BYU comm speech "disconnect from those who have lost their faith"

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

I did not say that such scenarios do not exist.  Of course they do.

Rather, I was disputing the false claim that Elder Clayton was speaking of "these scenarios," or that that "these scenarios" and "listening-to-aggressively-proselytizing-apostates" are are "all the same."

Elder Clayton was cautioning against the former, not the latter.  It is a flagrant falsehood to suggest otherwise.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank you for your reply.  Perhaps if Elder Clayton had clarified a little more.  It is hard to discern is some ways.  I am glad you recognize the existence of such scenarios. 

[Bobbieaware]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I read it.  I think it's a noble effort to defend.  But that doesn't change my mind.  The point raised by Elder Clayton is problematic and more levels than I can count.  I'm glad you see it differently than the message instructs.  But given Smac's post it still does not mention humble non-believers.  It's more like he's trying to say such do not exist at all.  he should have been, at least, more careful to spell that out.  Either way, I stick by my first comment in this thread--this is far more pharisaic sounding than I'm comfortable with. 

It's obvious Elder Clayton was referring only to those members who lose faith and then, like Korihor, become "evangelizing" anti-Mormon zealots. To imagine that in Elder Clayton's mind every member who loses faith is like Koirhor is absurd. I will guarantee you that throughout the many years of his varied service in the Church, Elder Clayton often encouraged those with strong faith to engage with and strengthen those who are week and wavering in faith. But I'll bet that even if scores of such quotes could be presented to you that you would still refuse to give the man the benefit of the doubt. Wanting to believe something is true is always a great obstacle to being able to learn what really is true.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

20 Years ago I went on a mission surrounded by evangelical arguments.  Since that time I've spent a great deal of my free time engaging evangelical arguments.  In college I befriended a stout evangelical, the two of us forming a book club of sorts, sharing different books from each other's perspectives.  I've read a ton of evangelical works thanks to her direction and suggestion, and many more since then. 

 

But his point has nothing to do with the evangelical crew of Christians.  His point is talking about those who have walked away from the LDS Church, which granted, may include some evangelicals but by and large would not.   

I did mean evangelical in terms of motive, not sect, wherein "evangelizing atheism" or "veganism" would be included.

[ERMD]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Elder Clayton doesn't seem to really know what's going on IMO.  

I have sat in meetings with Elder Clayton.  I can say that he most assuredly knows what is going on.

[smac97]

On 4/25/2016 at 9:28 AM, stemelbow said:

I read it.  I think it's a noble effort to defend.  But that doesn't change my mind.  The point raised by Elder Clayton is problematic and more levels than I can count.  I'm glad you see it differently than the message instructs. But given Smac's post it still does not mention humble non-believers. 

Elder Clayton was not speaking of "humble non-believers."  So you are faulting Elder Clayton for . . . something he did not say?

Quote

It's more like he's trying to say such do not exist at all. 

It's "like" that?  Where?  CFR, please, for which portion of Elder Clayton's remarks can be construed in such a way that he is denying the existence of "humble non-believers."  I'm all ears.

Quote

he should have been, at least, more careful to spell that out. 

With respect, I disagree.  I think he was quite clear in his remarks.  

Quote

Either way, I stick by my first comment in this thread--this is far more pharisaic sounding than I'm comfortable with. 

So encouraging the Saints to listen to the Spirit rather than to aggressively-proselytizing apostates is "pharisaic?"  I guess reasonable minds will have to disagree about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by smac97

[Abulafia]

My edits...."The faithful often promote themselves as the wise, who can rescue the rest of us from our naivete," Clayton said. "We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have faith in Mormonism, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit."

 

There. That's about as mean spirited and divisive. I don't agree of course with either perspective.  I respect my LDS friends, I respect their faith and testimony.  

No one is faithless.  We all have faith in something upon which we can find common ground.  The golden rule for instance transcends any belief boundaries.  I have a different faith to many of my lds friends and I am saddened by Clayton's narrative here.  It smacks of fear and weakness, not strength.

[Bobbieaware]

I just performed a quick search and found several quotes from Elder Clayton's General Conferences addresses, wherein he lovingly encourages those who have lost their faith, and can no longer perceive any spiritual light, to hang on and continue to try to believe, even if they can only muster a hope to believe. I have cut one of those quotes of loving encouragement that I might post it here to clear Elder Clayton. But rather than paste his words of compassion and understanding to those struggling with shaken faith, I'll allow the naysayers to perform their own searches just in case they're in no mood to be publicly proven to be hasty, rash and unfair.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[stemelbow]

40 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

It's obvious Elder Clayton was referring only to those members who lose faith and then, like Korihor, become "evangelizing" anti-Mormon zealots. To imagine that in Elder Clayton's mind every member who loses faith is like Koirhor is absurd. I will guarantee you that throughout the many years of his varied service in the Church, Elder Clayton often encouraged those with strong faith to engage with and strengthen those who are week and wavering in faith. But I'll bet that even if scores of such quotes could be presented to you that you would still refuse to give the man the benefit of the doubt. Wanting to believe something is true is always a great obstacle to being able to learn what really is true.

Look.  I have nothing against him. I think what he said was poorly considered.  I don't think he's after anyone in particular.  I don't think he's trying to shut everyone out.  I do think he probably has a sour taste in his mouth about some people he knows and wants that sour taste to extend to others.  In that, I'd say that's where his words were poorly considered.  But in the end, I think we can all agree, that there are plenty of people who are no longer in the Church that are worth our time and effort to listen to and engage with.  I sincerely hope no one sees it differently, even if I'm worried some will.

[Bobbieaware]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Look.  I have nothing against him. I think what he said was poorly considered.  I don't think he's after anyone in particular.  I don't think he's trying to shut everyone out.  I do think he probably has a sour taste in his mouth about some people he knows and wants that sour taste to extend to others.  In that, I'd say that's where his words were poorly considered.  But in the end, I think we can all agree, that there are plenty of people who are no longer in the Church that are worth our time and effort to listen to and engage with.  I sincerely hope no one sees it differently, even if I'm worried some will.

Read the post just above yours.

[Abulafia]

Bobbieaware, to be honest, I think that Clayton's comments as addressed above are a case of *evil thinks as evil does*.  Mormonism is such a strong proselytising faith, that I think there might be a tendency to see everyone, even ex members in that light.  I have never looked on ex mormons as proselytising missionaries attempting to convert me, not even strong atheists or Jesus mythicists.  They have their opinions.  I can listen and appreciate what they are saying and why they are saying it.  There's no need to shut them down or refuse to discuss any issues with them.  

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I just performed a quick search and found several quotes from Elder Clayton's General Conferences addresses, wherein he lovingly encourages those who have lost their faith, and can no longer perceive any spiritual light, to hang on and continue to try to believe, even if they can only muster a hope to believe. I have cut one of those quotes of loving encouragement that I might post it here to clear Elder Clayton. But rather than paste his words of compassion and understanding to those with shaken faith, I'll allow the naysayers to perform their own searches just in case they're in no mood to be publicly proven to be hasty, rash and unfair.

Maybe his approach was too soft then, and now needed a little more sternness.  I'm thinking right now of Pres. Uchtdorf's changing talks in conference that seemed apparent to me. First, it's okay to doubt...then, to a "doubt your doubt" talk.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe his approach was too soft then, and now needed a little more sternness.  I'm thinking right now of Pres. Uchtdorf's changing talks in conference that seemed apparent to me. First, it's okay to doubt...then, to a "doubt your doubt" talk.

Yeah..it is hard to keep up. 

[stemelbow]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Elder Clayton was not speaking of "humble non-believers."  So you are faulting Elder Clayton for . . . something he did not say?

In a sense yes.  The problem comes when he categorizes people as faithless and starts to define them, even if he meant some, he ought to clarify that there are many in that group that do not fit his description. 

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It's "like" that?  Where?  CFR, please, for which portion of Elder Clayton's remarks can be construed in such a way that he is denying the existence of "humble non-believers."  I'm all ears.

He's defining a group of people and in so doing he doesn't clarify their diversity. 

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

With respect, I disagree.  I think he was quite clear in his remarks.  

So encouraging the Saints to listen to the Spirit rather than aggressively-proselytizing apostates is "pharisaic?"  I guess reasonable minds will have to disagree about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I'd say the Pharisaic part I get is the grouping of people, treating them as definable, projecting, creating dichotomy between people that should not and may not exist.  Stuff like that. 

[stemelbow]

11 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I just performed a quick search and found several quotes from Elder Clayton's General Conferences addresses, wherein he lovingly encourages those who have lost their faith, and can no longer perceive any spiritual light, to hang on and continue to try to believe, even if they can only muster a hope to believe. I have cut one of those quotes of loving encouragement that I might post it here to clear Elder Clayton. But rather than paste his words of compassion and understanding to those with shaken faith, I'll allow the naysayers to perform their own searches just in case they're in no mood to be publicly proven to be hasty, rash and unfair.

This isn't about him as a person, Bobbie. 

[stemelbow]

Probably even more concerning to me in all this is, the content doesn't seem to matter.  It's the people, the direction that the voice is coming from that is a problem.  You see, I've seen all too often when those who have left the faith, or might even still be in it, present ideas, concerns or arguments only to be dismissed categorically from members.  When if we were just more open and willing to listen.  Not so quick to get defensive and mean, which members tend to do way too quickly, we'd all be better off--mostly because the concerns, criticisms and ideas can often give us good ideas and better direction.  I'm concerned because I don't know what he means when he categorizes people as not worth our time.  Who in my life is so bad, that when we discuss religion or Church stuff I should shut them out?  No one.  not a one.  I hear ideas and let the ideas win out.  But it feels like he's not up for that at all.  It feels like, his point seems to be, that he doesn't trust us average members to be able to take the really pointed and difficult questions and concerns.  If we get backed into a corner and can't answer something that must mean it's coming from some rabid anti-Mormon.  I get my experience with people plays a big role in how ti comes off to me.  But, it's concerning. 

[rockpond]

I don't know who are what Elder Clayton had in mind when he made the statement to stop listening to their proselyting efforts.  But, I will say this... I didn't turn to sources outside of the church for answers UNTIL I realized that the Church sources weren't providing me with complete and honest answers.

It is time for all of us in the church, members and leaders alike, to be asking ourselves the question:  Why do members turn to google for answers?  Why do they turn on Mormon Stories?  Why would they read CES letter?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

That's great. I'm not sure you what you disagree with, though.  Are you saying we individually should not be able to decide for ourselves who in our lives we need to set limits with?  We should be told groups of people we should set limits with in spite of our own feelings and discernment.  Because if you do, then wowser, no wonder why we disagree as to the viability and credibility of Elder Clayton's talk. 

I disagree with the idea that there's ever a need to stay connected to the proselytizing of Korihor-type people (those who actively try to convince people that there is no Christ and there is no sin-the type of people that Elder Clayton specifically was speaking of).  

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I don't know who are what Elder Clayton had in mind when he made the statement to stop listening to their proselyting efforts.  But, I will say this... I didn't turn to sources outside of the church for answers UNTIL I realized that the Church sources weren't providing me with complete and honest answers.

It is time for all of us in the church, members and leaders alike, to be asking ourselves the question:  Why do members turn to google for answers?  Why do they turn on Mormon Stories?  Why would they read CES letter?

Members should never, have never, been discouraged from seeking information from all sources.  No one source is the fountain of all knowledge.  When anyone thinks that way, they get themselves in trouble.  Complete and honest answers are hard to find in any one source.  Not trying to defend the Church because it has been terrible in some instances of supplying good information and has been good at other times.  But so has every other source, to varying levels.

[Bobbieaware]

32 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

This isn't about him as a person, Bobbie. 

Elder Clayton's approach is no different than the great many other straight-forward warnings of the prophets found throughout the scriptures. Since the dawn of man, there have always been those who decry the prophets for their bluntness in declaring the truth because such people take the truth to be hard. The so-called loyal opposition has always been present in the Church of God in every dispensation. Why should anyone expect the Chuch of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times be any different? Because there must needs be opposition in all things, there will always be critics of the living prophets found in Church in every age. It's a tough and thankless job, but somebody's got to do it so that the great test of mortality can be thoroughly rigorous and complete.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[stemelbow]

Just now, bluebell said:

I disagree with the idea that there's ever a need to stay connected to the proselytizing of Korihor-type people (those who actively try to convince people that there is no Christ and there is no sin-the type of people that Elder Clayton specifically was speaking of).  

I get that you disagree with me on that.  To me that's one of the unfortunate things about Church.  We can learn from everyone or anyone.  I don't think God sees lines of in the Church and out quite like you do.  And that should be considered.  Besides, the description of Korihor is just a caricature of what the guy, if he existed, really was.  Everyone comes off worse if they have an enemy and we hear the description of said person from the enemy. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It is time for all of us in the church, members and leaders alike, to be asking ourselves the question:  Why do members turn to google for answers?  Why do they turn on Mormon Stories?  Why would they read CES letter?

I'm not speaking of your experience, but in general i think that a lot of times it's just a lot easier to google something than it is to study it out ourselves, pray about it, fast about it, take the questions to the temple if possible, etc.

It's like the difference between taking a diet pill and just eating healthier foods and exercising every day.  One almost always works to lose weight, yet more often than not people choose the other option because it offers the same benefits with much less of a personal cost.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Elder Clayton's approach is no different than the great many other straight-forward warnings of the prophets found throughout the scriptures. Since the dawn of man, there have always been those who decry the prophets for their bluntness in declaring the truth because such people take the truth to be hard. The so-called loyal opposition has always been present in the Church of God in every dispensation. Why should anyone expect the Chuch of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times be any different? Because there must needs be opposition in all things, there will always be critics of the living prophets found in every age of the Church. It's a tough and thankless jod, but somebody's got to do it so that the great test of mortality can be thoroughly rigorous and complete.

And in response I'd say if we can learn to treat everyone as being int his together (hey, we all agreed to come here together and therefore all have something in common), rather than treating people as enemies and our opposition (hey, that's the devil's job) needing to be discounted of worthy of us as people, we'd be better off. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I get that you disagree with me on that.  To me that's one of the unfortunate things about Church.  We can learn from everyone or anyone.  I don't think God sees lines of in the Church and out quite like you do.  And that should be considered.  Besides, the description of Korihor is just a caricature of what the guy, if he existed, really was.  Everyone comes off worse if they have an enemy and we hear the description of said person from the enemy. 

I've heard the 'we can all learn from satan.  He probably comes off worse than he really was' line of reasoning before, but I don't understand it.

[hope_for_things]

My first thought when reading the quotes from Elder Clayton's talk, is do the BYU graduation speeches get run through correlation before they are approved?  

[consiglieri]

Elder Clayton's remarks continue to portray the LDS Church as afraid to engage in any meaningful discussion regarding its truth claims.