ksfisher Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 16 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: The issue with above all vision is proof or Evidence, I can understand they believe in such encounters but how is it going to convince skeptics like me? 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. Moroni 10
Atheist Mormon Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, USU78 said: [Sigh] So much Martin Buber, so few readers in the world What? Evidence is not good enough criteria for you?
Atheist Mormon Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.Moroni 10 That's not gonna happen.......
ksfisher Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 16 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: That's not gonna happen....... Joseph Smith defined the first principle of the gospel as faith in the Savior. Without that faith nothing else is going to happen.
Teancum Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 31 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Joseph Smith defined the first principle of the gospel as faith in the Savior. Without that faith nothing else is going to happen. Faith certainly is the filler for the evidence gap.
Danzo Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 21 minutes ago, Teancum said: Faith certainly is the filler for the evidence gap.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: Joseph Smith defined the first principle of the gospel as faith in the Savior. Without that faith nothing else is going to happen. Okay, I have a good suggestion for you, A Catholic friend (Priest) of mine advised you to come down to the Cathedral he is serving; He suggested for you to kneel in front of statue of Christ (on Cross) and take the holy communion. If that is not satisfactory I have an Imam friend who can help you to teach true ways of Muhammad...These guys have the same conviction as you have....Don't you think you'd increase your chances of going Heaven threefold? If one faith is wrong the other one must be right...In your case you think yours is the only right one......Think about it...You are almost there.....One Deity short of joining me to become a full fledgling atheist... It is the best way to experience life.
Damien the Leper Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Funny. I'm the exact opposite. Theology is much more interesting than science or history. To each their own. I've read several books on systematic theology and they're fairly boring. Studying various theologies only shows that perspectives differ and no one is more right than any other.
ksfisher Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 23 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Okay, I have a good suggestion for you, A Catholic friend (Priest) of mine advised you to come down to the Cathedral he is serving; He suggested for you to kneel in front of statue of Christ (on Cross) and take the holy communion. If that is not satisfactory I have an Imam friend who can help you to teach true ways of Muhammad...These guys have the same conviction as you have....Don't you think you'd increase your chances of going Heaven threefold? If one faith is wrong the other one must be right...In your case you think yours is the only right one......Think about it...You are almost there.....One Deity short of joining me to become a full fledgling atheist... It is the best way to experience life. Without being me I'm not sure how you can know what my convictions are. Same for your three friends. I can't speak for their experiences, or yours, I only know my own. And speaking for myself I believe that what is written in the Book of Mormon about faith and the Spirit testifying of that truth. I also believe that you cannot know of the things of God unless you first exercise faith in God. I'm glad that your friends have faith in God. I invite them to become part of the LDS church and we can build on that faith. 1
USU78 Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: What? Evidence is not good enough criteria for you? Sit down, Grasshopper, and please take notes. 1. In The Little Prince, the Fox seeks to be "tamed" by the Little Prince, which is a thinly veiled metaphor for loved and committed to. During the process of "taming," the Fox tells our young hero, "What is essential is invisible to the eye." I adapted that for my response/criticism to/of your prior radical materialism post. What matters in this world more than anything are the connections between people, and between people and G-d. Everything else is window-dressing. A rocket is just a fancy chariot: a computer is just a fancy fingers-and-toes calculating system. What makes who you are and what you do matter is your connections: whom you have tamed and by whom you have been tamed. 2. Martin Buber in his Ich und Du posits the same problem and the same solution. He does so using a linguistic analysis of human language. English is difficult to express the phenomenon in, but not impossible, if you're willing to be patient enough to wait on now no longer current linguistic constructs. If I love you/thee, you/thee are the object of my affection, and my relationship with you is fraught with my need to control and dominate you/thee. If, however, we find a way to convert the verb love into a reflexive verb where the person on the right side of the verb is in the subjective and not the objective case, then we approach the kind of relationship between individuals that implies a "taming," where I love the essence of my beloved without anything like control or domination entering the picture. Scripturally we find this concept expressed in Christ's high-priestly yom kippur-esque prayer in John: "That they may be one as Thou and I are one." In German, "Du und ich." You concern yourself with whether G-d can be measured, when you ignore the ethical/moral duty you as a member of this community, human/Christian/Mormon, to form bonding pairs with as many as you can, without seeking to control or dominate in any way, such that you and they are One, each tamed by the other, just as G-d seeks to tame each of us, making all of us One with Him. So ... No. "Evidence is not good enough" for me. I want to see you tame and be tamed by, to live in Ich/Du One-ness with man and G-d. And that's it. Edited July 15, 2016 by USU78 Fumble fingers
Calm Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: Okay, I have a good suggestion for you, A Catholic friend (Priest) of mine advised you to come down to the Cathedral he is serving; He suggested for you to kneel in front of statue of Christ (on Cross) and take the holy communion. If that is not satisfactory I have an Imam friend who can help you to teach true ways of Muhammad...These guys have the same conviction as you have....Don't you think you'd increase your chances of going Heaven threefold? If one faith is wrong the other one must be right...In your case you think yours is the only right one......Think about it...You are almost there.....One Deity short of joining me to become a full fledgling atheist... It is the best way to experience life. I highly doubt you have a Catholic priest friend who actually advised this as it would be against the teachings of his Church and very disrespectful of the Eucharist: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion " "Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . " Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not. Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30). " 2
USU78 Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, Calm said: I highly doubt you have a Catholic priest friend who actually advised this as it would be against the teachings of his Church and very disrespectful of the Eucharist: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion " "Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . " Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not. Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30). " Beautifully expressed. Thanks!
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