Unrealistic generational gaps in the Book of Mormon?

[canard78]

The average generational gap is calculated as the age of the parent at the time of the child's birth. The gap between generations in the Book of Mormon seem improbable.

E.g.: John, Born 1900 > Rob (his son), Born 1930 > Tom (John's grandson), Born 1950
We now have two gaps and 50 years between grandfather and grandson. 50/2 gives a gap of 25 years.

The average generational gap ranges from 25-35 years.

The Book of Mormon has an average generational gap of 50-60. There are 18-19 generational gaps, depending on how you count them, spanning over 1000 years.

While a 50-60 year gap is technically possible, it's odd that there's such a high average over such a long time period. The cases of bigger gaps (50+) are usually an exception and only over a couple of generational gaps, not over 18 gaps.

Does FAIRMormon have anything on this? What are your thoughts?

It's a work in progress, but here's a list of approximate ages and generations. I'd welcome any builds or corrections:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ywWijQVtcdDI9-xlsJRCg8sPs9xb4nJ0Mvd5xrCYQPE/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: updated document and link so you can make comments directly on the document if you want

Edited April 18, 2016 by canard78

[stemelbow]

20 minutes ago, canard78 said:

The average generational gap is calculated as the age of the parent at the time of the child's birth. The gap between generations in the Book of Mormon seem improbable.

E.g.: John, Born 1900 > Rob (his son), Born 1930 > Tom (John's grandson), Born 1950
We now have two gaps and 50 years between grandfather and grandson. 50/2 gives a gap of 25 years.

The average generational gap ranges from 25-35 years.

The Book of Mormon has an average generational gap of 50-60. There are 18-19 generational gaps, depending on how you count them, spanning over 1000 years.

While a 50-60 year gap is technically possible, it's odd that there's such a high average over such a long time period. 

Does FAIR have anything on this?

Hey Canard, I wondered about this but haven't really put in the effort to figure it out.  Jacob for instance is the son of Lehi, but reading from him to Enos feels like it's more than 2 generations to me.  I was curious if you had any specific examples to discuss.  Any thoughts on the Jacob to Enos generations? 

So let's see, Sam, Laman, Lemuel, Nephi were all born before Lehi left Jerusalem.  Perhaps they left when Lehi was 50?  Nephi the youngest of the bunch might have been 16?  Years later Jacob and Joseph are born.  So maybe Jacob was 20-25 years younger than Nephi?  of course, if so, It would most likely have to be that Jacob and Joseph had a different mother than their older brothers.  Of course in Jacob's own book of scripture polygamy is condemned, so that seems unlikely.  So maybe Lehi was closer to 40 when they left Jerusalem.  Lehi dies when he's like 70, we'll say, and Nephi is like 46, Jacob being close to 26.  Nephi we'll say dies at 70 when Jacob is like 50.  I think it could work.  So I'm curious what other examples you have in mind.

Edited April 18, 2016 by stemelbow

[Storm Rider]

So I believe in a man that was the son the God; who lived and died 2000 years ago.  I believe he lived a perfect life was crucified and that he rose again from the grave.  I believe that he was born of the virgin, Mary.  I believe that God led the children of Israel out of Egypt after Moses performed many miracles that finally broke Pharaoh's will to the point he released their slaves.  I believe that the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith and through this young man restored the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.

You really think I am going to be concerned about a history where men were fathers over a long span of their years....on average?  Please tell me that you have something better to occupy your time in order to create doubt in those that have not felt the Holy Spirit as strongly as others.  How about that the vast majority of people have never seen God; or Jesus was a Jew and lived and died in a little, tiny, out of the way village in a desert land among a conquered people?  How about why did children of Reuben call the alter Ed?  

[canard78]

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Hey Canard, I wondered about this but haven't really put in the effort to figure it out.  Jacob for instance is the son of Lehi, but reading from him to Enos feels like it's more than 2 generations to me.  I was curious if you had any specific examples to discuss.  Any thoughts on the Jacob to Enos generations? 

So let's see, Sam, Laman, Lemuel, Nephi were all born before Lehi left Jerusalem.  Perhaps they left when Lehi was 50?  Nephi the youngest of the bunch might have been 16?  Years later Jacob and Joseph are born.  So maybe Jacob was 20-25 years younger than Nephi?  of course, if so, It would most likely have to be that Jacob and Joseph had a different mother than their older brothers.  Of course in Jacob's own book of scripture polygamy is condemned, so that seems unlikely.  So maybe Lehi was closer to 40 when they left Jerusalem.  Lehi dies when he's like 70, we'll say, and Nephi is like 46, Jacob being close to 26.  Nephi we'll say dies at 70 when Jacob is like 50.  I think it could work.  So I'm curious what other examples you have in mind.

You have to bear in mind a couple of things:

• Sariah's child-bearing age... could she still be having children into her 50?
• Nephi and Jacob are the same generation. I've factored that in to calculating the average.
• It's possible to have occasional big gaps in a family tree but unusual to have lots. Usually there's a mix of gaps from 20-40 years, but the average over multiple generations is usually in the high 20s and low 30s

A few examples to consider:

Jacob > Enos etc

4th Nephi, huge age gaps.

[stemelbow]

51 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

So I believe in a man that was the son the God; who lived and died 2000 years ago.  I believe he lived a perfect life was crucified and that he rose again from the grave.  I believe that he was born of the virgin, Mary.  I believe that God led the children of Israel out of Egypt after Moses performed many miracles that finally broke Pharaoh's will to the point he released their slaves.  I believe that the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith and through this young man restored the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.

You really think I am going to be concerned about a history where men were fathers over a long span of their years....on average?  Please tell me that you have something better to occupy your time in order to create doubt in those that have not felt the Holy Spirit as strongly as others.  How about that the vast majority of people have never seen God; or Jesus was a Jew and lived and died in a little, tiny, out of the way village in a desert land among a conquered people?  How about why did children of Reuben call the alter Ed?  

Sheeesh.  If ya ain't interested in the topic just leave it be, no need to comment at all.  No need to get all dramatic about it, trying to put guilt into another for their thoughts.  If nothing else matters to you then what's the point of any of this? 

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, canard78 said:

You have to bear in mind a couple of things:

• Sariah's child-bearing age... could she still be having children into her 50?
• Nephi and Jacob are the same generation. I've factored that in to calculating the average.
• It's possible to have occasional big gaps in a family tree but unusual to have lots. Usually there's a mix of gaps from 20-40 years, but the average over multiple generations is usually in the high 20s and low 30s

A few examples to consider:

Jacob > Enos etc

4th Nephi, huge age gaps.

I'm going to read some more and give this more consideration.

[canard78]

51 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

So I believe in a man that was the son the God; who lived and died 2000 years ago.  I believe he lived a perfect life was crucified and that he rose again from the grave.  I believe that he was born of the virgin, Mary.  I believe that God led the children of Israel out of Egypt after Moses performed many miracles that finally broke Pharaoh's will to the point he released their slaves.  I believe that the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith and through this young man restored the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.

You really think I am going to be concerned about a history where men were fathers over a long span of their years....on average?  Please tell me that you have something better to occupy your time in order to create doubt in those that have not felt the Holy Spirit as strongly as others.  How about that the vast majority of people have never seen God; or Jesus was a Jew and lived and died in a little, tiny, out of the way village in a desert land among a conquered people?  How about why did children of Reuben call the alter Ed?  

I was asked the question in another environment and I wanted to explore it further with people who are well-read on such topics. My mother, who is also involved in the conversation, wrote to FAIRMormon or FARMS, she doesn't remember which, about 15 years ago on the same topic and didn't get a full answer so had shelved it. She, like you, shares those same deep, unwavering convictions. Unlike you, she's willing to also have a discussion about finer details, as are others on this board. Jeff Lindsay takes a similar approach. He's willing to address minor debates (and I agree this is a minor issue) in order to open bigger conversations.

Feel free to not participate in the conversation if you prefer not to.

[rodheadlee]

Does this account for using the long count calendar of 360 days?

[thesometimesaint]

The problem lies in assuming an average always applies to the specific.

SEE http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/10-oldest-mothers-to-give-birth/?view=all

[canard78]

5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The problem lies in assuming an average always applies to the specific.

SEE http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/10-oldest-mothers-to-give-birth/?view=all

I absolutely agree that in every average there are outliers. What's important in this calculation is that we're talking about 1000 years and 18 generations. That ought to smooth out the outliers.

By the way, did you notice something about every single "outlier" on your list? IVF.

[canard78]

18 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Does this account for using the long count calendar of 360 days?

It doesn't factor that in but it would make only a small difference. A 360 day calendar is 1.4% shorter than a 365 day calendar. That would reduce the generational gap from 57 years to around 56 years. Still way above the average.

[webbles]

The gap between Ammaron and Mormon is unknown so I don't think you can say that is a single generation.  I've always envisioned Ammaron as being a grandfather or great-grandfather figure to Mormon.  So you might want to run another calculation with an extra generation or two there.

And it looks like the tough generation gaps are really in the small plates of Nephi (1 Nephi to Omni) and 4 Nephi.  I believe if you calculate the three groups independently (Lehi to Amaleki, Benjamin to Nephi (3), and Nephi(3) to Moroni), you probably will have normal generation gaps for the second group and really long ones for the first and third.

I've actually wondered about this and I thought I had read a book that graphed the Book of Mormon and showed the age gaps.  But I can't remember which book that is nor can I find it.

[thesometimesaint]

Again you're going from an inferred average to stipulate a specific. Your sample size is too small. Few women are specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon. it is illogical to imply a great age from some to all.   

[CV75]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

The average generational gap is calculated as the age of the parent at the time of the child's birth. The gap between generations in the Book of Mormon seem improbable.

A quick look at 1 Nephi through Omni shows one long generation gap between Jacob and Enos. This could be explained if Enos of Enos 1:1 used the term "father" to refer to an ancestor from more than one generation back; in other words, Jacob's son "Enos" from Jacob 7:27 was a progenitor other than the younger Enos' (the one from Enos 1:1) immediate father.

[bluebell]

How can generational gaps be determined when no one knows anyone's age when they had children?

[canard78]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How can generational gaps be determined when no one knows anyone's age when they had children?

You can work out the average by having a start and end point and a count of generations.

We have the approximate date of Jacob's birth (Around 599 to 593BC... so take 595BC as a mid-point). We can then count generations down to the last available birth date: Mormon, born 310AD. Total years between their births = 905. Approximate generations = 16. 905 / 16 = 57

[canard78]

26 minutes ago, webbles said:

The gap between Ammaron and Mormon is unknown so I don't think you can say that is a single generation.  I've always envisioned Ammaron as being a grandfather or great-grandfather figure to Mormon.  So you might want to run another calculation with an extra generation or two there.

And it looks like the tough generation gaps are really in the small plates of Nephi (1 Nephi to Omni) and 4 Nephi.  I believe if you calculate the three groups independently (Lehi to Amaleki, Benjamin to Nephi (3), and Nephi(3) to Moroni), you probably will have normal generation gaps for the second group and really long ones for the first and third.

I've actually wondered about this and I thought I had read a book that graphed the Book of Mormon and showed the age gaps.  But I can't remember which book that is nor can I find it.

Good point. If you add one more between Ammaron and Mormon then it drops to 53. 50 if you make it two. Still a long way above the average.

And I agree that there is a pattern of the short books that cover long time periods being the times when the gaps get longer and the timeline speeds up.

Perhaps the word "son" also means "grandson" and "brother" also means "nephew" or "cousin." That would add several more generations if you wanted to find a resolution. Not sure it's supported by the text.

Edited April 18, 2016 by canard78

[canard78]

24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

A quick look at 1 Nephi through Omni shows one long generation gap between Jacob and Enos. This could be explained if Enos of Enos 1:1 used the term "father" to refer to an ancestor from more than one generation back; in other words, Jacob's son "Enos" from Jacob 7:27 was a progenitor other than the younger Enos' (the one from Enos 1:1) immediate father.

Yep, also possible. As mentioned in my post above, perhaps "father" and "son" were terms that were also used for "grand-father/great-grandfather" or "grand son" etc.

I'm not familiar enough with Hebrew/Egyptian to know if this would be a reasonable hypothesis. Tagging @Robert F. Smith

Edit: Enos talks about "our father Lehi" and there are other references to "our father Abraham." Are there any cases of someone saying "my father Abraham" or Lehi (or similar) when talking about an ancestor.

Edited April 18, 2016 by canard78

[canard78]

29 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Again you're going from an inferred average to stipulate a specific. Your sample size is too small. Few women are specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon. it is illogical to imply a great age from some to all.   

No, it's a simple calculation. # of generations / years between the first and last person in that tree.

You can calculate generational gaps without factoring in the age of the mother.

[JAHS]

Another thing to consider is that the Book of Mormon, like the Old Testament, makes no use of “grand” relationships. A grandson of Jacob may have also been named Enos who actually wrote the book of Enos, but he would be referred to as a son of Jacob rather than grandson, and the second generation Enos would have referred to his grandfather as simply father.

[canard78]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Another thing to consider is that the Book of Mormon, like the Old Testament, makes no use of “grand” relationships. A grandson of Jacob may have also been named Enos who actually wrote the book of Enos, but he would be referred to as a son of Jacob rather than grandson, and the second generation Enos would have referred to his grandfather as simply father.

Yep, thanks, already captured in the earlier conversation.

Usually, people talk about "our father Lehi/Abraham" when mentioning an earlier ancestor. Can you share any examples of people saying "my father Abraham/Lehi" (or similar) when referencing a grandparent or great grandparent?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

The average generational gap is calculated as the age of the parent at the time of the child's birth. The gap between generations in the Book of Mormon seem improbable.

E.g.: John, Born 1900 > Rob (his son), Born 1930 > Tom (John's grandson), Born 1950
We now have two gaps and 50 years between grandfather and grandson. 50/2 gives a gap of 25 years.

The average generational gap ranges from 25-35 years.

The Book of Mormon has an average generational gap of 50-60. There are 18-19 generational gaps, depending on how you count them, spanning over 1000 years.

While a 50-60 year gap is technically possible, it's odd that there's such a high average over such a long time period. The cases of bigger gaps (50+) are usually an exception and only over a couple of generational gaps, not over 18 gaps.

Does FAIRMormon have anything on this? What are your thoughts?

It's a work in progress, but here's a list of approximate ages and generations. I'd welcome any builds or corrections:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ywWijQVtcdDI9-xlsJRCg8sPs9xb4nJ0Mvd5xrCYQPE/edit?usp=sharing

Do you have one too many Nephi's? My understanding is that there were two in Helaman - 4th Nephi. I browsed through the chapter headings and couldn't find a third. See also this chart here: http://www.mormoncharts.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Book-of-Mormon-Genealogy-Chart.pdf

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

The average generational gap is calculated as the age of the parent at the time of the child's birth. The gap between generations in the Book of Mormon seem improbable.

E.g.: John, Born 1900 > Rob (his son), Born 1930 > Tom (John's grandson), Born 1950
We now have two gaps and 50 years between grandfather and grandson. 50/2 gives a gap of 25 years.

The average generational gap ranges from 25-35 years.

The Book of Mormon has an average generational gap of 50-60. There are 18-19 generational gaps, depending on how you count them, spanning over 1000 years.

While a 50-60 year gap is technically possible, it's odd that there's such a high average over such a long time period. The cases of bigger gaps (50+) are usually an exception and only over a couple of generational gaps, not over 18 gaps.

Does FAIRMormon have anything on this? What are your thoughts?

It's a work in progress, but here's a list of approximate ages and generations. I'd welcome any builds or corrections:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ywWijQVtcdDI9-xlsJRCg8sPs9xb4nJ0Mvd5xrCYQPE/edit?usp=sharing

You might want to be more specific, and to cite sources dealing with this issue in the Book of Mormon.  See the following:

John W. Welch, “Longevity of Book of Mormon People and the ‘Age of Man’,” Journal of Collegium Aesculapium, 3 (1985):34-45; reprinted by FARMS in 1985; online at http://www.collegiumaesculapium.org/Journal%20Archives/1985_Longevity%20Book%20of%20Mormon%20People.pdf .

Gy. Acsádi and J. Nemeskéri, History of Human Life Span and Mortality (Budapest: Akadémiai Kiadó, 1970). 

Rebecca Storey, "An Estimate of Mortality in a Pre-Columbian Urban Population," American Anthropologist, 87 (1985):519-535, on ancient Teotihuacan. 

D. I. Kertzer and J. Keith, eds., Age and Anthropological Theory (London, 1984).

Keith Hopkins, Sociological Studies in Roman History, II, Death and Renewal (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1983), 31-200, on the demographic composition of an ancient elite. 

D. Brothwell and B. Chiarelli, Population Biology of the Ancient Egyptians (London: Academic, 1973).

J. M. A. Janssen, "On the Ideal Lifetime of the Egyptians," Oudheidkundige Mededelingen uit het Rÿksmuseum van Oudheden te Leiden, 31 (1950):33-43. 

[consiglieri]

This is a problem for the Book of Mormon, no doubt about it.

I believe John Welch wrote a paper about this some time back in which he postulates unnamed and unmentioned persons in the genealogy. 

Most BOM scholars believe after the 116 pages were lost, Joseph commenced with the Book of Mosiah and translated back around through the small plates.

We all know that between Enos and Mosiah are a host of record keepers who record little to nothing.

It almost seems like they are just stuck in there as place holders to fill out the time necessary between Enos and Mosiah.

And, as noted above, it seems to have come up a bit short . . .

[canard78]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You might want to be more specific, and to cite sources dealing with this issue in the Book of Mormon.  See the following:

John W. Welch, “Longevity of Book of Mormon People and the ‘Age of Man’,” Journal of Collegium Aesculapium, 3 (1985):34-45; reprinted by FARMS in 1985; online at http://www.collegiumaesculapium.org/Journal%20Archives/1985_Longevity%20Book%20of%20Mormon%20People.pdf .

Gy. Acsádi and J. Nemeskéri, History of Human Life Span and Mortality (Budapest: Akadémiai Kiadó, 1970). 

Rebecca Storey, "An Estimate of Mortality in a Pre-Columbian Urban Population," American Anthropologist, 87 (1985):519-535, on ancient Teotihuacan. 

D. I. Kertzer and J. Keith, eds., Age and Anthropological Theory (London, 1984).

Keith Hopkins, Sociological Studies in Roman History, II, Death and Renewal (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1983), 31-200, on the demographic composition of an ancient elite. 

D. Brothwell and B. Chiarelli, Population Biology of the Ancient Egyptians (London: Academic, 1973).

J. M. A. Janssen, "On the Ideal Lifetime of the Egyptians," Oudheidkundige Mededelingen uit het Rÿksmuseum van Oudheden te Leiden, 31 (1950):33-43. 

Thanks. I'm going to struggle to get my hands on most of those! Any salient points in that bibliography you'd be able to share with us?

I'd tagged you half way down to get your view on the language of "my father Lehi" vs "our father Lehi" in Hebrew/Egyptian. Would the phrase "my father" or "my son" be reasonably applied to a bigger generational jump (such as my father = my grandfather and my son = my grandson).