth.  They repeat the false narrative that there is no hope for happiness in the Church.  These changes do increase the sense of hopelessness that LGBT youth experience.  When people like you dominate the discussion and minimize-even deny-the lived experience of LGBT members who have found happiness, LGBT youth are cut off from support. See for example: http://ldslights.org/the-other-side-of-same-sex-marriage-and-lgbt-mormon-support/ 

If this increased social support for LGBT youth was actually effective, why are we seeing an increase in suicide despite Church doctrine remaining the same? 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

 

Yes I totally think the church is one of the worst christian churches in the way it treats gays.  

That is significantly different than saying "most anti-gay church" (my apologies if that is a paraphrase and not a direct quote).  

My mind goes to churches like Westboro Baptist and some others who see AIDS as a deserved curse or congregations with pastors like these:

https://mic.com/articles/22654/10-most-wildly-anti-gay-preachers-in-america#.dSTUPqnUU

[Calm]

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  I can better understand your position now.

[Calm]

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And even then sample size would be a problem.

How many actual people fit all these criteria and identify as LGBT LDS youth?

If one uses 1% of LDS population are likely LGBT (using the conservative estimate due to the perception of LDS as not gay friendly or anti-gay), for the US, I believe that gives around 65,000.  Given LDS in the US on average have 3.4 children, that means a good portion of membership are youth (perhaps someone else can find the percentage), so say 1/3 or 21,000.

Otoh, LGBT identity may come late in youth or even in adulthood, so the number may be high.

[Calm]

Since I can't edit that post....

If one assumes an average ward is 400 people (guess here based on 300 member minimun according to wiki) that would amount to 5,300 wards worth.

[Calm]

Urgh...

Given there are around 14,000 congregations in the US, that seems high.  

Using wards as our starting point, we take 1% of units, that would be 140 units and one can imagine how many of those are youth for oneself and how many active youth would be encountering on a regular basis teachings of the Church (as opposed to being members of record who did not attend).

So take either amount that you want.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Urgh...

Given there are around 14,000 congregations in the US, that seems high.  

Using wards as our starting point, we take 1% of units, that would be 140 units and one can imagine how many of those are youth for oneself and how many active youth would be encountering on a regular basis teachings of the Church (as opposed to being members of record who did not attend).

So take either amount that you want.

And the number of congregations is a reflection on activity rates. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

It is generalized to all LGBT youth.  Of which only 1-2 % will be LDS.  You say it is the LGBT youth population under discussion, but I was under the impression that we were talking about Mormon LGBT youth.   A sample population of Mormons generally is just as likely to include LGBT individuals as a sample population of LGBT Youth is to include LDS individuals.  It's really not that complicated.  

LDS LGBT youth are LGBT youth. That should be obvious, right? There are general factors that put LGBT youth at higher risk for suicide, factors that don't apply to Mormons generally (who are mostly straight), but factors that do apply to LGBT youth. There is no data to suggest there is some religious exemption to that general principle. In fact there is data that suggests the opposite. 

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

You are trying to speak for LGBT LDS.  You insist on trying to define our experience by conflating many different facets of experience into a single factor.  This doesn't ring true for me at all. And many of my LGBT LDS friends express the same thing.  But you call our experience laughable.  As a straight person.  That is privilege. 

I've never tried to do that, but you seem to insist on putting words in my mouth.

The church doesn't accept gay people. If you take everything about a person that makes them gay, and then reject and exclude that, the church accepts whatever is left over. That much is obvious, and church leaders have made that perfectly clear. 

I'm glad you seem less affected by that rejection, I truly am.

 

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

I don't know what sort of reference you are asking for.  The data cited in this thread are reported to show that LGBT youth suicides have increased over the last 7 years.  That is all.  People have tried to tie this to the Church's involvement in SSM, the new policy, etc.  But that is an post hoc attempt to explain correlation.  If the suicide rate has increased over the last 7 years (which I generally accept), we should be looking for things that have changed in the last 7 years to explain the change in suicide rate.  The Church's opposition to homosexual behavior hasn't changed.  The Church's position on marriage hasn't changed.  If anything, the church has been more kind and inclusive of LGBT members over the last 7 years.  So people trying to assign blame to the church seem to be saying that increasing calls for kindness and compassion must cause more suicide.  I don't get that logic.  

On the other hand, looking back over the last 7 years there have been a lot of changes in the larger society.  Gay marriage has gone from being an oxymoron, to civil right.  Groups like Mamma Dragons and other straight "allies" within the church continue to insist that the Church is not accepting of LGBT youth.  They repeat the false narrative that there is no hope for happiness in the Church.  These changes do increase the sense of hopelessness that LGBT youth experience.  When people like you dominate the discussion and minimize-even deny-the lived experience of LGBT members who have found happiness, LGBT youth are cut off from support. See for example: http://ldslights.org/the-other-side-of-same-sex-marriage-and-lgbt-mormon-support/ 

If this increased social support for LGBT youth was actually effective, why are we seeing an increase in suicide despite Church doctrine remaining the same? 

You suggested a correlation between increased societal acceptance of gay people and suicide. It seems you're unable to support that with any evidence. Certainly there is no research to support that conclusion - research suggests the opposite. 

The church has changed in regards to gay people. While church leaders have softened their harshest rhetoric, the rhetoric has become more frequent and more visible. What used to be an infrequently discussed side topic is now front and center in the church's public discourse. Church leaders have essentially positioned the church as an anti-gay marriage church. 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But doctrinally that's in your head. 

And there is another dynamic here as well. We're I your partner or spouse, there is no way I would allow my kids to be raised LDS.  And I personally can see  church doctrine as theistic humanism. For me, I could retain 99% of my theology outside the church, but the spirit constrains me from doing so, but I would never allow my kids to be raised in a church so far from my beliefs.

So now I can see conflict between my spouse and me over this issue.

It would just not be worth it, for truths I can teach at home about God being an exalted man, and taking scriptures figuratively. 

I would come up with my own church in a heartbeat. 

Conflict resolved. 

Really sorry but I would see the issue much differently, so it's hard to relate.

I need some clarification hee. What do you think I said that doctrinally is in my head?  This statement??

11 hours ago, california boy said:

 I don't believe for one minute God makes blanked judgements about everyone just because they are gay.  I fully believe he judges the individual and not the group.  This policy screamed against every belief I have of God and how He judges us.  

Do you disagree with this doctrine? Tell me your thoughts.  I am a bit confused.

 

 

 

 

 

[california boy]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Deleted post.  Sorry I see you already figured out what I ment by most anti gay Christian religion, not preachers

Edited July 11, 2016 by california boy

[Calm]

Which is why I identified "active youth".  Using congregations and the active youth attached to them is probably a better way to estimate those encountering teachings with a sufficient enough influence (not that hearing something once can't have an impact, but in general frequency and importance in one's life of the influence play a bif part on impact).

I don't know if we are a typical ward and how accurate the numbers are since it has been a bit since my husband has been released, but he reports around 230 members over 18, around 70 YM and YW and 60-70 Primary age.  Doesn't count babies, but they are irrelevant to the discussion really.  So a little over a third.  How many active, I forgot to ask but it runs high given we are small town Utah next to BYU (ward tends to be highly educated).

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Gray said:

LDS LGBT youth are LGBT youth. That should be obvious, right? There are general factors that put LGBT youth at higher risk for suicide, factors that don't apply to Mormons generally (who are mostly straight), but factors that do apply to LGBT youth. There is no data to suggest there is some religious exemption to that general principle. In fact there is data that suggests the opposite. 

 

However, LDS do contradict some religious trends, primarily education (higher education means more, not less commitment).  Combine that with higher education generally means more tolerance and less prejudice as well as greater exposure to a variety of ideas and families with greater access to mental health resources, I think one should be cautious about making assumptions about LDS LGBT youth based on LGBT youth studies just as we should be cautious about using LDS youth studies because LGBT youth have contrary results to general youth stats when it comes to religion and suicide.

[stemelbow]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

However, LDS do contradict some religious trends, primarily education (higher education means more, not less commitment).  Combine that with higher education generally means more tolerance and less prejudice as well as greater exposure to a variety of ideas and families with greater access to mental health resources, I think one should be cautious about making assumptions about LDS LGBT youth based on LGBT youth studies just as we should be cautious about using LDS youth studies because LGBT youth have contrary results to general youth stats when it comes to religion and suicide.

I think people see that Utah youth, with the major religion in the region being Mormonism of course, having a  higher suicide rate than other areas, and LGBT youth having a higher suicide rate generally than the average population and then hearing of personal accounts of LDS LGBT youth suicides and going from there.  While true, not completely able to tell the whole story and give us the data we need to draw conclusions, it still provides reason for the concern, if nothing else.  If we take the estimated figures you posted above of 21,000 LDS LGBT youth in the Church, and determine a certain amount of LDS LGBT youth suicides (whatever that is) we might see a trend or figure similar to another group.  or we might see worse. 

But keep in mind, there are numbers being thrown around by some.  remember some months ago when a lady from mama dragons gave the number of 32 or whatever it was, number of LGBT LDS youth suicides?  over some months period of time?  Well that might have been a wrong figure, as it seemed it was determined, but if at all near a ballpark, we might be talking about a suicide rate that is beyond any else we have seen. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

However, LDS do contradict some religious trends, primarily education (higher education means more, not less commitment).  Combine that with higher education generally means more tolerance and less prejudice as well as greater exposure to a variety of ideas and families with greater access to mental health resources, I think one should be cautious about making assumptions about LDS LGBT youth based on LGBT youth studies just as we should be cautious about using LDS youth studies because LGBT youth have contrary results to general youth stats when it comes to religion and suicide.

That's true, but I don't think that can mean we can preemptively assume that LDS LGBT teens are immune from what affects other LGBT teens negatively. There isn't anything to support that.

In my opinion, the LDS experience for all teens is a high pressure environment that is already a little unhealthy. Again, my opinion, based on what I experienced growing up as a straight male LDS teenager. Adding rejection on top of everything else for LDS LGBT teens may make it a worse experience than for other LGBT teens. I don't know if that's true, but that's my intuition. 

[kllindley]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

LDS LGBT youth are LGBT youth. That should be obvious, right? There are general factors that put LGBT youth at higher risk for suicide, factors that don't apply to Mormons generally (who are mostly straight), but factors that do apply to LGBT youth. There is no data to suggest there is some religious exemption to that general principle. In fact there is data that suggests the opposite. 

LDS LGBT youth are LDS youth.  That should be obvious right?  There are general factors that protect LDS youth from risk for suicide, factors that don't apply to LGBT youth generally, (who are mostly non-LDS) but factors that do apply to LDS youth.  There is no data to suggest that there is some sexual orientation exemption to that general principal. 

Is this really so hard for you to accept?

3 hours ago, Gray said:

The church doesn't accept gay people. If you take everything about a person that makes them gay, and then reject and exclude that, the church accepts whatever is left over. That much is obvious, and church leaders have made that perfectly clear. 

I'm glad you seem less affected by that rejection, I truly am.

I state categorically that the Church does not reject me.  Period.  You continue to deny my experience.  

 

3 hours ago, Gray said:

You suggested a correlation between increased societal acceptance of gay people and suicide. It seems you're unable to support that with any evidence. Certainly there is no research to support that conclusion - research suggests the opposite. 

What sort of evidence are you looking for?  The data stand on their own.  Are you denying that there has been an increase in LDS LGBT youth suicide over the last 7 years? Or are you trying to attack a straw man claim about gay people generally that I absolutely did not make?  I'm confused.  Maybe you just mean that you prefer your interpretation of the data and want everyone else to accept that interpretation as a fact because it supports your personal views?  

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

 

If one uses 1% of LDS population are likely LGBT (using the conservative estimate due to the perception of LDS as not gay friendly or anti-gay), for the US, I believe that gives around 65,000.  Given LDS in the US on average have 3.4 children, that means a good portion of membership are youth (perhaps someone else can find the percentage), so say 1/3 or 21,000.

Otoh, LGBT identity may come late in youth or even in adulthood, so the number may be high.

I believe the criteria was for LGBT LDS YOUTH who self - identify AS LGBGT.

I think very few LDS youth even with "same sex attraction" would self-identify as LGBGT while still "youth" due if nothing else to the high social costs involved in doing so, and also the confusion itself of knowing what they even think about the opposite sex and an early age.

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

In my opinion, the LDS experience for all teens is a high pressure environment that is already a little unhealthy. 

How do you reconcile your opinion with the data showing activity in church decreases suicide?

"Some factors were associated with a lower risk of suicide ideation in this age group. Those who attended religious services or activities once a week or more (60.4% of sample) were half as likely to have considered suicide (OR=0.5). Even among those who had experienced an episode of depressive symptoms (two or more weeks of feeling sad or hopeless to the point where it interfered with their usual activities) in the previous year (20.8% of the sample), religious involvement was still protective (OR=0.6). "

http://health.utah.gov/opha/publications/hsu/1502_Suicide.pdf

Edited July 11, 2016 by Danzo

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I believe the criteria was for LGBT LDS YOUTH who self - identify AS LGBGT.

I think very few LDS youth even with "same sex attraction" would self-identify as LGBGT while still "youth" due if nothing else to the high social costs involved in doing so, and also the confusion itself of knowing what they even think about the opposite sex and an early age.

I think in the past that is true and even to a certain extent now.  I know of individuals who report being aroused at pictures of the same sex at very young ages and even playing sexual games (without being aware of anything but the pleasure derived from them), but now identify as purely heterosexual as well as homosexual so sexual arousal at a young age may not mean what people are thinking means about their sexual identity when they look back if they are not aware of the frequency of such experiences.  In the past these early games or any other inclinations to physical arousals or perceptions of wanting to be a different gender (I don't know how frequent wanting to be a girl for a boy occurred, but a lot of girls wanted to be boys in my experience and I wouldn't be surprised if androgeny was appealing...looking back, that is what I wanted as a 'tomboy' rather than being a boy) may have had little influence on young adult and adult perception of sexual identity.

However, our greater society is imo focusing on individual sexuality at younger ages; this coupled with the greater public presence of homosexuality and other nonheterosexual forms of sexuality in our culture would likely cause more teens and younger seriously considering their sexual identities.

[USU78]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

That is significantly different than saying "most anti-gay church" (my apologies if that is a paraphrase and not a direct quote).  

My mind goes to churches like Westboro Baptist and some others who see AIDS as a deserved curse or congregations with pastors like these:

https://mic.com/articles/22654/10-most-wildly-anti-gay-preachers-in-america#.dSTUPqnUU

Yet caliboy did accuse the Church of just that.  Yes, it's hyperbole.  It's also grossly unfair and inaccurate, if not mendacious.

[Gray]

17 hours ago, kllindley said:

LDS LGBT youth are LDS youth.  That should be obvious right?  There are general factors that protect LDS youth from risk for suicide, factors that don't apply to LGBT youth generally, (who are mostly non-LDS) but factors that do apply to LDS youth.  There is no data to suggest that there is some sexual orientation exemption to that general principal. 

There is no research to back up your ideas. And there is plenty of data to suggest that religious LGBT youth are at high risk for suicide. It's well known that religious affiliation in general has an inverse correlation with suicide for most populations. Religious affiliation alone is not enough to protect LGBT youth from suicide. Rejection is known to increase risk of suicide, and conservative religious groups tend to be rejecting, not accepting. 

 

Quote

Is this really so hard for you to accept?

I state categorically that the Church does not reject me.  Period.  You continue to deny my experience.  

The church does reject you as a gay person.  But I don't deny your experience - you don't feel rejected. I accept that.

Quote

 

What sort of evidence are you looking for?  The data stand on their own.  Are you denying that there has been an increase in LDS LGBT youth suicide over the last 7 years? Or are you trying to attack a straw man claim about gay people generally that I absolutely did not make?  I'm confused.  Maybe you just mean that you prefer your interpretation of the data and want everyone else to accept that interpretation as a fact because it supports your personal views?  

I'm looking for evidence linking greater acceptance with more suicide. The data suggests the opposite. There is a positive correlation between teen suicide in Utah and ISIS activity. Do you think that is enough to demonstrate causality? 

My personal views follow the data. It's clear that your personal views do not. 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

16 hours ago, Danzo said:

How do you reconcile your opinion with the data showing activity in church decreases suicide?

"Some factors were associated with a lower risk of suicide ideation in this age group. Those who attended religious services or activities once a week or more (60.4% of sample) were half as likely to have considered suicide (OR=0.5). Even among those who had experienced an episode of depressive symptoms (two or more weeks of feeling sad or hopeless to the point where it interfered with their usual activities) in the previous year (20.8% of the sample), religious involvement was still protective (OR=0.6). "

http://health.utah.gov/opha/publications/hsu/1502_Suicide.pdf

I think for straight teens, even with the pressures and guilt put on, they them have a support system and hope for the future.  For many gay LDS teenagers, there is no hope for the future. God has rejected you, the church has rejected you. There is something innately "evil" inside of you that you can't fix. The only thing that can "fix" you is death. Which is of course an awful and false idea (the idea that these teenagers need fixing to begin with), but that's a natural consequence of taking the hard conservative line on this issue.