Is the Fermi Paradox evidence of the Gospel Plan?

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

That's good to read. My dad was instrumental in the NASA Apollo Program. So I take a dim view of the science deniers.

My cousin once removed worked for NASA at Kennedy or thereabouts. 

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For those who want to see the ruling of universes literally, as opposed to your own personal universe which you now rule, I would suggest multiverses.  If you lean that way, everyone can have their own.

I see no implication that any of us would rule the present "universe" in which we live- that already belongs to someone else.

http://www.space.com/31465-is-our-universe-just-one-of-many-in-a-multiverse.html

Certainly a possibility. For some reason, I have come to look at our galaxy as the sphere for this earth, and its heaven. This interpretation has implications for the other galaxies of this universe, but not so good implications for the chances of finding life like us, since that is basically limited to our galaxy. My present interpretation of scripture is when Jesus inherits the title of Father, He will be one with the Father, so I really don't know if that involves a new future universe or not. 

Matthew 19:28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

[cdowis]

(quote) John saw four individual beasts in the presence of God giving “glory and honor and thanks” to him (Revelation 4:9). Though they were actual beasts that were saved in their sphere, they figuratively represent classes of beings (man, beasts, creeping things, fowls) that would have happiness in eternity—“enjoyment of eternal felicity” (D&C 77:3).

“I suppose John saw beings there of a thousand forms, that had been saved from ten thousand times ten thousand earths like this,—strange beasts of which we have no conception: all might be seen in heaven. The grand secret was to show John what there was in heaven. John learned that God glorified Himself by saving all that His hands had made, whether beasts, fowls, fishes or men; and He will glorify Himself with them.” (Teachings, pp. 289–91.) (quote)

These literal beasts had increasing degrees of intelligence, to the point that they were worshiping God, and saved in His Kingdom. They certainly did not appear to be human.

Edited April 15, 2016 by cdowis

[RevTestament]

27 minutes ago, cdowis said:

(quote) John saw four individual beasts in the presence of God giving “glory and honor and thanks” to him (Revelation 4:9). Though they were actual beasts that were saved in their sphere, they figuratively represent classes of beings (man, beasts, creeping things, fowls) that would have happiness in eternity—“enjoyment of eternal felicity” (D&C 77:3).

I am very cautious when interpreting scripture. You are giving a quote from the manual almost as if it were a quote from D&C 77:3, which it is not.

3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.

4 Q. What are we to understand by the eyes and wings, which the beasts had?A. Their eyes are a representation of light and knowledge, that is, they are full of knowledge; and their wings are are presentation of power, to move, to act, etc.

I don't read anything about creeping things and fowls in that scripture. Note that these beasts are full of knowledge as represented by their eyes. Somehow I just don't see creeping insects as being full of knowledge. It seems to me these 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms of men responsible for the advancement of knowledge on this earth, which are saved in their sphere, however I do grant that "classes of beings" is rather vague. Traditional Christians tend to think that all men are saved to the same order - but such is not scriptural. As we know there are at least three kingdoms.

Quote

“I suppose John saw beings there of a thousand forms, that had been saved from ten thousand times ten thousand earths like this,—strange beasts of which we have no conception: all might be seen in heaven. The grand secret was to show John what there was in heaven. John learned that God glorified Himself by saving all that His hands had made, whether beasts, fowls, fishes or men; and He will glorify Himself with them.” (Teachings, pp. 289–91.) (quote)

These literal beasts had increasing degrees of intelligence, to the point that they were worshiping God, and saved in His Kingdom. They certainly did not appear to be human.

While it is the mission of Christ to save all the Father hath given Him, whether this actually includes fishes and fowls, is another question. I think of "saving" as the process of being saved from the punishment of sin. Fishes and fowl obviously don't sin, so don't need "saving" in the gospel sense of the word. I realize this doesn't seem to be quite what Joseph Smith is saying - maybe I am just slow to understand things - but then I don't believe temporal polygamy is necessary for exaltation either. However, I do note that more than one virgin is invited to the wedding feast...

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Edited April 15, 2016 by RevTestament

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Arguments from ignorance aren't helpful. I don't know what it is so it must be... .

Who needs Hawking, Neil DeGrassiTyson or Sagan's theories to figure out that universe has it's own mind, or no mind whatsoever. It is very easy to figure out that universe has one idiosyncratic purpose which is to expand and expand forever, analogous to Evolution; perpetuate life at any cost.

The universe will not expand forever. It will expand for a very long time however. Some 100,000 Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion years.

Who knows? At that far distant future the Gods will once again say let there be light and it will be.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

My cousin once removed worked for NASA at Kennedy or thereabouts. 

My mom and dad worked in Los Alamos on the Manhattan Project. 

[RevTestament]

49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My mom and dad worked in Los Alamos on the Manhattan Project. 

My great, great, great, great, great, great...granpappy rebelled against the king of England and got his castle taken away....

Or maybe he was a great uncle of some kind....

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Certainly a possibility. For some reason, I have come to look at our galaxy as the sphere for this earth, and its heaven. This interpretation has implications for the other galaxies of this universe, but not so good implications for the chances of finding life like us, since that is basically limited to our galaxy. My present interpretation of scripture is when Jesus inherits the title of Father, He will be one with the Father, so I really don't know if that involves a new future universe or not. 

Matthew 19:28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Interesting!

[Meadowchik]

Well if you think about it, the energy likely required to travel in space is of such magnitude that as it is developed it may also be used to the ends of extinction-level destruction of its creators. Evolving beings which progress technologically may tend to experience tribal to national to global warfare.

[thesometimesaint]

On 4/15/2016 at 3:57 PM, Meadowchik said:

Well if you think about it, the energy likely required to travel in space is of such magnitude that as it is developed it may also be used to the ends of extinction-level destruction of its creators. Evolving beings which progress technologically may tend to experience tribal to national to global warfare.

Space is closer than you think, about 100 miles above our heads.  For near deep space travel in relatively short time frames we're talking of some type of Matter-Antimatter engine could produce should power. We are working out the theoretical physics of it, but it will probably be several decades before we have a working model. For even deeper space some type of Space Warping engine would be necessary. Unfortunately such is more Sci-Fi than Science right now and for the foreseeable future.

SEE http://news.discovery.com/space/revving-up-the-antimatter-engine-120927.htm

SEE http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html

[rodheadlee]

On 4/15/2016 at 10:36 PM, Bernard Gui said:

So, I expect that one day soon we will have manned flights to the Sun. "But they'll burn up before they get there," you say.

No. We will go at night.

It's already being done. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

It's already being done. 

 

This guy has it backwards... The object was actually a huge balloon that appears regularly to replenish the Sun's supply of helium. Without the new fuel, the Sun would have gone dark millions of years ago. The observed disturbances in the Sun's atmosphere are similar to the change in pitch in the voice when a human speaks while inhaling from a party balloon. After refueling from the space-balloon, radio frequencies recorded from the Sun increased rapidly, and computer translation of the radio signals into words indicate the Sun belched loudly and said, "Heli-yummmmm." The next refueling will be in 3.5 million years. The origination point of the refueling ballon has been triangulated and is thought to be a gaseous nebula between the stars Bellatrix and Betelgeuse. 

[longview]

On 4/15/2016 at 7:03 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

Arguments from ignorance aren't helpful. I don't know what it is so it must be... .

Who needs Hawking, Neil DeGrassiTyson or Sagan's theories to figure out that universe has it's own mind, or no mind whatsoever. It is very easy to figure out that universe has one idiosyncratic purpose which is to expand and expand forever, analogous to Evolution; perpetuate life at any cost.

If you consider the concept of "photon decay" we might find that the "Doppler effect" is NOT in play.  Instead, the "red shifting" is due to the steady decay of infinitesimal components of the photon.  Thereby enabling us to determine the "age" of the photon as a function of time/distance.

[longview]

On 4/15/2016 at 4:57 PM, Meadowchik said:

Well if you think about it, the energy likely required to travel in space is of such magnitude that as it is developed it may also be used to the ends of extinction-level destruction of its creators. Evolving beings which progress technologically may tend to experience tribal to national to global warfare.

There may be more occurring behind the scene than what scientists are able to see.  We know based on our "primitive" theories in Quantum Mechanics that the power of the Sun comes from fusion of lighter elements into heavier elements such as hydrogen atoms into helium, etc.  But what if this was not sufficient by itself?  The Book of Abraham provides a clue.  There may be other forms of energy that are required to enable the "kobaubeams" to operate:

Abraham 3
 1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;
 2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
 11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;
 12 And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.
 13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.

[thesometimesaint]

Photons are packets of energy without mass.

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Space is closer than you think, about 100 miles above our heads.  For near deep space travel in relatively short time frames we're talking of some type of Matter-Antimatter engine could produce should power. We are working out the theoretical physics of it, but it will probably be several decades before we have a working model. For even deeper space some type of Space Warping engine would be necessary. Unfortunately such is more Sci-Fi than Science right now and for the foreseeable future.

SEE http://news.discovery.com/space/revving-up-the-antimatter-engine-120927.htm

SEE http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html

Obviously in the context of this topic--contact with in all probabilty deep-distance alien life--I was referring to deep space travel. 

Wouldn't be awesome to see some of these advancements be realised and an embarkment begun in our lifetimes? And it would be a much better stmulation of economies than perpetual war. IMO

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, longview said:

There may be more occurring behind the scene than what scientists are able to see.  We know based on our "primitive" theories in Quantum Mechanics that the power of the Sun comes from fusion of lighter elements into heavier elements such as hydrogen atoms into helium, etc.  But what if this was not sufficient by itself?  The Book of Abraham provides a clue.  There may be other forms of energy that are required to enable the "kobaubeams" to operate:

Abraham 3
 1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;
 2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
 11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;
 12 And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.
 13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.

I'd say there is absolutely more occuring than what we currently see, notice, or understand!

I'm hoping to bring my two oldest on a tour of CERN soon...It's a 3 hour train ride from here, can't pass up such an opportunity.

[thesometimesaint]

44 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Obviously in the context of this topic--contact with in all probabilty deep-distance alien life--I was referring to deep space travel. 

Wouldn't be awesome to see some of these advancements be realised and an embarkment begun in our lifetimes? And it would be a much better stmulation of economies than perpetual war. IMO

Such aliens would face the same technological problems we face. It takes about 4.25 light years to get to our next closest  star at light speed. We don't know of any object that can go faster.

I'd be thrilled if we would. But alas that is a problem for human psychology and not technology.

[Meadowchik]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Such aliens would face the same technological problems we face. It takes about 4.25 light years to get to our next closest  star at light speed. We don't know of any object that can go faster.

I'd be thrilled if we would. But alas that is a problem for human psychology and not technology.

"Such aliens would face the same technological problems we face. "

Exactly.It's like two distant needles looking for each other in a haystack.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Photons are packets of energy without mass.

 

Sounds like some kids I knew when I was Catholic, who never went to church

 

[Teancum]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 11:27 AM, RevTestament said:

Are we going to get "shut down" before becoming a space faring civilization? I believe so. Assuming LDS beliefs of the gospel are true, this has happened before - once civilization reaches the point where it begins to think about spacefaring, the "battle of Gog and Magog" wind up the scene. It seems to me that YHWH does not depend on space travel - and probably not radio communications either. He seems to be able to communicate directly if He so wishes. Hence, as the Fermi Paradox points out, we have not found any space-faring civilizations because once they reach that point, the gospel brings them to a close, which interestingly would mean something like God is the "Great Filter." Either that or we have been forever alone at least in our galaxy since we don't pick up any artificial radio signals from elsewhere, etc - maybe the Milky Way is "our galaxy." 

some extraneous thoughts

Your bolded statement above is simply an assertion of faith based on very few who have claimed to speak directly with YHWH.  Others personal metaphysical experiences are unique to them and may or may not be communication with a God being.

 

But the OP is interesting. It could be that is the universe in which we live is really 13 billion years old or so that it has taken a really long time on and planet for intelligent life to evolve and none have reached the point of interstellar space travel.   Humans however are a space faring civilization. We have been to the moon and in orbit around our world.  We have sent unmanned spacecraft that is now beyond the boundaries of our solar system.  Traveling to Mars is could happen in our lifetime.  Whether the human species will last long enough to develop technology to travel further than that is unknown.  You and I won't see it.

[longview]

5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Photons are packets of energy without mass.

That is an unscientific thing to say.  I have read that even neutrinos have an infinitesimal amount of mass.  You need to do your homework.  CFR, please.

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, longview said:

That is an unscientific thing to say.  I have read that even neutrinos have an infinitesimal amount of mass.  You need to do your homework.  CFR, please.

Here is your homework assignment.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=photon%20massless

[strappinglad]

Maybe the aliens came here a couple of billion years ago and, finding  only primitive life, decided to wait for a 3 billion more years to return. Then again ,maybe they came in 1945 and finding only a deadly virus, went home.

[longview]

43 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Here is your homework assignment.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=photon%20massless

I am surprised you would step in for TSS.  What are your thoughts on neutrinos?  Are you familiar with the latest on "Photon Decay?"  It is still incumbent on TSS to provide the CFR but I will respond to you personally.

The wiki for "Photon" states the following:

"Like all elementary particles, photons are currently best explained by quantum mechanics but exhibit wave–particle duality, exhibiting properties of both waves and particles. For example, a single photon may be refracted by a lens and in doing so exhibit wave interference with itself, or it can act like a particle that has a definite position and momentum that can be measured. - - -
Experimental checks on photon mass[edit]
Current commonly accepted physical theories imply or assume the photon to be strictly massless. If the photon is not a strictly massless particle, it would not move at the exact speed of light, c in vacuum. Its speed would be lower and depend on its frequency. Relativity would be unaffected by this; the so-called speed of light, c, would then not be the actual speed at which light moves, but a constant of nature which is the maximum speed that any object could theoretically attain in space-time.[23] Thus, it would still be the speed of space-time ripples (gravitational waves and gravitons), but it would not be the speed of photons.
If a photon did have non-zero mass, there would be other effects as well. Coulomb's law would be modified and the electromagnetic field would have an extra physical degree of freedom. These effects yield more sensitive experimental probes of the photon mass than the frequency dependence of the speed of light. If Coulomb's law is not exactly valid, then that would allow the presence of an electric field to exist within a hollow conductor when it is subjected to an external electric field. This thus allows one to test Coulomb's law to very high precision.[24] A null result of such an experiment has set a limit of m ≲ 10−14 eV/c2.[25]
Sharper upper limits on the speed of light have been obtained in experiments designed to detect effects caused by the galactic vector potential. Although the galactic vector potential is very large because the galactic magnetic field exists on very great length scales, only the magnetic field would be observable if the photon is massless. In the case that the photon has mass, the mass term \scriptstyle\frac{1}{2} m^2 A_{\mu}A^{\mu} would affect the galactic plasma. The fact that no such effects are seen implies an upper bound on the photon mass of m < 3×10−27 eV/c2.[26] The galactic vector potential can also be probed directly by measuring the torque exerted on a magnetized ring.[27] Such methods were used to obtain the sharper upper limit of 10−18eV/c2 (the equivalent of 1.07×10−27 atomic mass units) given by the Particle Data Group.[28]
These sharp limits from the non-observation of the effects caused by the galactic vector potential have been shown to be model dependent.[29] If the photon mass is generated via the Higgs mechanism then the upper limit of m≲10−14 eV/c2 from the test of Coulomb's law is valid.
Photons inside superconductors do develop a nonzero effective rest mass; as a result, electromagnetic forces become short-range inside superconductors.[30]"

The latest theorizing on mass of neutrinos in many new articles, including this one:  http://ctp.berkeley.edu/neutrino/neutrino.html