sdc999 Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 9 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: I don't know about you, but knowing how I think and feel now, if I were to ever lose my testimony and leave the Church, I would hope those who love me who still remain in the Chuch would feel angry at me for allowing myself to be overcome by the devil, just as my earthly father would feel angry at me if I ever turneded on and abandoned my family. Thinking and feeling as I do now, I would rather that those who love me feel angry about me abandoning the Lord and his Church, and not just feel sorry for me. When I was growing up there were many times when I caused my dad and mom to be angry with me, and it was often those very times when my parents were angriest with me that I came to realize just how much they really did love me. If my parents just felt sorry for me, and didn't care enough do be angry and bitterly disappointed in me, it's unlikely I ever would have realized I how much I needed to repent and turn my life to the better. I wonder if you're aware of the fact that even the perfectly loving God gets angry with his children, and that that righteous anger (remember there is righteous and evil anger and they are both quite different) is proof of just how much God loves his children. But those who are spiritually immature, and always looking with an eagle's eye for fault in the Church leaders, will never be able to "get it" because they don't want to get it. P.S. Do yourself a favor and look up in the scriptures just how many times God is angry with his children in the scriptures, and how that anger is proof of his undying love. But you are still in the mindset that the LDS church is God's church and the only way. Those that have left and STILL have a testimony of Christ do not see it as abandoning their Savior. As for your parents feeling angry, I am a parent and have been angry with my children at times. The difference was that I never quit talking to them or shunned them as a result. As was the case with my family and with many others when we left the church. The church says it does not shun people but I can guarantee you that the people IN the church shun those who leave. Your statements indicate that anything outside of the lds church is outer darkness. I will say that it is not. I do still have a firm testimony of Christ as does my family. I do not feel that God is angry at me for being inside a Methodist church worshipping Him this morning. 1
Jeanne Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 Just now, Russell C McGregor said: But remember that it's Mormons who think they are superior to everyone else, right? Truthfully Russell, I did. When I was an active girl growing up, I felt bad for all those people who didn't have the true gospel. I must have been extremely valiant in the spirit world before I came. I was so much better than the rest..it was sad.
Russell C McGregor Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 5 hours ago, JulieM said: No, that's not obvious at all. But you of course are entitled to your opinion. Well, it's obvious to me. But then, I am not participating in the Resentment Culture and working really hard to find something to be offended about. 5 hours ago, JulieM said: When is joking about, labeling and laughing at people who are struggling "speaking in a spirit of love and genuine concern"? Whom did Elder Holland "label?" I see no labels.
Russell C McGregor Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: Truthfully Russell, I did. When I was an active girl growing up, I felt bad for all those people who didn't have the true gospel. I must have been extremely valiant in the spirit world before I came. I was so much better than the rest..it was sad. And now you think you are so much better than those who stay. So what's changed, really?
Popular Post Jeanne Posted May 1, 2016 Popular Post Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: And now you think you are so much better than those who stay. So what's changed, really? I don't think I am better..and you don't know me! I feel they are being treating unfairly and I have much love and compassion for anyone who goes through these different stages in the church. Your arrogance speaks for itself. Edited May 1, 2016 by Jeanne 5
JulieM Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: There you go again, isolating that passage out of the context of the entire address. If one takes that remark in context, it's obvious he is speaking in a spirit of love and genuine concern. I'm still waiting for that quote, Bobbieaware. The one where Elder Holland expressed "a spirit of love and concern" for those who have left the church (from this same talk). Thanks. (Since you believe the quoted remark was taken out of context from the rest of his talk.) Edited May 1, 2016 by JulieM 1
sdc999 Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 16 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Truthfully Russell, I did. When I was an active girl growing up, I felt bad for all those people who didn't have the true gospel. I must have been extremely valiant in the spirit world before I came. I was so much better than the rest..it was sad. Reminds me of the times when it was said to the teenage boys, 'you have more power in your little pinky finger than any adult man has outside of this church because you hold the priesthood'. You think that doesn't give a young boy a superiority complex? 1
Storm Rider Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 27 minutes ago, sdc999 said: Reminds me of the times when it was said to the teenage boys, 'you have more power in your little pinky finger than any adult man has outside of this church because you hold the priesthood'. You think that doesn't give a young boy a superiority complex? and what is the worth of the priesthood? How should it be valued? It is clear that the early apostles valued it greatly and would not ordain just anyone. It could not be bought or sold. What is its worth?
Jeanne Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 49 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: And now you think you are so much better than those who stay. So what's changed, really? By the way Mods..I don't get it. The snarky and pointed remarks from Russell remain and consig can't even get an "up" posted. What's the deal? 3
Teancum Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 9 hours ago, rockpond said: I understand the way you feel. And you can add your statement here to the list of reasons that CB and other LGBT persons feel hostility from the church. But come on Rock. It's all their fault. The LDS Church does not and cannot do wrong in the eyes of the True Believers like Russell, Scott and others. Look I know the church was not going to back peddle on homosexual relations being a sin. But the recent November 2015 policy was a double down. Those who argue it was not and that it was not an extra in the face hostile affront to homosexual Latter-day Saints-And yes Russell and Elder Bednar there are homosexual Latter-day Saints just as there are heterosexual Latter Day-Saints- are simply wrong and can't admit the LDS church had done wrong things in the past. Why try to discuss such things with them? Rational discussion is not possible with those who think they know they have the ultimate truth. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: I don't think I am better..and you don't know me! No, I just know what you write: Quote ..People who leave or struggle are some of the best people you never knew. 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: I feel they are being treating unfairly and I have much love and compassion for anyone who goes through these different stages in the church. Your arrogance speaks for itself. Why, thank you very much.
Russell C McGregor Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: By the way Mods..I don't get it. The snarky and pointed remarks from Russell remain and consig can't even get an "up" posted. What's the deal? In case you really don't get it, Russell's "snarky and pointed remarks" are about the nasty anti-Mormon stereotype of Mormons thinking themselves better than others. If you really used to think yourself better than others because you were a Mormon, and now you think it was "sad" to think that way, doesn't that mean that you really are better than those who still think that?
Jeanne Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Russell C McGregor said: In case you really don't get it, Russell's "snarky and pointed remarks" are about the nasty anti-Mormon stereotype of Mormons thinking themselves better than others. If you really used to think yourself better than others because you were a Mormon, and now you think it was "sad" to think that way, doesn't that mean that you really are better than those who still think that? Not at all..I have learned so much about real love and caring stepping outside that mormon box. I have been on both sides and have seen the best and worse of both sides. I don't want to be better than..I want to be a better me. 1
SteveO Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 I think I understand where Holland comes from. You only needed to read the comments from some members of the church on social media to get an idea of the kind of person Holland had in mind when he made these remarks. I think I get irritated when I hear people express their doubts as if theirs is a "special" case, or like they're the first ones to ever have them. I get the impression from some posters here that they think faithful members of the church are only such because they've never had to confront their own heart wrenching journey of doubt... July 14, 1943: “No peace had yet come, though I had prayed for it almost unceasingly. … I turned toward the hills. I had no objective. I wanted only to be alone. I had begun a fast. … “My weakness overcame me again. Hot tears came flooding down my cheeks as I made no effort to mop them up. I was accusing myself, and condemning myself and upbraiding myself. I was praying aloud for special blessings from the Lord. I was telling Him that I had not asked for this position, that I was incapable of doing the work, that I was imperfect and weak and human, that I was unworthy of so noble a calling, though I had tried hard and my heart had been right. I knew that I must have been at least partly responsible for offenses and misunderstandings which a few people fancied they had suffered at my hands. I realized that I had been petty and small many times. I did not spare myself. A thousand things passed through my mind. Was I called by revelation? … “If I could only have the assurance that my call had been inspired most of my other worries would be dissipated. … I knew that I must have His acceptance before I could go on. I stumbled up the hill and onto the mountain, as the way became rough. I faltered some as the way became steep. No paths were there to follow; I climbed on and on. Never had I prayed before as I now prayed. What I wanted and felt I must have was an assurance that I was acceptable to the Lord. I told Him that I neither wanted nor was worthy of a vision or appearance of angels or any special manifestation. I wanted only the calm peaceful assurance that my offering was accepted. Never before had I been tortured as I was now being tortured. And the assurance did not come. … “I mentally beat myself and chastised myself and accused myself. As the sun came up and moved in the sky I moved with it, lying in the sun, and still I received no relief. I sat up on the cliff and strange thoughts came to me: all this anguish and suffering could be ended so easily from this high cliff and then came to my mind the temptations of the Master when he was tempted to cast Himself down—then I was ashamed for having placed myself in a comparable position and trying to be dramatic. … I was filled with remorse because I had permitted myself to place myself … in a position comparable, in a small degree, to the position the Saviour found Himself in when He was tempted, and … I felt I had cheapened the experiences of the Lord, having compared mine with His. Again I challenged myself and told myself that I was only trying to be dramatic and sorry for myself. “… I lay on the cool earth. The thought came that I might take cold, but what did it matter now. There was one great desire, to get a testimony of my calling, to know that it was not human and inspired by ulterior motives, kindly as they might be. How I prayed! how I suffered! How I wept! How I struggled!” (Edward L. Kimball and Andrew E. Kimball, Jr., Spencer W. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, Inc., 1977, pp. 192–95.) 3
mtomm Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: I don't know about you, but knowing how I think and feel now, if I were to ever lose my testimony and leave the Church, I would hope those who love me who still remain in the Chuch would feel angry at me for allowing myself to be overcome by the devil, just as my earthly father would feel angry at me if I ever turneded on and abandoned my family. Thinking and feeling as I do now, I would rather that those who love me feel angry about me abandoning the Lord and his Church, and not just feel sorry for me. When I was growing up there were many times when I caused my dad and mom to be angry with me, and it was often those very times when my parents were angriest with me that I came to realize just how much they really did love me. If my parents just felt sorry for me, and didn't care enough do be angry and bitterly disappointed in me, it's unlikely I ever would have realized I how much I needed to repent and turn my life to the better. I wonder if you're aware of the fact that even the perfectly loving God gets angry with his children, and that that righteous anger (remember there is righteous and evil anger and they are both quite different) is proof of just how much God loves his children. But those who are spiritually immature, and always looking with an eagle's eye for fault in the Church leaders, will never be able to "get it" because they don't want to get it. P.S. Do yourself a favor and look up in the scriptures just how many times God is angry with his children in the scriptures, and how that anger is proof of his undying love. I guess I missed the part where Elder Holland is God the Father. Funny how us LDS are always confusing that. 2
Russell C McGregor Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 44 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Not at all..I have learned so much about real love and caring stepping outside that mormon box. I have been on both sides and have seen the best and worse of both sides. I don't want to be better than..I want to be a better me. And there's nothing superior or condescending about "that mormon box," is there? Ah, the poor benighted souls who can't see outside of it!
Russell C McGregor Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 6 hours ago, sdc999 said: Reminds me of the times when it was said to the teenage boys, 'you have more power in your little pinky finger than any adult man has outside of this church because you hold the priesthood'. You think that doesn't give a young boy a superiority complex? Well, fortunately you don't believe that any more. Doesn't that make you so much better than them? Poster suspended this time
Jeanne Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 9 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: And there's nothing superior or condescending about "that mormon box," is there? Ah, the poor benighted souls who can't see outside of it! I am done with you Russell..you won't let up or let go. It is just goading..not a discussion anymore. A part of me is still in that box of four walls. All I did was add some windows. I think the Lord understands more than you do.
sdc999 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: 2 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: 8 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: And there's nothing superior or condescending about "that mormon box," is there? Ah, the poor benighted souls who can't see outside of it! No, I don't see it. There are Mormon boxes. There are Methodist boxes. There are Baptist boxes. Hate to break it to you Russell but the LDS do not hold the patent on boxes. All religions have them to some degree. Yes, I would say the Mormons are a little more boxed in when kids are brought up from an early age to think they are the 'only true church'. Boxes create a superiority complex within any religion. The stronger the box and it's perimeters, the stronger the complex. 2
Thinking Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 I used to like Elder Holland. He was the president at BYU when I was there and when he would walk across the campus he would greet the students like he knew them. He said "Hi, how are you?" to me several times. He had no idea who I was but I felt like he cared. Now he seems to be bitter in his rants about those who have chosen to leave the Church.
sdc999 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 53 minutes ago, mtomm said: I guess I missed the part where Elder Holland is God the Father. Funny how us LDS are always confusing that. 'He sure was an amazing speaker' : Wow, he sure is a prophet of God 'Well, that talk didn't go over so well' : MAN, MAN.... He was speaking as a man! 2
bluebell Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Thinking said: I used to like Elder Holland. He was the president at BYU when I was there and when he would walk across the campus he would greet the students like he knew them. He said "Hi, how are you?" to me several times. He had no idea who I was but I felt like he cared. Now he seems to be bitter in his rants about those who have chosen to leave the Church. Besides this example, what other "rants" are you referring to?
sdc999 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 29 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Well, fortunately you don't believe that any more. Doesn't that make you so much better than them? better than them? No, I'm no better than anyone else. More capable than them? Yes, I believe so. We had a high priest in our ward use his priesthood to give a blessing to a pregnant woman and assure her everything was going to be okay during home delivery complications. Home delivery with midwife didn't go so well. Dead baby. So yes, without the priesthood, I thought they were crazy for the midwife idea and would have had capable doctors handling the situation. Baby would be alive. Sometimes that priesthood can get in the way of rational thinking.
Storm Rider Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 34 minutes ago, Thinking said: I used to like Elder Holland. He was the president at BYU when I was there and when he would walk across the campus he would greet the students like he knew them. He said "Hi, how are you?" to me several times. He had no idea who I was but I felt like he cared. Now he seems to be bitter in his rants about those who have chosen to leave the Church. I think you are so focused on a few statements that you dismiss the rest of the man. You have set a standard of judgement so high that I expect no one would meet your vaunted heights of whatever it is that you think or feel is the opposite of bitter. It is a strange thing with standards we set up to judge others; that is the standard that we will be judged. Before going down this path of judgement I encourage you to look at the whole individual. Personally, I don't know the man and I have never met him in a private circumstance. Regardless, I have heard him speak countless times and your perception has little to do with the individual I have listened to. I also can be rather hard on the leaders of the church. Not fond of President Monson at all and never have liked him. It is just me, but others seem to really like him. There are certainly those that I have preferred and enjoy much more than others. Yet, I have never felt that one of them was "bitter in his rants". This sounds more a statement made in ignorance rather than any knowledge of these individuals. That standard will be a vicious beast that you will contend with one day. Be careful.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 18 hours ago, salgare said: It's been rumored this was simply political maneuvering where the Church was politically "meeting in the middle" to obtain their desire for a given legislative outcome. But of course, Jesus, likely led them to do this based on their great compassion for those afflicted. Who was it that picked up the award in association with this and the church helping the homeless and cast out gays by donating 2k worth of Bishops storehouse goods? Yes Jesus was generous that day! woops, I retract, it was 2.5k http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mormons-pride-idUSKCN0PC2RU20150702 So, of course, anything positive which the LDS Church does must be interpreted as merely another cynical Machiavellian move to obtain media points? Damned if they don't, and damned if they do. Nice.
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