BYU comm speech "disconnect from those who have lost their faith"

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

In fact this thread is a good representation of the muck that needs to be shoveled

A distorted and crafted quote out of context leads to a big fuss with no one actually reading the words spoken.  More muck.

I need a scriptural shower.

Listen to the talk, I heard it differently than when I read it.  He was speaking about people like myself.  Let me reiterate...the underlined portions.

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

People may pick out just those I underlined and put me with the rest.  

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Tacenda

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Listen to the talk, I heard it differently than when I read it.  He was speaking about people like myself.  Let me reiterate...the underlined portions.

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

People may pick out just those I underlined and put me with the rest.  

 

Okay, I can see some problems here, given the larger context of the quote. 

[hope_for_things]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Listen to the talk, I heard it differently than when I read it.  He was speaking about people like myself.  Let me reiterate...the underlined portions.

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

People may pick out just those I underlined and put me with the rest.  

 

Yikes, that's even worse than I thought with the quotes in the article I read.  Clayton sounds like he's totally out of touch with many other statements coming from the leadership, Ballard's CES talk as an example.  That's why I wondered if this talk had to go through correlation, I'm guessing not.  So glad Clayton was never made an Apostle, what a piece of work this guy is! 

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

Because they have not yet learned to rely and trust the Spirit to answer the questions that matter.

The LDS Church advocates relying on the Spirit only to the extent that the Spirit confirms the truth of what Church leaders say.

 

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

If you read the actual quote, it's easy to see that he wasn't proposing anything sinister or scary, but instead just good common sense.

After all, who isn't better off for "disconnecting" from people who disagree with us about something and would try to use logic or persuasion to change our minds? 

As a big fan of Windows OS, isn't it common sense for me to "disconnect" from my (former) friends who hated Windows and would try to tell me how Macs are better?  As a conservative, why wouldn't I "disconnect" from my former liberal friends who would often try to show me why their political positions were preferable?  After all, if I continued to engage (or tolerate) them there is a very real chance that I might start to think like them.   As someone who doesn't believe moon landing was real, I've found much peace of mind ever since I stopped hanging out with people who would insist (sometimes using convincing arguments and evidences) otherwise.

In all these cases, and countless others, the Mac-drone, liberal, NASA-loving-sycophants would see my willingness to engage with them as a sign of weakness and malleability.  Surely, the best way to show them the strength and superiority of my position is to cut off communication.  Sometimes the best defense is to not play the game.

There are plenty of battles between those who believe in the Restored Gospel and those who have lost faith in it right on this board. It would be very interesting indeed to know if there has ever been at least one person who lost faith in the Restored Gospel who's faith and testimony in the LDS Church were restored as a direct consequence of engaging with the defenders of the faith who participate on this board. 

By the way, I don't know if you're aware of it but the scriptures are full of warnings that the saints should not have fellowship with those who have been overcome by the devil. What Elder Clayton said in his address in nothing new. For example, you surely remember the adversary and his followers were cast out of heaven. And even though those sons of perdition now reside on this earth, we are most solemnly warned to have nothing whatsoever to do with them.

And as I've been saying all along, there is nothing wrong and everything right with trying to help those who have lost their faith regain their testimonies. And I must say that based on his other writings, it's quite obvious Elder Clayton believes the same thing. But those individuals who have gone over to the dark side, and have no real desire to do anything but argue and "prove" that they are right to have left the Church, are better left to their own devices. But as long as there is some residual sincerity, there is nothing wrong and everything right with trying to help those who have lost their faith regain that which they have lost.

Over the years, I have helped several people who were struggling in the faith, but if I ever discerned an individual devolved into an anti-Mormon sign-seeker, I bid them adieu. Remember, the spirit of contention is of the devil and the Lord has commanded his people to disengage from those who are itching for a fight. But if genuine humility and a spirit of mutual respect and good-will  supplant the spirit of contention, reengagement can begin.

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, Gray said:

Okay, I can see some problems here, given the larger context of the quote. 

Smac97 actually quoted the entire quote in context, but I didn't see it at first.  

[consiglieri]

7 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Yikes, that's even worse than I thought with the quotes in the article I read.  Clayton sounds like he's totally out of touch with many other statements coming from the leadership, Ballard's CES talk as an example.  That's why I wondered if this talk had to go through correlation, I'm guessing not.  So glad Clayton was never made an Apostle, what a piece of work this guy is! 

The only thing that makes this address about disconnecting from people with different religious views is that it is being given to a class of college graduates.

It seems clear this is in response to the many young adults becoming disaffected, and the role the Internet is playing in that disaffection.

It is also reflective of the amount of faith Church leaders have in the intelligence of Mormons graduating from the Church's own flagship university.

 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The LDS Church advocates relying on the Spirit only to the extent that the Spirit confirms the truth of what Church leaders say.

 

Come on, seriously, what else could the Spirit confirm?  there is only stuff coming from Church leaders, consiglieri.

Or we could actually live with the notion that truth and goodness can come from anywhere, we just need to be ready to accept it.  Sadly, we're more ready to condemn someone for not reading the BOM every single day, like some caricaturized Pharisee, than we are ready to embrace the goodness of truths found among others.  Or so I fear.

[juliann]

13 minutes ago, Gray said:

Okay, I can see some problems here, given the larger context of the quote. 

I don't given his audience. It is quite appropriate given the climate of today. The recent excommunication is proof enough of what those he speaks of are trying to do. He is giving good advice in every situation, not just religious. At some point the only choice left is to stop listening to the negativity no matter who it comes from or what it is about. I stopped listening to cable news for this very reason and my life is so much more peaceful.

The choice goes both ways, those that don't like our religious leaders' words can also choose to stop listening. It is good advice all the way around.

[consiglieri]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Come on, seriously, what else could the Spirit confirm?  there is only stuff coming from Church leaders, consiglieri.

Or we could actually live with the notion that truth and goodness can come from anywhere, we just need to be ready to accept it.  Sadly, we're more ready to condemn someone for not reading the BOM every single day, like some caricaturized Pharisee, than we are ready to embrace the goodness of truths found among others.  Or so I fear.

The Spirit confirmed to me that the new policy as it relates to children is not of God.

Under such circumstances, should I follow Church leaders or should I follow God?

Didn't Peter ask a similar question of religious leaders in the New Testament . . . ?

 

 

[Atheist Mormon]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

You shouldn't put words in quotes if they aren't actually a quote. 

It doesn't appear that Elder Clayton said to disconnect from people who lose faith. He said not to listen to their proselytizing efforts. 

Those are two very different things. 

How is that I am doing this? I repeat the same things he said " We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith,  

 

 

[Storm Rider]

4 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The only thing that makes this address about disconnecting from people with different religious views is that it is being given to a class of college graduates.

It seems clear this is in response to the many young adults becoming disaffected, and the role the Internet is playing in that disaffection.

It is also reflective of the amount of faith Church leaders have in the intelligence of Mormons graduating from the Church's own flagship university.

 

Oh, God in Heaven, please give it a rest.  Do you ever stop with the creating a soundbite to fit your own agenda?  No one in their right mind can get to your point without re-writing the talk by ripping everything out of context and then writing it to say something that you want it to say.  Regardless, it would not be the talk that was given.  

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Because they have not yet learned to rely and trust the Spirit to answer the questions that matter.

Of course, blame the individual.  Well, I relied on the Spirit and still rely on the Spirit.  Many of those sources criticized here, introduced me to truth long before the Church decided to begin being transparent.

 

[Storm Rider]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Come on, seriously, what else could the Spirit confirm?  there is only stuff coming from Church leaders, consiglieri.

Or we could actually live with the notion that truth and goodness can come from anywhere, we just need to be ready to accept it.  Sadly, we're more ready to condemn someone for not reading the BOM every single day, like some caricaturized Pharisee, than we are ready to embrace the goodness of truths found among others.  Or so I fear.

That would be just your own fears that are not based on reality.  I am pretty normal for a LDS outside of Utah (), and I take Brigham Young's comments, the Book of Mormon's counsel, and several other prophets to study out of the best books and take the truths found there regardless of where it is found.  Appreciate the many truths God has given to all of his children.  

You gotta get out more.  You are breathing your own ether far too much for your own good. 

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Mars said:

 

a. because i'm convinced that faith can be destroyed.  it can be destroyed by lie and half baked info.  i don't understand you - are you saying that faith can't be destroyed by an outsider?  i suppose that ultimately it's up to us to make that decision, but tons of people make foolish decisions with half baked information all the time...  you might need to clarify this one for me because i'm not sure i get where you're coming from.

b. i can't emphasize this enough: there is a difference between someone who talks to me about my faith in, well...  (dept of redundancy dept, please take a seat and sit down) good faith and someone who does not display good faith.  i've talked with atheists who respect mormon belief and wouldn't call it a racist church, but would agree that there are racist elements in our church history and people.  and then i've had people laugh in my face that i'd belong to a racist church who hates black people.  the former, i will talk to all day.  the latter get none of my time.  your mileage my vary.

 

Okay, so I get that certain people of the most virulent personality can be exhausting and can even plant doubt in the minds of others; especially when that's their goal.  I agree that such people should be avoided, if for no other reason than they aren't healthy to be around at all, let alone from a spiritual standpoint.  But, I can't say I recall ever entertaining the idea that some individual would be able to destroy faith simply by virtue of their words. 

I, too, have dealt with some pretty nasty anti-LDS folks in the past having served my mission in the Southern U.S., and having grown up just down the street from the (so-called) Concerned Christians.  Most of the time, I've walked away from those people because it's mostly a waste of time, not because I was afraid of some harm they might do to my testimony.  I just found their proselytizing to be pointless.

But, I've never thought of having some blanket notion that all people should be evaluated for their potential to harm me spiritually.  That thought is just completely foreign to me.  I just don't believe others have that power over me.

That being said, do I believe someone's faith be damaged by outside events which cast doubt on certain foundational theological elements.  Absolutely.  In fact, I would say that many of the discussion playing out on this very board regarding the age-old problem of evil are actually in that arena.  But, I see the internal struggle with reconciling doctrinal and theological elements to the world around us to be very different than interacting with someone who disagrees with the Church's doctrines/policies/etc.; even when they vocal and passionate about it.  Maybe I'm jaded and just don't trust anyone else to tell me how to think.  Maybe I'm naive and being mind-controlled right now.  Or, maybe, I'm just plain wrong.  I don't know; but it just struck me that there is an underlying assumption in this entire conversation (not just you) that others can harm us (as if firing a gun when we have no defense) without us having an ability to process their words critically.

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh, God in Heaven, please give it a rest.  Do you ever stop with the creating a soundbite to fit your own agenda?  No one in their right mind can get to your point without re-writing the talk by ripping everything out of context and then writing it to say something that you want it to say.  Regardless, it would not be the talk that was given.  

 

There is little to no faith by Church leaders that these graduates of BYU are capable of dealing with contradicting viewpoints.  That says something.

Elder Clayton wants these college graduates to stay uninformed about challenging issues relating to Mormonism.

The LDS Church tried for decades to hide challenging aspects of church history from its members.

Now the Internet has made that information widely accessible.

And so the LDS Church was dragged kicking and screaming to the transparency table and published the anonymous essays on its own website.  The purpose of the essays is to try to control the damaging information the LDS Church cannot successfully suppress anymore.

And here comes Elder Clayton saying, in effect, that since the LDS Church can't control the challenging truths about Mormonism on the Internet, the BYU graduates need to not only "disconnect" from such Internet sites, but also from anybody familiar with such sites.

To the outside world, the LDS Church appears increasingly desperate.

 

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Listen to the talk, I heard it differently than when I read it.  He was speaking about people like myself.  Let me reiterate...the underlined portions.

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

People may pick out just those I underlined and put me with the rest.  

 

People "MAY" do anything.  Who cares?  He is not recommending that at all.  I could decide I don't like you because your avatar irritates me (it doesn't!)

Same passage with MY emphasis:

Quote

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

You do not:

1- mock the church 2-or leaders 3-or history

You have questions.  Good for you, we all do.

You do not:

4- "promote yourself as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naivete" or

5- proselytize for others to lose their faith

In fact, you have a humble attitude and ask sincere questions.  Anyone who equates you with those about whom Elder C is talking need to have their head examined.

[hope_for_things]

14 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The only thing that makes this address about disconnecting from people with different religious views is that it is being given to a class of college graduates.

It seems clear this is in response to the many young adults becoming disaffected, and the role the Internet is playing in that disaffection.

It is also reflective of the amount of faith Church leaders have in the intelligence of Mormons graduating from the Church's own flagship university.

Clayton sounds paranoid in this talk.  Definitely talking down to the students.  Also, what about the advice to not connect to your Ex on social media and to avoid Porn.  The content of this talk was more appropriate for young adults, not college grads.  And his fear mongering about disaffected members is silly.  

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The LDS Church advocates relying on the Spirit only to the extent that the Spirit confirms the truth of what Church leaders say.

 

I would like a quote that says that, to only listen to the spirit if it confirms the truth of the church, otherwise not listen to the spirit.

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, juliann said:

I don't given his audience. It is quite appropriate given the climate of today. The recent excommunication is proof enough of what those he speaks of are trying to do. He is giving good advice in every situation, not just religious. At some point the only choice left is to stop listening to the negativity no matter who it comes from or what it is about. I stopped listening to cable news for this very reason and my life is so much more peaceful.

The choice goes both ways, those that don't like our religious leaders' words can also choose to stop listening. It is good advice all the way around.

Well, my concern was more with how he characterizes people who have lost their faith. 

 

Quote

This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history.

 

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The Spirit confirmed to me that the new policy as it relates to children is not of God.

Under such circumstances, should I follow Church leaders or should I follow God?

Didn't Peter ask a similar question of religious leaders in the New Testament . . . ?

 

 

Always follow your testimony.  You have no choice, really, either way it is blind obedience and I would rather be blindly obedient to my own gut than anyone else's.  At least I can ask it questions.

[consiglieri]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Clayton sounds paranoid in this talk.  Definitely talking down to the students.  Also, what about the advice to not connect to your Ex on social media and to avoid Porn.  The content of this talk was more appropriate for young adults, not college grads.  And his fear mongering about disaffected members is silly.  

Yes, he does sound paranoid.

But we must remember that his fears are coming from somewhere.

And the people he is addressing (i.e., young adult BYU college grads) and the ways he is advising to avoid the danger (disconnecting from non-correlated Mormon Internet sites and those who post there) are suggestive as to who Elder Clayton believes are in peril of becoming disaffected and how.

To put a fine point on it, Elder Clayton is concerned that large numbers of young adults (including college graduates and, among them, returned missionaries) are becoming increasingly disaffected from the LDS Church through frequenting non-correlated Internet sites relating to Mormonism, and speaking with those who do.

One would expect his fears are not without some basis.

[consiglieri]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Always follow your testimony.  You have no choice, really, either way it is blind obedience and I would rather be blindly obedient to my own gut than anyone else's.  At least I can ask it questions.

I would rather be "blindly obedient" to the Spirit of God that is in me than be "blindly obedient" to the Spirit of God that LDS Church leaders tell me is in them.

[Atheist Mormon]

37 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The LDS Church advocates relying on the Spirit only to the extent that the Spirit confirms the truth of what Church leaders say.

 

This "Spirit" thing was always a problem for me, I could never feel it, I could never touch it. The main reason for it was because I always was privileged to have a healthy brain, which (as a matter of fact) does not need a spirit to function.

Even if we were to assume that Spirit is a separate entity, it will not be able to communicate with a dead brain, what I want to convey is, there's no such ab universal Spirit guides us like a herd...We are individuals over 90% of time I can barely read my wife or kids what they want.........

But of course self-Reliance is not something Christianity in general endorses.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Listen to the talk, I heard it differently than when I read it.  He was speaking about people like myself.  Let me reiterate...the underlined portions.

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

People may pick out just those I underlined and put me with the rest.  

 

You've been a great friend Tacenda...I will miss you in my life.  But mfb is right.  You are a sincere questioner.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Jeanne