stemelbow Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: Funny coming from you. This is the message they are receiving. From people like you. Lovely. My definition must be unusual because it doesn't match your prejudices. And they you place the burden of proof on me to define my experience to you, so that you can further explain how I am wrong and you are right. I stand by my original request for you to explain to me what makes me gay. You continue to to insist that the Church rejects gay people. When called on it, you backstep to "reject everything about you that makes you gay." So please tell me what makes me gay. While I'll leave Gray to answer you on this, I will add, it's not just Gray who is saying gay people feel rejected by the Church. Many gay people have so expressed, as they personally feel like they've been rejected. Thus, giving evidence for his claim that the Church is rejecting them. I kindly grant that your experience and opinion is different, but that surely doesn't mean theirs is somehow discounted, no? 2
Gray Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: Funny coming from you. No, I make a good faith effort not to distort people's arguments. 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: This is the message they are receiving. From people like you. No, I'm sending them the opposite message. They're fine just the way they are. They have value, they have hope for a good future in this life. They are not broken or inferior. Someday I hope the church will send them a similar message. 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: Lovely. My definition must be unusual because it doesn't match your prejudices. And they you place the burden of proof on me to define my experience to you, so that you can further explain how I am wrong and you are right. I stand by my original request for you to explain to me what makes me gay. You continue to to insist that the Church rejects gay people. When called on it, you backstep to "reject everything about you that makes you gay." So please tell me what makes me gay. How can I explain what makes you gay? First you spend several posts accusing me of speaking for you, and now you berate me because I won't speak for you? I can certainly speak to what the church's message is to gay people. I can't speak to how you interpret that message for yourself. Only you can define what that is. 2
smac97 Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gray said: The church rejects that which makes them gay. First, that's not what you said. You said "The church rejects gay people. Emphasis on gay." That is a rank falsehood. Quote The church rejects their sexual orientation Yet another rank falsehood. The church rejects homosexual behavior, regardless of sexual orientation. Quote Quote Homosexual behavior is not allowed in the Church. By anyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Precisely. Precisely what? . Quote I think I'm accurately representing the message from church HQ. The messages at the ward level of course may vary. Fine. CFR, if you please, for "the message from church HQ" that "{t}he church rejects gay people." Chapter and verse, if you please. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 12, 2016 by smac97 2
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, Gray said: And there is no evidence that the LDS experience is good for LGBT youth generally. That's an unfounded leap. We are talking about the health of people with three attributes 1. Active LDS: I have provided many links to show that LDS live longer and are more healthy 2. Active Youth: I have provided links to show active LDS youth are seven times less likely to commit suicide, I have also provided links that show that youth that attend church regularly are much less likely to commit suicide. I have also showed that they are less likely to engage in unhealthy behaviors 3. LGTB: The data shows that being LGTB increases risk of suicides, so we know the Being an active LDS Youth reduces suicide, has a dampening effect We know that Being a LGTB Youth increases suicide, or has an amplifying effect You are postulating that for a LGTB Youth who is active LDS, being Active LDS stops reducing suicide for LGTB people and turns into an amplifier for suicide. You are right, there is no evidence for this amplification effect. 1
stemelbow Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: First, that's not what you said. You said "The church rejects gay people. Emphasis on gay." That is a rank falsehood. Yet another rank falsehood. The church rejects homosexual behavior, regardless of sexual orientation. Precisely what? I know of a man, a member of the Church, who has same-sex attraction (he may be bisexual). Nevertheless, he has gone through the repentance process for his past actions (not, as you falsely suggest, his "sexual orientation"), and has been restored to full fellowship in the Church. He is currently in his ward's high priest group leadership. He has and uses a temple recommend. So how do you reconcile the reality of this man's status in the Church with your declaration that "The church rejects gay people?" Fine. CFR, if you please, for "the message from church HQ" that "{t}he church rejects gay people." Chapter and verse, if you please. Thanks, -Smac Whether the Church says she rejects gay people or not isn't all that significant to me. All I know is many gay people have said they've been rejected by the Church, or have felt so rejected. Most times when it comes to people being or feeling rejected, it matters not what you say, but the message they are receiving. When enough feel rejection, when it's not intended, it's probably time to reconsider the reason for them feeling so rejected. Granted, there are many gay people who do not feel rejected in the Church. But keep in mind a leader of the church recently said, there are no homosexual members of the Church--thus, giving anyone who so identifies (homosexual) reason to think he/she is clearly rejected. I get what he meant, but that doesnt' mean the message to one who identifies as homosexual doesn't feel rejected. 1
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 12 minutes ago, Gray said: I don't think I'm creating my own definition of healthy. Do you think it's possible to be unhealthy, and yet not commit suicide, not use drugs, and not get into gang fights? Is that all there is to good health? That's a pretty low bar, if so. They are easily measured indicators of health. I provided evidence that active lds live longer, there can't be any better definition of health than living (dying isn't very healthy) Even if you don't think that avoiding suicide, drugs and gang fights is the totality of being healthy most reasonable people can agree that they can be objective indicators of being healthy. I think you are creating your own definition to avoid facing facts and data. By changing healthy to something immeasurable, you are just making an excuse to avoid data. 1
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Whether the Church says she rejects gay people or not isn't all that significant to me. All I know is many gay people have said they've been rejected by the Church, or have felt so rejected. Most times when it comes to people being or feeling rejected, it matters not what you say, but the message they are receiving. When enough feel rejection, when it's not intended, it's probably time to reconsider the reason for them feeling so rejected. Is the message of rejection coming from the church, or those who claim to speak for the church? I see the message of rejection coming more from those who claim to know that the church really says than from the church leaders themselves. All of the homophobic messages about the church that I know of have come from Internet places like this one. In my actual church meetings I attend, the topic rarely comes up, and when it does it goes something like this "different people experience different temptations and we all need to rely on the Savior to overcome those temptations that we experience" 1
california boy Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: SEE SBC on homosexuality We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ. SEE RCC on Homosexuality The Catholic Church teaches that marriage can only be between a man and a woman,[3][4] and opposes introduction of both civil and religious same-sex marriage.[5][6][7][8][9] The Church also holds that same-sex unions are an unfavorable environment for children and that the legalization of such unions is harmful to society.[10] SEE EOC on homosexualit While Eastern Orthodox churches are autocephalous, there is consensus on official LGBTQ policy. For example, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese lists homosexuality beside fornication, adultery, abortion and abusive sexual behavior as “immoral and inappropriate forms of behavior in and of themselves, and also because they attack the institution of marriage and the family.” It adds that, “the Orthodox Church believes that homosexual behavior is a sin.” Similarly, the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States, declares, “Like adultery and fornication, homosexual acts are condemned by Scripture.” Yet none these religions worked so hard or spent so much to take away the civil rights of gay couples. And as far as I know, they do not refuse to baptize the children of gay couples. I honestly do not have a problem with the church or any church believing that according to their beliefs, marriage is between a man and a woman. I don't really care what names they call us. I am adult enough to know that churches do that all the time. It hardly effects me. Where it gets hostile to the gay community is when that religion seeks to force others to follow those beliefs at the expense of their civil rights. The Mormon church has done that more than any other Christian religion in America. Hard to deny that isn't it.
kllindley Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 23 minutes ago, Gray said: No, I make a good faith effort not to distort people's arguments. No, I'm sending them the opposite message. They're fine just the way they are. They have value, they have hope for a good future in this life. They are not broken or inferior. Someday I hope the church will send them a similar message. How can I explain what makes you gay? First you spend several posts accusing me of speaking for you, and now you berate me because I won't speak for you? I can certainly speak to what the church's message is to gay people. I can't speak to how you interpret that message for yourself. Only you can define what that is. You have three times distorted my argument that pro-SSM/anti-church attitudes are as likely an explanation for increased LDS LGBT suicides as LDS teachings. You "sum up" the Church's message by distorting it. Quote You are a son or daughter of God, and our hearts reach out to you in warmth and affection. Notwithstanding your present same-gender attractions, you can be happy during this life, lead a morally clean life, perform meaningful service in the Church, enjoy full fellowship with your fellow Saints, and ultimately receive all the blessings of eternal life. You won't explain what makes me gay, but you will continue to insist that the Church rejects whatever that is. Here's what makes me gay: experiencing persistent feelings of sexual and/or romantic attraction to other men. Now, the church says that they don't reject those attractions. They affirm that I am welcome and valued just as I am, without having to change those attractions.
california boy Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 31 minutes ago, smac97 said: First, that's not what you said. You said "The church rejects gay people. Emphasis on gay." That is a rank falsehood. Yet another rank falsehood. The church rejects homosexual behavior, regardless of sexual orientation. Precisely what? . Fine. CFR, if you please, for "the message from church HQ" that "{t}he church rejects gay people." Chapter and verse, if you please. Thanks, -Smac Can a gay person get into the Celestial Kingdom without being straight? The message I am getting is NO. You have to become straight in order to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. If that is not telling someone who is gay that God rejects them for being gay, then I don't know what is. Are you hearing a different message? Does God allow someone who is gay into the Celestial Kingdom without becoming straight? Or does the Mormon God reject every gay person until they become straight. 1
kllindley Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 Just now, california boy said: Can a gay person get into the Celestial Kingdom without being straight? The message I am getting is NO. You have to become straight in order to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. If that is not telling someone who is gay that God rejects them for being gay, then I don't know what is. Are you hearing a different message? Does God allow someone who is gay into the Celestial Kingdom without becoming straight? Or does the Mormon God reject every gay person until they become straight. What is gay and straight? Are you serious about accepting science which shows these are socially constructed ideas? Or do you prefer to artificially force people into one of two boxes. What about bisexuality? Can an imperfect person get into the Celestial Kingdom without being perfect? So God rejects all of us until we become perfect?
kllindley Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 26 minutes ago, california boy said: Where it gets hostile to the gay community is when that religion seeks to force others to follow those beliefs at the expense of their civil rights. The Mormon church has done that more than any other Christian religion in America. Hard to deny that isn't it. Funny, the Church never sponsored or campaigned to preserve anti-sodomy laws. If we were really so set on trying to force gays to follow our beliefs, wouldn't that have been an important step? Rather than explicitly supporting Domestic Parnterships that carry all the same legal rights as marriage (according to your Majority Ruling)? Rather than supporting anti-discrimination legislation?
kllindley Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 51 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Whether the Church says she rejects gay people or not isn't all that significant to me. All I know is many gay people have said they've been rejected by the Church, or have felt so rejected. Most times when it comes to people being or feeling rejected, it matters not what you say, but the message they are receiving. When enough feel rejection, when it's not intended, it's probably time to reconsider the reason for them feeling so rejected. Granted, there are many gay people who do not feel rejected in the Church. But keep in mind a leader of the church recently said, there are no homosexual members of the Church--thus, giving anyone who so identifies (homosexual) reason to think he/she is clearly rejected. I get what he meant, but that doesnt' mean the message to one who identifies as homosexual doesn't feel rejected. When two people experience such different things from the Church, can we really blame the Church? Wouldn't it make more sense to look for some difference between the two people that would account for their differing experiences. Many of the gay people I know who have left the Church don't so much feel rejected by the Church as they reject the Church. They decide that they are not willing to sacrifice the unrestrained expression of their sexuality. They choose to reject the Church's narrative about sexuality. That is their choice and I respect it. But it is not fair to characterize it as rejection from the Church.
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 26 minutes ago, california boy said: Can a gay person get into the Celestial Kingdom without being straight? The message I am getting is NO. You have to become straight in order to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. If that is not telling someone who is gay that God rejects them for being gay, then I don't know what is. Are you hearing a different message? Does God allow someone who is gay into the Celestial Kingdom without becoming straight? Or does the Mormon God reject every gay person until they become straight. Maybe I am misunderstanding what it means to be gay and straight everyone always tells me that homosexual actions do not make a person gay. On the other hand, if I understand correctly, straight actions do not make one straight. If my understanding is correct, then inheriting the Celestial Kingdom involves behavior, and not orientation. As far as I am aware there is no orientation requirement (as I understand the meaning of orientation).
stemelbow Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 56 minutes ago, Danzo said: Is the message of rejection coming from the church, or those who claim to speak for the church? Distinction without a difference to me. The Church is the people who make it up. If anyone feels rejection from someone in the church, speaking for the Church, it doesn't really matter if that one is supposed to speak for the Church or not. But, in answer to your question...probably both at least in some cases. But I dont' them all. 56 minutes ago, Danzo said: I see the message of rejection coming more from those who claim to know that the church really says than from the church leaders themselves. All of the homophobic messages about the church that I know of have come from Internet places like this one. In my actual church meetings I attend, the topic rarely comes up, and when it does it goes something like this "different people experience different temptations and we all need to rely on the Savior to overcome those temptations that we experience" Well, even the message you indicate may come off as pretty dismissive to some. The topic comes up quite frequently in church for me. And normally when it does get raised it's a defensive or sarcastic comment about gay people in general. It's not good.
Gray Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 59 minutes ago, smac97 said: First, that's not what you said. You said "The church rejects gay people. Emphasis on gay." That is a rank falsehood. Yet another rank falsehood. The church rejects homosexual behavior, regardless of sexual orientation. Precisely what? . Fine. CFR, if you please, for "the message from church HQ" that "{t}he church rejects gay people." Chapter and verse, if you please. Thanks, -Smac Hi smac, I think the analogy I posted earlier best explains what I'm trying to get at here: Quote Let's suppose that I wanted to join a model RC airplane club. The rules of the club are clear. They claim they accept Mormons as members, but they have a caveat. Mormons who attend LDS church services, wear garments, read LDS scriptures, or continue to believe in LDS doctrines will be banned from the club. In what way does the model RC airplane club "accept" Mormons as members? The LDS approach to homosexuality is similar. We accept gay people, so long as they don't do anything "gay" and reject their feelings on the matter. I don't think this can reasonably be called acceptance. The approach seems to be tolerance for gay people outside of the church, and rejection within the church. 1
stemelbow Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 18 minutes ago, kllindley said: When two people experience such different things from the Church, can we really blame the Church? I'm not advocating blaming anyone, in particular. But the Church is only the people. We can certainly hold people accountable, even those who are leaders of the Church. 18 minutes ago, kllindley said: Wouldn't it make more sense to look for some difference between the two people that would account for their differing experiences. Sure...that' could certainly be beneficial. I'm just saying if there is enough of a complaint about being rejected by a certain population, then there is reason to ask, why they feel such. And if the reason for that is because members are too insensitive. Then there's something. if it's because leaders don't seem to quite get where gay people are coming from...well there's something. I'm not advocating that this is all easy stuff. There is most certainly a great deal of complication in nearly anyone who feels rejected--meaning they most likely felt, at least in part accepted, loved, otherwise they wouldn't ever feel offended when they felt rejected. 18 minutes ago, kllindley said: Many of the gay people I know who have left the Church don't so much feel rejected by the Church as they reject the Church. They decide that they are not willing to sacrifice the unrestrained expression of their sexuality. They choose to reject the Church's narrative about sexuality. That is their choice and I respect it. But it is not fair to characterize it as rejection from the Church. I agree with your last sentence to an extent. It's not quite that simple. But, again, that doesn't mean people don't feel rejected by the Church.
Gray Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Danzo said: We are talking about the health of people with three attributes 1. Active LDS: I have provided many links to show that LDS live longer and are more healthy 2. Active Youth: I have provided links to show active LDS youth are seven times less likely to commit suicide, I have also provided links that show that youth that attend church regularly are much less likely to commit suicide. I have also showed that they are less likely to engage in unhealthy behaviors 3. LGTB: The data shows that being LGTB increases risk of suicides, so we know the Being an active LDS Youth reduces suicide, has a dampening effect We know that Being a LGTB Youth increases suicide, or has an amplifying effect You are postulating that for a LGTB Youth who is active LDS, being Active LDS stops reducing suicide for LGTB people and turns into an amplifier for suicide. You are right, there is no evidence for this amplification effect. What you are missing is data on active LGBT LDS youth. It sounds like what you're suggesting is that by being active LDS, LGBT youth will "dampen" their sexual orientation and therefore become happier and healthier. There is no data to suggest that is what happens. We do have data that suggests rejection fuels LGBT suicide. And rejection is what they will face in the LDS church. Edited July 12, 2016 by Gray 1
Gray Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Danzo said: They are easily measured indicators of health. I provided evidence that active lds live longer, there can't be any better definition of health than living (dying isn't very healthy) I think you're ignoring quality of life in that assessment. 1 hour ago, Danzo said: Even if you don't think that avoiding suicide, drugs and gang fights is the totality of being healthy most reasonable people can agree that they can be objective indicators of being healthy. I think you are creating your own definition to avoid facing facts and data. By changing healthy to something immeasurable, you are just making an excuse to avoid data. What I'm saying is that your data is not strong enough to make your case for you. Being LDS seems to correlate with avoiding some of the worst outcomes, very broadly speaking. But you're going beyond what the data says by trying to argue that this is all there is to health and well being.
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Distinction without a difference to me. The Church is the people who make it up. From what I see, those giving that message are people who are outside the mainstream church telling gays what the church thinks of them. Kinda of like the Anti Mormon preachers who often to tell me what the church really believes.
Gray Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 56 minutes ago, kllindley said: You have three times distorted my argument that pro-SSM/anti-church attitudes are as likely an explanation for increased LDS LGBT suicides as LDS teachings. I haven't distorted your argument. But I do think your argument was incoherent. Quote Here's what makes me gay: experiencing persistent feelings of sexual and/or romantic attraction to other men. Now, the church says that they don't reject those attractions. They affirm that I am welcome and valued just as I am, without having to change those attractions. The church does reject that. Your orientation is characterized as a temptation, something for you to fight against every day. That is a rejection. I'm glad you are able to take that rejection and turn it around into something positive for you. Thanks for explaining your perspective. Edited July 12, 2016 by Gray
stemelbow Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Danzo said: From what I see, those giving that message are people who are outside the mainstream church telling gays what the church thinks of them. Kinda of like the Anti Mormon preachers who often to tell me what the church really believes. there's surely some of that too. I agree.
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, stemelbow said: The topic comes up quite frequently in church for me. And normally when it does get raised it's a defensive or sarcastic comment about gay people in general. It's not good. If i might ask, what part of the world do you live in, I have lived In California, Arizona and Oregon (along with a mission in Italy) and homosexuality has been discussed quite rarely in church meetings (it comes up ocasionally, but usually in the context of the law of chastity and then only as to examples of breaking the law of chastity). If I were to estimate the frequency the topic come up I would say two or three times a year, if that. It would seem from your comments that this might be a hot topic in some parts of the world.
Daniel2 Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) On 07/07/2016 at 3:57 PM, Danzo said: Your news sources are misleading and are cherry picking their data. http://health.utah.gov/opha/publications/hsu/1502_Suicide.pdf in it the graph shows that, indeed, from 2007 to 2013 the rates almost tripled, but 2005-2009 were stastically low years. If you changed the endpoints for the analysis to 2004, you will find that the rate has only slightly gone up. My conclusion is that George W Bush being elected president depressed suicide rates while the passage of Obamacare increased the rates. But seriously, if you are genuinely concerned about Suicide rates among teens and other groups you should look at all of the numbers and not just those that confirm your particular agenda. According to the linked article, weekly religious attendance and family meals lower the risk, while watching tv and being bullied increase the risk Also from http://www.health.utah.gov/vipp/teens/youth-suicide/ 63% of suicide decedents having had contact with the juvenile courts. 54% of the decedents who had contact with juvenile court had a referral(s) for substance possession, use, or abuse and 32% had one felony referral. 23% had a special education evaluation, primarily for behavioral disorders. 35% had either a suspension or expulsion from school. so it would seem that obeying the word of wisdom, as well as staying out of trouble (both things the churches Youth programs emphasize) are also helpful First, I apologize for the tardiness of my responses. Real Life has kept me occupied for the last week, and there are several posts in this thread that I’d like to respond to, despite the fact that the thread has grown by almost ten pages since I last was able to post. You may feel like ‘my"’ news sources (which are virtually all mainstream media outlets--you can't get more mainstream than "The Associated Press") are "cherry picking the data," but from what I've read, Utah Health Officials who released the report seem to be on the same page and share the same views of the findings. Their concerned response about the rise in suicides reflect the data as reported by the mainstream news agencies, to the extent that Utah Officials themselves are launching investigations into the issue of the rising teen suicide numbers to try to get more information about what’s caused the rising numbers. Based on what you've read, it appears that you don't believe both the news agencies, the Utah Heath Officials, and would therefore presumably disagree with their decision to investigate why the numbers are rising... My own personal experience matches the data as reported, and the Utah Health Officials' response, and their decision to open up further investigations. From my perspective, it seems your allegations of "cherry-picking" and your own re-interpretation of the data is possibly due to an apparent desire to discredit the report and the Health Officials' response into a denial of the problem of rising teen suicides. I'm not sure how that's a win for anyone, especially for those teens who are and those that will continue to be prone to killing themselves. Based on what I feel are alarming numbers, matched by the tragic events I’ve personally been witness to over the last month, I support further inquiry and investigation into examining the sources, causes, and prevention of teen suicide, and, in the meantime, doing all we can to reach out to teens and try to help them avoid whatever causes are driving them to take their own lives. Denial or allegations of cherry-picking don’t help the lives of those that we’ve lost, or all those future possible losses that may be on the horizon. Further, while I appreciate the LDS church's recent response lamenting the loss of life due to suicide for any reason, I am disappointed that to my knowledge, the Church hasn't ever squarely addressed the issue of the higher incidence of suicide among LGBT teens. While I understand that some see groups like The Mama Dragons as having positioned themselves against the LDS church, most of the mothers I have interacted with feel that a change in LDS doctrine isn't necessary for the church to speak out in loving ways directly to LDS teens struggling with issues relating to their sexual orientation. Many of them feel, as I do, that the vague or general statements about suicide don't go quite far enough in speaking to the specific type of depression felt by LDS gay or lesbian teenagers--and they base that feeling on direct observation and personal experiences as they listen, try to help, and continue to lose their struggling children to suicide. Given the undeniable numbers that LGBT teens are four times more likely to attempt suicide than the general population, it doesn’t seem unreasonable for parents trying to keep their Faith and families intact could petition for their leaders to offer some words of compassionate concern with the aim of helping save lives of LDS LGBT teens. Many of these parents feel, as I do, that the vague statements about suicide or depression (in general) don't go quite far enough in speaking to the depression felt by LDS gay or lesbian teenagers--and they base that feeling on direct observation and personal experiences as they listen, try to help, and continue to lose their struggling children to suicide. They hope for an unequivocal statement of love and hope and support for LDS gay and lesbian teens... And again, that doesn't require a change in doctrine. I realize some have postulated that the suicide that LDS gay and lesbian teens struggle with suicide in greater numbers because of what they believe to be/see as pressures, confusion, or the message that sexual orientation is immutable the pro-gay side. Those concepts are not reflected in the data that's been collected in studies about suicidal tendencies among LGBT teens and young adults. And in fact, the ongoing talking points about suicide in The Netherlands is also explained in said sources. For more info, I highly recommend parts 3 and 4 of the following podcast, which reviews the research: http://www.gaymormonstories.org/091-making-sense-of-the-research-on-homosexuality-biological-factors-part-3/ http://www.gaymormonstories.org/092-making-sense-of-the-research-on-homosexuality-biological-factors-part-4/ More to come... Thanks, Daniel Edited July 12, 2016 by Daniel2
Danzo Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Gray said: It sounds like what you're suggesting is that by being active LDS, LGBT youth will "dampen" their sexual orientation Where do you come up with this? The data suggest that being active LDS has a dampening effect on suicide it says nothing about sexual orientation. The Data show that being active LDS has a dampening effect on suicide rates, a negative correlation, if you will. Why does this Idea seem strange to you? You seem obsessed with the idea the being LDS is somehow dangerous or "Unhealthy" I guess you are free to believe this, but it is not what the data show. Maybe this is a faith based belief? Edited July 12, 2016 by Danzo
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