In Defense of BYU's Honor Code

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thanks for the info,  I didn't know that Paul Revere passed away.  Interesting about Peter..that he would take the time to know so much about the place of a concert.  Since last night, I have also thought about the Association, the Everlly Brothers and many more.  Thanks for letting me know you can get a lot on youtube. 

Alas, we lost Phil Everly to lung disease about a year and a half ago. Don Everly is still alive, but is showing his age. They are great. When I sit down with my guitar at home, I'm apt to sing and play a string of Everly Brothers tunes before doing anything else.

Larry Ramos, who joined the Association soon after the group became famous and has been an integral part of the group ever since, died a couple of years ago. Larry, Hawaiian by birth and Japanese by ethnicity, was a former member of the New Christy Minstrels.

The membership of the band is dwindling. Terry Kirkman, whom I consider to be the creative force behind the band, has not toured with it for many years. Terry wrote "Cherish" and "Everything That Touches You."

One constant in the Association is Jim Yester, who has been in the group from the very first. He is the lead singer in "Along Comes Mary."

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Alas, we lost Phil Everly to lung disease about a year and a half ago. Don Everly is still alive, but is showing his age. They are great. When I sit down with my guitar at home, I'm apt to sing and play a string of Everly Brothers tunes before doing anything else.

Larry Ramos, who joined the Association soon after the group became famous and has been an integral part of the group ever since, died a couple of years ago. Larry, Hawaiian by birth and Japanese by ethnicity, was a former member of the New Christy Minstrels.

The membership of the band is dwindling. Terry Kirkman, whom I consider to be the creative force behind the band, has not toured with it for many years. Terry wrote "Cherish" and "Everything That Touches You."

One constant in the Association is Jim Yester, who has been in the group from the very first. He is the lead singer in "Along Comes Mary."

Thanks for all the info.  I still have an old album of the Association and loved the songs you mentioned.  I loved the Letterman too.

Sounds like you should be in the music business or get into the arts of the DN!

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thanks for all the info.  I still have an old album of the Association and loved the songs you mentioned.  I loved the Letterman too.

The Lettermen -- now there's a Mormon connection for you.

Two of the original three members (on the recordings), Bob Engemann and Jim Pike, are Mormons who met at BYU in the 1950s. With Tony Butala, they made the first Lettermen recordings in 1960. 
Engemenn died couple of years ago. The two Mormons had departed the group some years earlier and sold their interest in the Lettermen name to Butala. Thereafter, they regrouped with Ric de Azevedo and began performing Lettermen hits in concerts under the name Reunion. I always felt Reunion was more authentically Lettermen than the official Lettermen, as Reunion contained two-thirds of the original trio.

All of the classic hits that we typically associate with the Lettermen were recorded by Engemann and Pike with Butala.

Quote

 

Sounds like you should be in the music business or get into the arts of the DN!

 

I've written concert reviews for the paper before, but not for many years. As I got older, I kind of lost touch with the pop music scene.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

My apologies if repeating someonelse's work, hard to search due to crashing tech:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865659718/BYU-under-investigation-by-Department-of-Education-for-handling-of-sexual-assault-reports.html

"PROVO — The federal Office for Civil Rights has launched an investigation into BYU's process for responding to reports of sexual assault, the university announced Monday.

The decision could put at risk BYU's ability to provide federal financial aid to its students as well as other federal funding, if investigators find the school is out of compliance with Title IX guidelines set by the U.S. Department of Education. However, no school has ever lost federal funds. Instead, if found in violation of Title IX, schools work with investigators to come into compliance.

BYU spokeswoman Carri Jenkins said the school learned about the investigation on Thursday. The school is three months into a self-study of its procedures. The Office for Civil Rights does not provide information on cases under investigation.

BYU is the third Utah school under federal investigation for its handling of sexual assault cases. An investigation at Westminster College began in January. Federal investigators are scheduled to visit the University of Utah in the fall. The Office for Civil Rights had 260 open investigations at 202 U.S. colleges and universities as of July 27.

The investigation stems from a complaint filed April 18 by a BYU student. Nineteen-year-old Madi Barney said sexual assault survivors don't feel safe reporting what happened to them to BYU's Title IX Office because it shares information with the school's Honor Code Office.

Rape victims have said they've become subjects of honor code investigations for their own alleged misconduct at the time of an assault, such as drinking alcohol, taking illegal drugs or engaging in extramarital consensual sex. Barney said that after she reported her rape and refused to participate in an Honor Code Office investigation of her, the school placed a hold on her classes.

Survivors say the Honor Code Office creates a chilling effect on reporting at BYU..."

[Calm]

"In mid-May, the council launched a website to obtain feedback about sexual assault and sexual assault reporting. The website gathered more than 3,000 comments in the first 30 days.

The council's goal is to eliminate sexual assault on campus and "determine how to better handle the reporting process for victims of sexual assault as sensitively and compassionately as possible," Monday's press release said."

[thatjimguy]

I love the honor code and have a testimony of it.

However, the idea of an "honor code" is that it is "on your honor". By default, I do not see it as something some else can turn you in for.

 

 

[california boy]

On May 17, 2016 at 11:08 PM, jkwilliams said:

I think there are two separate issues here. I do think the honor code makes BYU a safer campus than it would be without it. But that's irrelevant as to whether linking rape reports to honor code investigations discourages reporting of rapes. Apparently SVU here in Virginia, which has a similar honor code, makes exceptions in cases of sexual assault. I would think that's a no-brainer.

I would like to believe that BUY is a safer campus because those who attend have a strong moral belief that rape is wrong. I doubt very much that if rape was not in the honor code, students would think it was ok to start raping. It is a sad commentary on the intercity of those attending BYU when the only thing keeping them from being moral is the threat that they would be kicked out of school. 

Not much of a resemblance to the teachings of Joseph Smith who evidently had a higher regard for members than the church does today. I wonder what BYU would look like if the honor code was replaced with this revolutionary idea. 

' I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves"

'.  Probably unworkable, right?

[HappyJackWagon]

7 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

I love the honor code and have a testimony of it.

However, the idea of an "honor code" is that it is "on your honor". By default, I do not see it as something some else can turn you in for.

 

 

Is that like having a testimony of Scouting?  Does that mean it's the one true honor code?  I totally agree with your 2nd line.

What do you think of this from the OP essay...

Quote

Perhaps my perspective is skewed from having taught there for a time, but I'd be willing to bet that there simply are fewer sexual assaults at BYU than at most secular universities. And the reason for that lower number is the honor code, as well as the religious and moral culture in which it is embedded.

Is the honor code the reason there are fewer sexual assaults or is it the moral culture that is mentioned at the end of the quote?

Whether or not there was an honor code restricting rape, I would not rape. Just like I would not kill, even if there is no law against it. I find it strange to give so much credit to a written code, rule, or law.

[thesometimesaint]

On 5/17/2016 at 10:48 AM, Ahab said:

Pffftt.  Yeah,  sure, it is technically "adequate".

I would prefer a better name for it, though,  such as BYU simply calling it their 'Code of Conduct' or 'Guide for Acceptable Behavior'.

When we go to BYU we promise on our honor to obey the Honor Code.

[rongo]

On 5/18/2016 at 1:19 PM, Jeanne said:

Thanks for all the info.  I still have an old album of the Association and loved the songs you mentioned.  I loved the Letterman too.

Sounds like you should be in the music business or get into the arts of the DN!

My family is old-fashioned. I'm 41, and my wife is 37, and our four kids are 16, 14, 12, and 10. We listen to oldies, and really like the Association. "Enter the Young" would be a good song to play as the basketball team comes out . . .

My wife and I went to a "Reunion" concert when we were first married (Engemann and Jim Pike from the Lettermen with a younger man replacing Tony Buttolo). We were by far the youngest people there . . .  My parents saw the Lettermen on their honeymoon.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

 "Enter the Young" would be a good song to play as the BYU basketball team comes out . . .

Fixed it.

[bsjkki]

BYU's honor code office acted dishonorably.  After reading about the Title IX investigation on this thread, I researched for more information and came across this story from June 1st in the Salt Lake Trib.  I'd missed it.  http://www.sltrib.com/home/3956084-155/state-investigating-how-byu-police-access?fullpage=1  Here are the pertinent paragraphs.

"But BYU documents, obtained by The Tribune and verified by Provo police, show BYU police already had used the Spillman database to access those Provo police records — apparently at the behest of the Honor Code Office — before Deputy Edwin Randolph brought the file to the school.

According to reports by an Honor Code investigator, or "counselor," Randolph had called the Honor Code Office on Nov. 20, three days before he delivered Barney's file. The counselor wrote down numerous allegations Randolph made against Barney during that call.

The counselor wrote in her report that on the same day, she asked BYU police Lt. Aaron Rhoades to seek information on the rape case.

Logs from the records system show Rhoades accessed Barney's case that day, Provo police reports state. According to an Honor Code Office report, Rhoades described viewing a "long police report with 3-4 supplements," and he relayed intimate details from the file to the counselor."

The BYU Honor Code office, acting on tips from the alleged rapists friend, asked the BYU Police to access records from the Provo Police to be used in an honor code investigation. The BYU police forwarded details of an ongoing investigation into a rape to the honor code office. Is that even legal? Conveniently, after being asked for records the BYU and Provo police requested an investigation so they didn't have to turn over records.  Slimy.

[Calm]

I would like to know if this is typical or if it is limited to this one person.  The counselor should be fired, imo, and if it is a typical action of the Office, changes should be made.