In Defense of BYU's Honor Code

[Jeanne]

You know, honor code or not, the students still have to make choices.  Let's make the priority one of safety enough to eliminate fear.  Get rid of some extra stuff long beards, hair, shirts..and in my personal opinion, both sexes should be able to have a party in a room..not liqour or anything but something that says it is okay to socialize.  This lets them learn how to be grownups.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Jeanne

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jeanne said:

You know, honor code or not, the students still have to make choices.  Let's make the priority one of safety enough to eliminate fear.

Amen to that.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

You know, honor code or not, the students still have to make choices.  Let's make the priority one of safety enough to eliminate fear.  Get rid of some extra stuff long beards, hair, shirts..and in my personal opinion, both sexes should be able to have a party in a room..not liqour or anything but something that says it is okay to socialize.  This lets them learn how to be grownups.

Your effort to draw a connection between standards of dress and grooming with making the university unsafe for potential rape victims is tenuous indeed.

In fact, did you read the link in the OP, written by a non-Mormon who said he would feel his daughter would be safer attending a university with standards such as those at BYU?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Amen to that.

So you agree, then, that there would be fewer incidents of rape at BYU if the university began allowing men to wear beards?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your effort to draw a connection between standards of dress and grooming with making the university unsafe for potential rape victims is tenuous indeed.

In fact, did you read the link in the OP, written by a non-Mormon who said he would feel his daughter would be safer attending a university with standards such as those at BYU?

I think there are two separate issues here. I do think the honor code makes BYU a safer campus than it would be without it. But that's irrelevant as to whether linking rape reports to honor code investigations discourages reporting of rapes. Apparently SVU here in Virginia, which has a similar honor code, makes exceptions in cases of sexual assault. I would think that's a no-brainer.

[toon]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That the honor code as presently constituted is "silly" is assuming facts not in evidence.

It's the same story wherever you go: Those who are dialed into the standards and willing to abide by them have nothing to worry about.

In all my years at BYU, I never had any experience or association with the standards office. I didn't even know -- and don't to this day -- where it was located.

 

The honor code is what it is, and I agree that students who attend BYU commit themselves to fully abiding by in every detail, whether or not they think it's silly.  Seems the question, however, is whether there are circumstances where alleged violations should not be investigation (call it amnesty or whatever) because of some overriding concern.

I think that encouraging victims of serious crimes such as sexual assault to come forward and report is an example of an overriding concern.  I don't think it would be problematic or undermine the honor code for the school to assure victims of (and perhaps witnesses to) serious crimes they will not be investigated for and perhaps granted amnesty from honor code violations they have committed that may be related to the crime in question, so long as they are reporting in good faith.

An example would be a student who was under the influence when assaulted.  So long as he or she was acting in good faith, there would be no investigation into or punishment for that person's conduct.  But if the report was in bad faith (recognizing that bad faith is often extremely difficult to prove), then the conduct as well as the bad faith report would be fair game. Also, if the victim reported, and at some point there after, whether as part of its investigation into the alleged assault or even independent of that investigation, it came to light that the victim was involved in some conduct completely unrelated to the assault, say the school stumbled upon academic fraud, then that could be investigated.

I think I posted this in prior thread, but I told my kids when they were in high school and into college that they could always call me if they found themselves in any situation that they needed to get out of, regardless of whether they bore some responsibility in getting there, and I would come to pick them up, no questions asked.  The example was them being at a party, drinking, and then things got out of hand or uncomfortable.  I would much rather they use me as their escape valve than continue in a bad situation out of fear that they'd get in trouble.

[Jeanne]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your effort to draw a connection between standards of dress and grooming with making the university unsafe for potential rape victims is tenuous indeed.

In fact, did you read the link in the OP, written by a non-Mormon who said he would feel his daughter would be safer attending a university with standards such as those at BYU?

 

I understand what you are saying Scott. I do.  What I was trying to put together was that getting rid of some of the stuff in the honor code wouldn't hinder decision making..and that choices, even small ones like hair and clothes lets kids have a little control..enough control to learn something and to grow up.  By comparison, I only meant that making sure rapes are reported should imo, come before the honor code rules.  I do like the idea on campus of no liquor..no drugs and wild parties and stuff ad BYU and every other school has a right for policies on this. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Jeanne

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, toon said:

The honor code is what it is, and I agree that students who attend BYU commit themselves to fully abiding by in every detail, whether or not they think it's silly.  Seems the question, however, is whether there are circumstances where alleged violations should not be investigation (call it amnesty or whatever) because of some overriding concern.

I think that encouraging victims of serious crimes such as sexual assault to come forward and report is an example of an overriding concern.  I don't think it would be problematic or undermine the honor code for the school to assure victims of (and perhaps witnesses to) serious crimes they will not be investigated for and perhaps granted amnesty from honor code violations they have committed that may be related to the crime in question, so long as they are reporting in good faith.

An example would be a student who was under the influence when assaulted.  So long as he or she was acting in good faith, there would be no investigation into or punishment for that person's conduct.  But if the report was in bad faith (recognizing that bad faith is often extremely difficult to prove), then the conduct as well as the bad faith report would be fair game. Also, if the victim reported, and at some point there after, whether as part of its investigation into the alleged assault or even independent of that investigation, it came to light that the victim was involved in some conduct completely unrelated to the assault, say the school stumbled upon academic fraud, then that could be investigated.

I think I posted this in prior thread, but I told my kids when they were in high school and into college that they could always call me if they found themselves in any situation that they needed to get out of, regardless of whether they bore some responsibility in getting there, and I would come to pick them up, no questions asked.  The example was them being at a party, drinking, and then things got out of hand or uncomfortable.  I would much rather they use me as their escape valve than continue in a bad situation out of fear that they'd get in trouble.

 

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I understand what you are saying Scott. I do.  What I was trying to put together was that getting rid of some of the stuff in the honor code wouldn't hinder decision making..and that choices, even small ones like hair and clothes lets kids have a little control..enough control to learn something and to grow up.  By comparison, I only meant that making sure rapes are reported should imo, come before the honor code rules. 

I believe I have already staked out a position that the university should stand down in terms of honor code enforcement where victims of sexual assault are involved and where such enforcement would hinder the reporting and prosecution of such assaults.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think there are two separate issues here. I do think the honor code makes BYU a safer campus than it would be without it. But that's irrelevant as to whether linking rape reports to honor code investigations discourages reporting of rapes. Apparently SVU here in Virginia, which has a similar honor code, makes exceptions in cases of sexual assault. I would think that's a no-brainer.

See my last post. We don't disagree on this.

 

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I believe I have already staked out a position that the university should stand down in terms of honor code enforcement where victims of sexual assault are involved and where such enforcement would hinder the reporting and prosecution of such assaults.

 

I am glad you did that.  I was just stated my own opinion and I agree with you there.

[toon]

33 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

You know, honor code or not, the students still have to make choices.  Let's make the priority one of safety enough to eliminate fear.  Get rid of some extra stuff long beards, hair, shirts..and in my personal opinion, both sexes should be able to have a party in a room..not liqour or anything but something that says it is okay to socialize.  This lets them learn how to be grownups.

I went to BYU and had a number of run-in's with University Standards, mostly for grooming and clothes issues.  (The Mohawk and pierced ear didn't help.)

But I'm no longer there, and my kids didn't go there, so it's not my call as to whether the items in the honor code make sense.  But I can't imaging anyone attends not knowing full well what is required.  Even I in my pseudo-rebellious days knew that.  As it stands now, I really don't care if BYU imposes stricter standards than other institutions, nor whether those rules makes sense to me.  But isn't that a different question than whether there should be some form of amnesty in order to encourage victims to report sexual assault.

[Jeanne]

32 minutes ago, toon said:

I went to BYU and had a number of run-in's with University Standards, mostly for grooming and clothes issues.  (The Mohawk and pierced ear didn't help.)

But I'm no longer there, and my kids didn't go there, so it's not my call as to whether the items in the honor code make sense.  But I can't imaging anyone attends not knowing full well what is required.  Even I in my pseudo-rebellious days knew that.  As it stands now, I really don't care if BYU imposes stricter standards than other institutions, nor whether those rules makes sense to me.  But isn't that a different question than whether there should be some form of amnesty in order to encourage victims to report sexual assault.

You clarified something that is going on in my own head.  Of course, BYU has every right to establish their honor code and rules that apply for the school.  What ever they do is fine..if the student understands and is willing.  I guess my biggest problem is that it just doesn't make sense..at least some of it.  All I want to happen is just like everybody else here..that if there are rapes..they get reported and that it  takes priority over any honor code violation.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Jeanne

[James Tunney]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That the honor code as presently constituted is "silly" is assuming facts not in evidence.

It's the same story wherever you go: Those who are dialed into the standards and willing to abide by them have nothing to worry about.

In all my years at BYU, I never had any experience or association with the standards office. I didn't even know -- and don't to this day -- where it was located.

 

I guess I was trying to say that at a certain point, the methods of enforcement could be too much or silly even given your logic.  With today's technology, would you, for example, agree to have the honor code enforcement monitor you 24/7?  Would you want your bishop?  Assuming that you have nothing to worry about because you are supposedly dialed into the standards, should BYU be allowed to use drone technology to follow people around to see if they are violating the honor code?  Should BYU be allowed to put a monitor on every student's computer?  Put cameras in their rooms to ensure that the students aren't disobeying the rules with the opposite sex?  Would you agree to have a monitor put on your computer now?

[Tacenda]

Defense or no defense, this isn't on the side of BYU.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/brigham-young-students-universitys-honor-code-made-afraid/story?id=39158286

[Jeanne]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Defense or no defense, this isn't on the side of BYU.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/brigham-young-students-universitys-honor-code-made-afraid/story?id=39158286

Thank you for this.  It makes me want to throw up..but thank you.  It is REAL.

[James Tunney]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for this.  It makes me want to throw up..but thank you.  It is REAL.

 

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Defense or no defense, this isn't on the side of BYU.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/brigham-young-students-universitys-honor-code-made-afraid/story?id=39158286

Like many have said already, just relax the honor code enforcement for rape victims, BYU.  Don't assume that they are guilty of something and that's why they got raped. 

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you agree, then, that there would be fewer incidents of rape at BYU if the university began allowing men to wear beards?

What are you talking about? Where is that coming from? Nothing in my post about beards. I honestly have no idea what you're referring to. Stumped. 

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

What are you talking about? Where is that coming from? Nothing in my post about beards. I honestly have no idea what you're referring to. Stumped. 

I think he was talking about my post.  I am not sure, but you might have gave me a rep point.  Anyway, I tried to explain to Scott what I meant. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

I think he was talking about my post.  I am not sure, but you might have gave me a rep point.  Anyway, I tried to explain to Scott what I meant. 

Oh, it looks like you added to your post after I quoted you. Couldn't figure out why Scott was talking about beards. 

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Oh, it looks like you added to your post after I quoted you. Couldn't figure out why Scott was talking about beards. 

Sorry about that.  Scott and I like each other..really,.  One day he will agree with me about something!  Oh..I know, we both love the Beatles!!

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Sorry about that.  Scott and I like each other..really,.  One day he will agree with me about something!  Oh..I know, we both love the Beatles!!

Well, you're one up on me. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Sorry about that.  Scott and I like each other..really,.  One day he will agree with me about something!  Oh..I know, we both love the Beatles!!

How are you with other British Invasion bands? Dave Clark Five? Herman's Hermits? The Hollies? I <love> the Hollies, even after Graham Nash left and became part of Crosby, Stills and Nash. 

[Jeanne]

37 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How are you with other British Invasion bands? Dave Clark Five? Herman's Hermits? The Hollies? I <love> the Hollies, even after Graham Nash left and became part of Crosby, Stills and Nash. 

Am!! I saw Crosby, Stills and Nash in an outdoor concert in Park City..they were great!  Mrs. Brown was one of my favorite songs of the Herman's Hermits..and of course, Henry the Eighth was just fun.   Remember the outfits?  Ruffled sleeves and high collars?  I loved Paul Revere and Raiders too.  Wow Scott...we are old.  I have a girl at work that doesn't know who John Denver is...Ugh.I hung my head and cried.

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Am!! I saw Crosby, Stills and Nash in an outdoor concert in Park City..they were great!  Mrs. Brown was one of my favorite songs of the Herman's Hermits..and of course, Henry the Eighth was just fun.   Remember the outfits?  Ruffled sleeves and high collars?  I loved Paul Revere and Raiders too.  Wow Scott...we are old.  I have a girl at work that doesn't know who John Denver is...Ugh.I hung my head and cried.

I've seen Peter Noone (Herman) in concert twice within the last 10 years at Draper Park about five minutes away from my home. Both times he mentioned the Draper Temple up on the mountain  to the northeast. He can really connect with an audience. 

The first occasion, he joked about Ebenezer Brown being the ancestor of Mrs. Brown in his song. I was probably one of a minority there who realized Ebenezer Brown was a Mormon pioneer who founded the city of Draper. 

The man must research each venue before he plays there. 

Edited to add: 

Paul Revere died last year, but Mark Lindsay, the lead singer, is still doing oldies concerts. 

Tip: YouTube is a great way to keep in touch with these sixties acts. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've seen Peter Noone (Herman) in concert twice within the last 10 years at Draper Park about five minutes away from my home. Both times he mentioned the Draper Temple up on the mountain  to the northeast. He can really connect with an audience. 

The first occasion, he joked about Ebenezer Brown being the ancestor of Mrs. Brown in his song. I was probably one of a minority there who realized Ebenezer Brown was a Mormon pioneer who founded the city of Draper. 

The man must research each venue before he plays there. 

Edited to add: 

Paul Revere died last year, but Mark Lindsay, the lead singer, is still doing oldies concerts. 

Tip: YouTube is a great way to keep in touch with these sixties acts. 

Thanks for the info,  I didn't know that Paul Revere passed away.  Interesting about Peter..that he would take the time to know so much about the place of a concert.  Since last night, I have also thought about the Association, the Everlly Brothers and many more.  Thanks for letting me know you can get a lot on youtube.