amo Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Hi. Would there be a reason why no mention of the 4 "mormon" missionaries injured in Belgium has been made at G-Conference...? Any thoughts?
Bobbieaware Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 36 minutes ago, amo said: Hi. Would there be a reason why no mention of the 4 "mormon" missionaries injured in Belgium has been made at G-Conference...? Any thoughts? In today's explosively volatile' terrorism-infected environment, why put any ideas in some maniac's (or maniacs') head by putting any more attention on the this matter than is needed? 1
Boanerges Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 By my estimation those missionaries have gotten plenty of media attention and don't need more than the passing reference by Elder Oaks that they got. I especially liked the Sunday sessions of this conference and the focus on God's love for all of His children. 2
PeterPear Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 5 hours ago, amo said: Hi. Would there be a reason why no mention of the 4 "mormon" missionaries injured in Belgium has been made at G-Conference...? Any thoughts? Elder Oaks mentioned them.
Calm Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 I believe he was the one who visited with two of them, so it makes sense they would be high in his thoughts: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39118817&nid=148
canard78 Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 21 hours ago, PeterPear said: Elder Oaks mentioned them. Do you have the detailed quote/reference please?
Popular Post Buckeye Posted April 4, 2016 Popular Post Posted April 4, 2016 21 hours ago, Calm said: I believe he was the one who visited with two of them, so it makes sense they would be high in his thoughts: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39118817&nid=148 Elder Oaks seems to have a strong personal desire to seek out and help injured missionaries. When my brother-in-law was injured on his mission, Elder Oaks was touring the area on church assignments and insisted on meeting with him. Elder Oaks gave him a blessing that has strengthened him ever since. Injured missionaries really are a special concern to Elder Oaks. 5
rodheadlee Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 On 4/3/2016 at 0:11 PM, amo said: Hi. Would there be a reason why no mention of the 4 "mormon" missionaries injured in Belgium has been made at G-Conference...? Any thoughts? Yes God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) I'm uncertain what contact any of the Brethren have had with the family (though, while I lack any details, I'm all but absolutely certain that such contact has occurred on some level, and likely is ongoing in some form) but I have more than a passing acquaintance with one of the missionaries injured in the attack on the airport in Brussels. Elder Norby taught me in seminary for two of my four years. I submitted an Op-Ed about the attack to the semiweekly that is published in our former city of residence, and it's due to run tomorrow. Edited April 5, 2016 by Kenngo1969 1
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." CFR. Then, after you fail to produce an actual reference, please retract your lie. No one is mad they survived. Some of us just doubt that God had anything to do with it. If a benevolent God did save these guys, somehow, through some utterly undetectable, unrecordable, unverifiable means, it certainly says something extremely unflattering about this 'God' that He would take the time to give these lucky guys a miracle while letting over 300 people be injured and 33 others to be BLOWN TO PIECES BY NAIL BOMBS.
canard78 Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Here's the quote: Quote "God rarely infringes on the agency of any of his children by intervening against some, for the relief of others, but he does ease the burdens of our afflictions and strengthen us to bare them as he did with Alma's people in the land of Helaman. He does not prevent all disasters, but he does answer our prayers as he did with the uniquely powerful cyclone that threatened to prevent the dedication of the Temple in Fiji. Or he does blunt their effects, as he did with the terrorist bombing that took so many lives in the Brussels airport, but only injured our missionaries." I have problems with this conceptually. Where were the missionaries standing when the explosion happened? Were they closer to the bomb than other people who died? Or were they simply lucky to be far enough away that they were injured and not killed? What evidence is there that the force of the explosion was blunted? This is, sadly, where folk myths spring from. I think Elder Oak's comments were well-intentioned but misguided. It's wonderful that lots of people survived the bombings and it's tragic that dozens didn't. I don't believe God played any role in individually selecting the people who were near the bomb vs the people who weren't. Life is random. So is death. My first (I think) thread on this board was to ask the question: "Does God kill people." If you want to embrace the idea that God chose which people, especially the missionaries, would survive the bomb, you also have to accept that God chose to let 33 people die when he could have blunted it for them too. If you celebrate the idea that God diverted the cyclone away from the Fiji temple you have to also support the idea that once diverted it instead obliterated the homes of people who could ill-afford to lose them. The only way I can reconcile the randomness of both tragedies is to conclude that life is random and God had nothing to do with either the tragedy or the claimed miracles of survival. Edited April 5, 2016 by canard78 Formatting 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 29 minutes ago, canard78 said: Life is random. So is death. My first (I think) thread on this board was to ask the question: "Does God kill people." 'Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows'. Quote If you celebrate the idea that God diverted the cyclone away from the Fiji temple you have to also support the idea that once diverted it instead obliterated the homes of people who could ill-afford to lose them. Including the family of one of the good and faithful Elders now serving in our ward, taking the life of the aunt who raised him. 2
rodheadlee Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 7 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said: "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." CFR. Then, after you fail to produce an actual reference, please retract your lie. No one is mad they survived. Some of us just doubt that God had anything to do with it. If a benevolent God did save these guys, somehow, through some utterly undetectable, unrecordable, unverifiable means, it certainly says something extremely unflattering about this 'God' that He would take the time to give these lucky guys a miracle while letting over 300 people be injured and 33 others to be BLOWN TO PIECES BY NAIL BOMBS. Those are my thoughts, amo asked for my thoughts. You want to CFR my thoughts? I think you should read Psalms 37 and 46. 1
Boanerges Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 30 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Those are my thoughts, amo asked for my thoughts. You want to CFR my thoughts? I think you should read Psalms 37 and 46. Apparently you think a good dose of the canon as a cannon is in order. In my experience that's seldom effective.
rodheadlee Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 40 minutes ago, Boanerges said: Apparently you think a good dose of the canon as a cannon is in order. In my experience that's seldom effective. That's not surprising.
canard78 Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: Those are my thoughts, amo asked for my thoughts. You want to CFR my thoughts? "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." The second half of the thoughts contains a statement that can be tested, quantified and proven. If "a lot of people are mad" that the missionaries have been saved from death, you presumably base your thoughts that they are mad on some sort of evidence. Thoughts rarely pop out of nowhere. Do you have any evidence or references that "a lot of people are mad?" 1
canard78 Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: 'Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows'. Including the family of one of the good and faithful Elders now serving in our ward, taking the life of the aunt who raised him. Regarding the first reference. Is that saying not a sparrow dies without God knowing, or without God choosing it to be so? I think there's a difference. I could believe in a God that was aware of the deaths and injuries of the Brussels bombing and wept with and for those suffering. The idea that he or the angels drew a circle of protection to "blunt" the blast around some but not others is not one I believe in. There have been several missionary deaths in the last year or two. I don't think God gives them a special heavenly escort. On your second point. That's sad to hear. How do you reconcile the idea that God could redirect a cyclone to protect a bricks and mortar building and by doing so, send it headlong into the homes of people like those you mention. How is that a Godly act worth celebrating as Elder Oaks has chosen to? 2
cinepro Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 12 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said: "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." CFR. Then, after you fail to produce an actual reference, please retract your lie. No one is mad they survived. Some of us just doubt that God had anything to do with it. If a benevolent God did save these guys, somehow, through some utterly undetectable, unrecordable, unverifiable means, it certainly says something extremely unflattering about this 'God' that He would take the time to give these lucky guys a miracle while letting over 300 people be injured and 33 others to be BLOWN TO PIECES BY NAIL BOMBS. Well, to be fair, depending on how you look at it God saved about 15 million Mormons and over 7 billion non Mormons from dying in the Belgium attack. The degree to which each one being saved looks like a miracle is the only variable. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Perhaps a contribution I made to another thread on this subject also is relevant here (although I'm often wrong about that). But, for what it's worth: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/67350-elder-oaks-on-opposition/?do=findComment&comment=1209610916 Edited April 5, 2016 by Kenngo1969
consiglieri Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 4 hours ago, cinepro said: Well, to be fair, depending on how you look at it God saved about 15 million Mormons and over 7 billion non Mormons from dying in the Belgium attack. The degree to which each one being saved looks like a miracle is the only variable. People have been covering for God so long now it is sometimes difficult to see it for what it is. Mormons are just carrying on a noble tradition. If a person you like gets killed, it was their turn to go. God has work waiting for them on the other side. If something horrible happens to somebody that doesn't kill them, then it is a trial from God that will help make them better and strengthen their faith. They may have even chosen this particular trial in the premortal existence. If someone you like almost gets killed, it was a miracle from God. We commonly overlook all the people God didn't save in order to save the one we like. We also commonly overlook all the people that we like that God didn't save in similar instances. What is important is that God never be blamed for anything that happens. Mission accomplished!
Kenngo1969 Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) There's at least one logical fallacy (and probably more) in the foregoing post, Consig. God doesn't require another's life (or the lives of others) as "collateral" in order to "save" someone. What part of "all flesh is in mine hand" (Doctrine and Covenants 61:6) do you not understand? Also, the Apostle Paul taught that "all things work together for the good of them that love God" (Romans 8:28, emphasis mine); not just the "good" stuff and not just the stuff we understand, but all things. I'd also be interested in your response, if any, to my post to you on the other thread. Edited April 6, 2016 by Kenngo1969 1
Sleeper Cell Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 17 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said: "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." CFR. Then, after you fail to produce an actual reference, please retract your lie. No one is mad they survived. CFR, that no one is mad they survived.
Russell C McGregor Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 17 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said: "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." CFR. Then, after you fail to produce an actual reference, please retract your lie. No one is mad they survived. Some of us just doubt that God had anything to do with it. If a benevolent God did save these guys, somehow, through some utterly undetectable, unrecordable, unverifiable means, it certainly says something extremely unflattering about this 'God' that He would take the time to give these lucky guys a miracle while letting over 300 people be injured and 33 others to be BLOWN TO PIECES BY NAIL BOMBS. So you're pleased that they survived, then? You don't seem all that pleased. And you seem to take personally the claim that "a lot of people are mad about it." Why is that?
Teancum Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 19 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Yes God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it. Whose is mad about it? CFR please.
Teancum Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 9 hours ago, canard78 said: "God saved them from certain death and a lot of people are mad about it." The second half of the thoughts contains a statement that can be tested, quantified and proven. If "a lot of people are mad" that the missionaries have been saved from death, you presumably base your thoughts that they are mad on some sort of evidence. Thoughts rarely pop out of nowhere. Do you have any evidence or references that "a lot of people are mad?" No Rodheadlee would simply rather rant about it. 1
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