Weakened testimony from church history

[Southwest]

Hi all, 

I just found this place surfing the net and I thought it would be a good place to find support and opinions on things that have been weighing heavily on my mind.

As a background, I'm 26 and served a mission which I loved. There were many experiences on my mission that solidified my testimony. I knew it was true, or at least I believed with every part of my soul that it was.

There have always been aspects of church history that have bothered me but didn't think much of it. However, I ha e come across so many that I am left wondering what kind of a church i have belonged to all these years.

There are so many things like Brigham Young teaching his whole life that Adam is God the Father, saying God revealed it to him, the almost purely Masonic Temple endowment coming out less than a month after Jospeh Smith became a Freemason, Joseph Smith marrying already married women and hiding his involvement in polygamy for 10 years, the Book of Abraham facsimiles being nothing more than ordinary funerary scrolls found all over Egypt, etc.

I'm just confused because all of these ring not true in my mind, whereas other things ring true like the core doctrines. Is it possible for the Church to be true even if prophets have taught false doctrine in the name of God? Can it be true if something so fundamental like the temple is significantly changed every few decades?

 

Sorry to unload, I have just been wrestling with these things in my mind.

[Glenn101]

First of all I would advise you to go to http://www.fairmormon.org/ and you will be able to find articles on everyone of the issues you have raised. They are not official church articles, but the issues have been well researched and provide plausible answers.

That, being said, the only way to have a wavering testimony strengthened is through the operations of the Holy Ghost. You might want to peruse the current topic on "Faith in the Current Church" and read posts by Jeanne and Stargazer to provide two different perspectives on this issue.

Good luck.

Glenn

[rpn]

7 hours ago, Southwest said:

There are so many things like Brigham Young teaching his whole life that Adam is God the Father, saying God revealed it to him, the almost purely Masonic Temple endowment coming out less than a month after Jospeh Smith became a Freemason, Joseph Smith marrying already married women and hiding his involvement in polygamy for 10 years, the Book of Abraham facsimiles being nothing more than ordinary funerary scrolls found all over Egypt, etc.

1.  Do you remember when Elder McConkie said, after the 1978 revelation that blacks would hold the priesthood, about how we should all forget what he and others had taught before because then they didn't have the light that they had just been given?   When you look at original documents, you can clearly see that no matter how correlated we are and feel today, the Restoration wasn't simply handed to leaders.   Repeatedly JS and others thought they were figuring something out right, only to learn later that it wasn't.    I think one of the values of lay leadership is that it gives all faithful members the personal experience of trying our best to do what we've been asked to do, to seek and obtain inspiration about how God wants us to do our calling, only to know for certain in retrospect, that what we'd figured out wasn't wholly right.   That should make it easier not to judge others as unrighteous when they didn't get something right.

2.   Do the exact symbols (from wherever they came) matter?  Aren't they just symbols? 

3.   We know from Wilford Woodruff's revelation (see introduction to the manual with his teachings) that God found it necessary to correct the way JS started the sealing, by telling everyone to be sealed to their own direct ancestors.   In JS's day, people thought it was good to be sealed to the most righteous person they knew (it is pretty easy to see this mistake if one doesn't really believe that the atonement can and will cover all repented of sins,and if you think that there will only be a few in the celestial kingdom).    

  In looking at history, we really need to be careful to acknowledge that the facts we think are facts, cannot be assumed to be facts.  Most of what we know is someone's interpretation of the facts of a situation that has a few sources.    Fanny Alger was married to JS by priesthood authority which JS had the keys to give the officiator for an earthly marriage.   It was much later he was given the keys for eternal marriages for polygamy.   Yes, we don't know why JS did that marriage.     http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/common-questions/fanny-alger-2/ But it is easy to understand how JS wouldn't have been pressing polygamy after that without additional authority because of the fallout with Oliver Cowdrey.    I have often wondered if JS didn't do with Fanny Alger what he did, not because he did something wrong with her, but because she had done something wrong that she was confessing to him in the barn that day, and he determined he should protect her from Emma's interpretation when she saw them together.   Maybe that is wishful thinking, but that isn't inconsistent with what Fanny Alger soon did (marrying someone else).   This is just another example of what we have to accept that we don't know the full story.  

4.     Yes, current egyptologists declare that facsimiles described in the BofA are funerary text and interpretation is far different from JS's.   But there are two problems (other than simply faith) with using that info to declare the BofA a fraud.   The first is that it is not unheard of for experts in any field to declare something as fact based on what they then know, only to have experts at some later date declare what they thought was fact, was not fact at all with additional information.   The second is that JS had a huge scroll, only fragments of which still exist.  We have no way of knowing what was on the scrolls that JS had that we no longer have.   Those two things prevent me from writing off BofA, even without any use of faith.

 

Yes there are many unknowns in LDS history and things that are known better and appear to be unexcusably abhorrent (read Mountain Meadows Massacre, lynchings, for example).   But I don't see how anyone can make faith decisions when we know that none of what we think we know at the present is likely the whole and complete information about that situation.   In contrast to our little knowledge, God knew all about what really happened: He left JS and BY as prophets (and all us try to do well, but bumbling mortals in our callings even when our decisions challenge other members' faith.)

Edited May 22, 2016 by rpn

[Deborah]

I suggest you get the DVD's on Church History and The Joseph Smith Papers, both of which have been and are on BYU TV. There is so much more to history than the so called "facts". Context is so important and we are finding so many new documents that put things in perspective.

As rpn said we don't know the full story. Church history especially in the early days was very sporadic and it is only in gathering all the information from all different sources that we are beginning to get a fuller picture (the job of the Joseph Smith Papers project).

Keep in mind as well that prophets are often given the revelation of a doctrine or principle and then they are left to work out the details themselves. The Lord wants us to study and learn and he doesn't feed us everything. As new knowledge is received, both spiritually and in the world of science and study, the purpose of a revelation is made more clear. We have so much more knowledge today than the early leaders had. Just in the study of ancient languages we have so many insights which support the BOM and the BOA.

The more I learn about the history as it is presented in context the stronger my testimony is. It is also important to know that those who are behind these studies and spend the most time on them are more convinced than ever that Joseph Smith was who he said he was.

[Tacenda]

 

I've been on the same road as you for going on 10 years, I was around 44 and didn't know hardly anything about church history.  I do remember one time, right before, the church admonishing members to learn church history.  I wasn't even interested and what I knew of, I was happy with.  It wasn't until I stumbled onto a website about JS's particular way of living polygamy that I soon lost my testimony, I was shell shocked at reading things on top of that first unknown.  Even on FairMormon back when it was FairLDS, it had a list of topics that I'd never heard about, it only substantiated some anti things I had been reading. I think the anti sites are almost going away, since now the anti stuff is on LDS.org now. In the LDS church essays. https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng 

I've been on the fence about our church being either true or false for that long.  I don't budge easily.  I see both sides of the coin.  I see how so many including many close family members believe it to be the one true church, in that it offers them answers that no other church does for them.  But I also see that I've known no other church life, so that leaves me to be very biased.  I've tried going to other churches, usually alone, and didn't feel at home like I do in my own church.  Maybe I didn't give them a chance.  I guess no one really knows the truth until the next life, and maybe go where you feel helps you be your best self.  Many who leave, feel their best selves outside of the faith.  They cannot live a lie, or in their mind's eye, it's a lie.  There are many more things you will come across now.  The church is being straightforward about a lot of things, because they need to inoculate the younger generation, so that the youth when they are your age, won't think twice about the unknowns like you have.

I think it's going to get worse before it gets better and a lot of people will leave the church.  I know there are a lot of podcasts that help you stay in the faith, such as Mormon Matters or Dialogue a Journal of Mormon Thought where they aren't one-sided, if you're like me and like to listen to podcasts.  And of course there are podcasts that will be the complete opposite, that you may want to avoid.  It all depends on what you want to do.  Some have had spiritual affirmations that the church is true, and they feel it is enough.  I never have, only good feelings of the good the members do or the good organization that the church is.  

Good luck in your walk, and bring up any questions you have about the church, this board has seen it all, and there are some incredible scholars that might help, and there are those that are no longer in the church that can help you feel less alone in your doubts.  As long as the conversation is respectful, things will go well.  That's why I love this board so much, you get both sides.     

Edited May 22, 2016 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

20 hours ago, Southwest said:

Hi all, 

I just found this place surfing the net and I thought it would be a good place to find support and opinions on things that have been weighing heavily on my mind.

As a background, I'm 26 and served a mission which I loved. There were many experiences on my mission that solidified my testimony. I knew it was true, or at least I believed with every part of my soul that it was.

There have always been aspects of church history that have bothered me but didn't think much of it. However, I ha e come across so many that I am left wondering what kind of a church i have belonged to all these years.

There are so many things like Brigham Young teaching his whole life that Adam is God the Father, saying God revealed it to him, the almost purely Masonic Temple endowment coming out less than a month after Jospeh Smith became a Freemason, Joseph Smith marrying already married women and hiding his involvement in polygamy for 10 years, the Book of Abraham facsimiles being nothing more than ordinary funerary scrolls found all over Egypt, etc.

I'm just confused because all of these ring not true in my mind, whereas other things ring true like the core doctrines. Is it possible for the Church to be true even if prophets have taught false doctrine in the name of God? Can it be true if something so fundamental like the temple is significantly changed every few decades?

 

Sorry to unload, I have just been wrestling with these things in my mind.

Hello Southwest,

It is good to hear from you.  Many of us understand your situation.  Faith is an interesting adventure that is not for the faint of heart or for those who would prefer that faith just fell out of the heavens on their head and never required any effort.

I have had several Orthodox Jewish friends during my life.  Their history and culture is fascinating.  I think they have a lot to teach us.  One friend said several times that anyone that read the Old Testament and still believed in God showed true faith.  Reading the New Testament it was always hard for me to understand how a man that Jesus called to be one of his apostles, who learned at his feet, and who knew that he was the Son of God could still betray him.  

I guess the moral of religious history is that God uses mortal men to accomplish his work on earth.  These men are every bit as frail as you are or as I am.  The difference, and it is a big one, is that they have been called of God to serve and have the mantle on their shoulders.  The mantle does not perfect humans, but it empowers them to act in God's name.  It does not make them smarter, more holy, more righteous, or better - it means they were called and they responded to that calling in the affirmative - they were willing to serve.

I have studied church history for decades.  Some of things I think are easy to answer and other things can be problematic.  However, the thing to remember is that church history, Old Testament history, and New Testament history never saved a single child of God.  The grace of salvation comes in and through Jesus Christ and no one else.  This is his Church and he has directed us to teach his gospel to the world so that all may know of his atonement and love for each of  his children; inviting all to repent and come unto him.  

I have also studied most of the religions of the world.  So many of them have great truths and ways of living those truths - that have much to teach us.  Yet none of them teach a gospel of Exaltation, a fullness of Jesus' gospel.  They can teach us some things, but we have much to teach the world.  More importantly, the priesthood keys remain and are solely active by the prophet.  

I maintain my faith by remembering what truths we have.  I try to remember that if I am going to judge past prophets and leaders that I will succeed only in condemning myself.  If I am going to judge them, let me begin by accusing them of being human.  After that condemnation what else is there for which to condemn them?  

You are on a path of faith - protect your faith, defend your faith, fight for your faith.  I believe that each of us is a target of the evil one to destroy our faith and join the multitudes that have lost touch with the iron rod and have joined those who sneer at all those who are faithful and committed to walk the path of faith.  

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, rpn said:

.................................................................................................................  

4.     Yes, current egyptologists declare that facsimiles described in the BofA are funerary text and interpretation is far different from JS's.  

......................................................................................

Actually, modern Egyptology is fraught with a variety of opinions on a lot of issues directly related to the BofA facsimiles.  However, aside from the mitigating factors you mention, a direct comparison of Joseph's explanations for the facsimiles and standard Egyptological explanations shows that they quite often match up.  The other thing which might be mentioned is that the contents of the BofA and the facsimiles themselves are often tightly paralleled in traditional Jewish Abrahamic literature, as well as by some Jewish magical papyri.  I mention some salient points in my “A Brief Assessment of the LDS Book of Abraham,” Dec 2012, version 8 online August 18, 2014, at http://www.scribd.com/doc/118810727/A-Brief-Assessment-of-the-LDS-Book-of-Abraham .

[Mystery Meat]

You are facing an awesome opportunity; a time to exercise real faith. I have often said on this board that humans crave certainty. I believe it why tesimonies often begin with "I know", when "I believe" is just as valid and may be a more accurate statement. Pretending or believing we are certain, in my estimation, prevents us from exercising faith. You have clearly had experiences with the Spirit. You clearly feel good about the most important things the Gospel of Jesus Christ has to offer. Now, you can stretch your spiritual muscles, tell the Lord in prayer you don't understand the meaning of all things, and exercise faith. I had a similar experience to you a few years ago. I am not certain of everything, but my exercise of REAL faith has yielded real fruit and strengthened my testimony. I am certain that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ and that both have used this Church to bless my life. I have a strong belief and testimony that Joseph Smith was called of God, that the Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and that the Church continues to be led by modern revelation and priesthood authority today. Acting in accordance with this knowledge and belief has continued to yield incomparable fruit and results. Keep you chip up, put your head down, and relish in the chance to exercise the FIRST principal of the gospel (it is the first for a reason). Many there be that will not (and can not) muster the courage to accept that ambiguity and embrace faith. Understand, that there will likely never be the sort of evidence that would remove all doubt from a doubter's mind (at least not until it is too late). They will not embrace faith and will therefore never know. Questions are good, doubts need to be overcome. "Doubt not, fear not."  

My prayers and faith are with you.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[Mystery Meat]

One other bit of advice: I would avoid online communities that attach and belittle faith, the Church, its leaders and the membership. There will be few things that will quash faith faster than such voices, as we learn in the vision of the Tree of Life.

[Kevin Christensen]

Look closely at D&C 1, which includes a formal declaration of "mine authority and the authority of my servants."  The point is to set expectations.

Quote

These commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

And inasmuch as they erred, it might be made known;

And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

And inasmuch as they sinned, they might be chastened that they might repent;

And inasmuch as they were made humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

Also concerning doctrine, I notice that in 3 Nephi 11:39-40 Jesus not only makes a far more limited declaration of what constitutes "doctrine" (limiting it to faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the Holy Spirit and enduring to the end) but also points out the consequences for belief for those who try to build their faith on a more expansive expectation.

And regarding the relationship of history and scholarship to testimony, try Davis Bitton here, "I Don't have a Testimony of the History of the Church::

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1459&index=17

Best

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited May 23, 2016 by Kevin Christensen

[bluebell]

On May 22, 2016 at 1:22 AM, Southwest said:

I'm just confused because all of these ring not true in my mind, whereas other things ring true like the core doctrines. 

My only word of advice is to be careful about adopting yourself as the standard that you measure whether or not something is true against.

"I agree with it so it's true and i don't agree with it so it's not" isn't going to serve you very well.  If this gospel truly stems from a being so amazing that we can barely comprehend Him, there are going to be times when we will be uncomfortable, will disagree, or won't understand His will and His actions (it's really no different than how children view the choices and decisions and actions of their parents).  

That doesn't mean we aren't to seek confirmation and should just accept things we disagree with because.  But it does mean that 'it doesn't ring true' shouldn't count for much.

[CV75]

On 5/22/2016 at 3:22 AM, Southwest said:

I'm just confused because all of these ring not true in my mind, whereas other things ring true like the core doctrines. Is it possible for the Church to be true even if prophets have taught false doctrine in the name of God? Can it be true if something so fundamental like the temple is significantly changed every few decades?

Of course yes, anything is possible.

I prefer to look at these things through the principle that the Church is true only when two conditions exist together: 1) the Spirit bears witness of it and 2) when the recipient of that witness continues to abide in that witness in faith. No matter what I think of others’ claims and conclusions to the contrary, the Church is only true – to them – when they have received, abide in (or not deny) and share that witness.

Thus the Church remains true to me no matter what someone else can do or did, and no matter whom they are or were, and no matter what we think or imagine they actually did within our interpretation of the available human record.

The Spirit will bear witness (subject to the Father’s will that He do so) of that which is tied to “the fundamental principles of our religion [which] are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven.”

So, whatever might be understood of history, and however damning the arguments over it might be made to seem, when the Spirit has born witness of the Church and I stay true to that, I can always say “the Church is true.” Likewise, whatever might be understood (or misunderstood) of doctrine, and however damning the arguments over it may be made to seem, when the Spirit has born witness of the fundamental principles of our religion, and we are true to Him, we can always say they are true, while practices, policies, organizations and structures are bound to change from time to time as the stone becomes a mountain and the harvest increases and increases.

When keeping the foundation or personal revelation in good shape, we can study anything and not allow our knowledge in the appendages (real and imagined) to undermine our faith in the fundamental principles.

Edited May 23, 2016 by CV75

[Guest]

(Too paraphrase) "some things do not ring true, while other core doctrines do". Then hold on to that which you know to be true, and search out the answers to that with you say you struggle with, this is all any can do, better yet what faith calls us to do. I grew up in a very fundamentalist small Baptist Church environment, where nothing was questioned and everything fact in the minds of teachers and Pastor. The age of the earth, the creation story within that timeframe, the flood, which included the ideas of many that every animals (including pre-historic) were on the Ark, etc, etc, etc. As I have grown older, I found that the universe is about 13.8 billion years old, the Earth 5.8 billion. Ther we no pre-historic animals on the Ark, since they all died millions of years before "any" world-wide flood. But I know there is a God, an Eden, and possibly a world-wide flood (even if not world-wide) or regional to Norh's world. 

Also, a number of the things you listed are not as cut and dry and you inferred. In fact the list and facts are common anti-Mormon arguments that are found floating in a world-wide flood of the Internet. I know this because I have swam in that flood for many years lending my efforts to rebut much of it. Here on this site and others you can find the real truths from both sides, Spiritual and Secular. It is profoundly clear that the LDS Church does not teach Adam-God doctrine, in no way as Brigham suggested. In fact little of what any Latter-day Prophets have taught has made it way into LDS Canon. This for two reasons, it is redundant teaching from already established Scripture, or that the Apostles were not asked, or would not allow it to be added to modern Canon. The older I get, I see that so many who have lost their way in our most unique Church have done so by putting to much faith in Church as a guide and too little into Jesus Christ who is "The Guide". The Church is an Earthly organization meant to prepare us for a Heavenly one. To extend the metaphor...it is a ship, a steady ship...but that ship still gets buffeted by the sea, still piloted by flawed and extrodanary men and women. So many (and when it comes to the souls of men, even one is too many) decide that because of errors, real or imagined, that they will jump ship and go it alone. However once they jump overboard they soon find that they nor the captain of the ship can walk on water, only the Captian of our souls can do that, and only him. Can anyone tell I just got back from a cruise?

Faith "Southwest" Faith, joined with study and prayer will bring any through the storm!