Has any-1 heard about the 4 "mormon" missionaries injured?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I apologize for my frustrated rhetoric earlier. Because some of the responses in this thread come off to me as being extremely (if inadvertently) callous in regards to the pain some people in the world suffer through, I am extremely frustrated with some of these ideas, but I have no bad feelings towards the actual people espousing them; if that wasn't clear, I will try to do better in the future. Nevertheless, all my actual points still stand. 

[flameburns623]

On 4/5/2016 at 6:26 PM, consiglieri said:

People have been covering for God so long now it is sometimes difficult to see it for what it is.

Mormons are just carrying on a noble tradition.

If a person you like gets killed, it was their turn to go.  God has work waiting for them on the other side.

If something horrible happens to somebody that doesn't kill them, then it is a trial from God that will help make them better and strengthen their faith.  They may have even chosen this particular trial in the premortal existence.

If someone you like almost gets killed, it was a miracle from God.  We commonly overlook all the people God didn't save in order to save the one we like.  We also commonly overlook all the people that we like that God didn't save in similar instances.

What is important is that God never be blamed for anything that happens.

Mission accomplished!

For all the pain you suffered, my mama. For all the torment of your past and future years, my mama. For all the anguish this picture of pain will cause you. For the unspeakable mystery that brings good fathers and sons into the world and lets a mother watch them tear at each other’s throats. For the Master of the Universe, whose suffering world I do not comprehend. For dreams of horror, for nights of waiting, for memories of death, for the love I have for you, for all the things I remember, and for all the things I should remember but have forgotten, for all these I created this painting—an observant Jew working on a crucifixion because there was no aesthetic mold in his own religious tradition into which he could pour a painting of ultimate anguish and torment.

Chaim Potok, My Name Is Asher Lev

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

I apologize for my frustrated rhetoric earlier. Because some of the responses in this thread come off to me as being extremely (if inadvertently) callous in regards to the pain some people in the world suffer through, I am extremely frustrated with some of these ideas, but I have no bad feelings towards the actual people espousing them; if that wasn't clear, I will try to do better in the future. Nevertheless, all my actual points still stand. 

Yep.

That's me.

I'm simply calloused to the pain of the world.

Born almost ten weeks premature in an era in which it was extremely rare that preemies born that early survived.  (The doctor told my father, "It's a boy.  Don't expect him to survive the night.")  I have Cerebral Palsy, as a result of which I have had surgery on every major muscle in my left leg; have had my left hip reconstructed three times; have had hardware implanted and removed; have spent a total of six months with my lower body completely immobilized in plaster; have used every ambulatory device imaginable, including a wheelchair, canes, crutches, and braces. Was "mainstreamed" in school from day one, which, although it proved to be a blessing in the long run because it forced me to engage the world on its terms rather than demanding or expecting that the world would engage me on my terms, certainly was no cakewalk in the short run, because I was different; and because I was different, I was teased, taunted, and physically bullied.  Certainly didn't emerge from all of those physical challenges unscathed emotionally, and have alternated between being nipped at on the heels and devoured whole by the dog of clinical depression for longer than I care to admit.   Graduated college twice with honors, then found myself in a dead-end job answering phones.  Decided I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life.  Decided to go to law school; lost my nerve and withdrew before I got any credit and found another job ... answering phones; decided I really didn't want to do that for the rest of my life, so I swallowed my pride and went back. Meanwhile, that dog chasing me?  He really threatened to devour me whole during law school, throughout practically the entirety of my legal education.  Navigated various other fits, starts, and missteps, but finally reached what I thought was the top of the mountain, only to be denied admission to my would-be chosen profession six months later based largely, if not entirely, on my mental health history and on issues and incidents stemming therefrom.  Sought, in view of my lack of licensure, another credential to prove my legal acumen and called a certifying body for paralegals, told them I have a law degree, and asked what I needed to do to obtain certification as a paralegal: "Take 15 credits of paralegal studies coursework," they said.  I said, "I'm sorry.  Did you miss the part where I said I have a law degree?"  "15 credits," they said.  So I swallowed my pride and went back to school ... uh-gin, as Forrest Gump would say.  Got the 15 credits, passed the National Association of Legal Assistants' Certified Paralegal examination ... and still couldn't find any work in my would-be chosen profession.  Didn't do any of this (particularly not law school) cheap.  Graduated with massive debt and nothing to show for it (law is my very expensive hobby).  Am the textbook case for the school of thought that says, "If you can't find a job in your career field, simply default on your student loans.  Just stop paying.  Sure, it'll destroy your credit (perhaps permanently) but what else are they going to do to you?"  Instead, comparative lack of resources notwithstanding, paid every single cent due on my student loans. Every.  Single.  Cent.  Finally found a job in my would-be chosen profession.  Sure, it was answering phones ... uh-gin ... but it was for a law firm.  (Sigh!  If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!  I'll take what I can get!) Moved.  Signed a lease for a year. Was saddled with a supervisor who took the Anti-Dale Carnegie Course in How to Lose Friends and Alienate People.  Couldn't do anything right for Anti-Dale Carnegie graduate.  Anti-Dale Carnegie graduate wanted to give me a written reprimand.  Left of my own accord (but shortly before being pushed out the door, I have no doubt) but with ten months still remaining on my (not-cheap) lease.  Found another job .... answering phones ... uh-gin, the telephone customer service equivalent of "Would you like fries with that?" ...

Now, Jeremy, I know what you're going to say.  "But, but, but, you don't understand ...

War!

Famine!

Pestilence!

Disease!

Destruction!

Depravity!

And you really think anything you've been through stacks up against any of that?"

No.  No, I don't.  I simply want you to know whence springs my complete, total, abject, absolute, utter lack of empathy.  (The reality is, even if two people experience exactly the same horrible, tragic event or series of events, the one won't respond in exactly the same fashion as the other, because each of them brings different values, attitudes, outlooks, perspectives, and so on, to it.)

My point in sharing all of that is not to compare it to other circumstances that are far less advantageous, far direr, far graver, and so on.  It's simply to show that in my own sphere, I have plenty of reasons to shake my widdo fist and stomp my widdo foot at the Lord of the Universe, but what's the point?  As Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin said, "Come what may, and love it."  

So I hope you'll forgive me if, in light of that, your ersatz, quasi, non-apology apology ("There's nothing wrong with what I said.  The only problem is the way in which I said it," when, in fact, there is plenty wrong with what you said) rings more than just a bit hollow.  You've accused the rest of us of being shallow, of offering shallow answers to deep problems.

Look in the mirror.  Don't just look in the mirror long enough to say, "Gosh, I was really abrasive, and that was mean.  I shouldn't have done that ... even though I was right."  Look in the mirror long enough to ponder long and hard about whether you truly do see the world as it is, instead of as you are.  Look in the mirror long enough and hard enough to ponder whether, in an infinite number of potential universes, there might actually be more depth in at least one of those potential universes in the answers you have dismissed as shallow platitudes.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

My apology was sincere; I don't know what else I can say to convince you if stating it outright doesn't do it. But my points are also still valid. I'm sorry for all that you've been through, Kenngo; I can't even imagine how awful some of that must have been. Certainly my own petty problems pale in comparison. I can relate to being bullied as a kid, and definitely dealing with depression, which I've struggled with all my life as well - I've even done the crappy phone job, the multiple tries at college, and the job loss. You have my sympathy and respect.

But I wish you realized that this just makes it all the more difficult to believe that there is anyone who intervenes. It was the doctors who helped you, not a Priesthood blessing. And please note that you are the one putting out the words you assume are in my mouth about how your painful experience 'stacks up' to the even worse atrocities, or how you have an 'utter lack of empathy', or all rest of it. I have never and would never say something like that, and I apologize if I came off as implying it; I did not intend to. 

However, repeating the cliche quote (in multiple threads, even) about how we see the world doesn't make it particularly profound, and I never claimed to be "the one person capable of seeing the world [...] as it is" in the first place. My original initial responses were to rodheadlee and Pahoran, who accused 'many' people on my side of the debate of being 'mad' and 'displeased' that people had survived the tragedy (clearly referencing my participation in the other thread and, for instance, Sleeper Cell's responses to me there).

I didn't even address you until after you accused me of talking out of both sides of my mouth, and then tried to defend your position by referring to a speech made by a genocidal warlord justifying an invasive army which slaughtered innocent children at God's command. Using the justification given by a child-killer is incredibly callous, to me, as were, say, some of strappinglad's words about death. You're the one who brought up the question of the sanity of your friends and family member, and I have already stated that I don't think sanity has anything to do with it, because perfectly sane people can come to false conclusions about reality. You're the one who came back (before I even had a chance to reply a single time) with multiple posts rudely insisting that I respond more fully to you (which certainly felt like 'interrogation' to me). You're the one who brought up the unconvincing (to me) secondhand accounts of supposed miraculous experiences into the discussion in the first place, and you are the one who immediately refused to actually talk about them to the degree that would be necessary to convince someone who hadn't experienced them, apparently taking it for granted that I should just accept them without question or any effort at persuasion on your part. If you weren't willing to discuss them at the slightest sign of skepticism, I don't understand why you would bring them into the discussion to begin with; I certainly don't know how to convince you that, yes, I try to be as honest an investigator looking for data as I know how to be, if, when I ask for that data, you refuse to give it. It certainly doesn't give you the high ground necessary for condescendingly explaining to me that this is a Discussion board. I'm the one who was willing to discuss; you're the one who refused. 

I really don't see how I'm the aggressor here. You might spend some time at the mirror yourself. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Kenngo1969]

Jeremy,

I'm "chewing" on your reply.  It may take me several days to do it justice; I ask for your patience.  I do apologize for questioning your sincerity and for putting words in your mouth.

Stay tuned.

More to follow.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

No worries. Probably best for everyone to take a breather and enjoy the weekend anyway, after all the back and forth 'round these parts this past week. 

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

No worries. Probably best for everyone to take a breather and enjoy the weekend anyway, after all the back and forth 'round these parts this past week. 

Some of us have to work.

Both days.

Sigh.

Gotta pay the bills somehow.

[Kenngo1969]

Jeremy,

I know we have irreconcilably different world views, and nothing I say is going to change that. You have accused me of not wanting to expose the experiences of my family and friends to close scrutiny: Guilty as charged! Those experiences don't provide empirical evidence for anything because they were not meant to.

Yes, God gave us brains to help us sift the “intellectual wheat” from the “intellectual chaff,” as it were. If someone wants to dismiss such experiences as “intellectual chaff” because they have not been subjected to such a sifting process, that's fine, but that's not the only way God gave us to know things (see 1 Corinthians 2:11). And philosophers, poets, and even artists of various stripes would tend to agree: “The heart knows reasons that reason knows not of.”

In one case, yes, my family member's experience was accompanied by the proverbial “voice in the head” that you have dismissed, along with an inner vision of that person that I think was intended to convey the importance of what he was about to experience: “Hey, you! Sit up and take notice!” In any case, he learned something he would not have learned otherwise that prevented a family tragedy. In another case, my friend's experience involved an external vision and an extended two-way conversation.

Make of those things what you will. I accept them substantially as they were related to me.

As for my own experiences being proof of your world view, I don't look at them that way. Yes, two failed major operations set me back, perhaps permanently in some ways. But I had three successful operations before that, and three successful operations after that. Yes, you're absolutely right: the surgeon that performed the latter three operations deserves an enormous share of the credit, but if it's all the same to you, I'm also convinced that God guided us to him and that think God guided his hand. Do I have any empirical proof of that? No. We only consulted about half a dozen surgeons, after all (all of whom felt the best course of action was to try, again, something similar to what had already failed, twice, with a similar post-operative course). Perhaps we should have consulted the “Surgeons, Orthopedic” section of the yellow pages. Perhaps we would have found someone in the “B's” who was willing to try something similar to what this surgeon did. But that's not what happened, and as the trier of fact in this case, I govern what evidence I will admit, what evidence I will exclude (Martians could have referred us to him, after all!) and what weight I will give to the evidence I do admit. And I don't think I would be walking at all today (albeit most of the time with a pair of ambulatory devices or with a pronounced limp without them) let alone being able to do so relatively free of pain, if it weren't for his intervention.

Who knows? Maybe he agrees with you! We've never discussed my experiences with him, or any role divine intervention may have played in those experiences, in detail (although I did provide him with a copy of my autobiography that includes a detailed discussion of the first 15 ½ or so years of my medical history, including the role I think God played in it). Still, perhaps he says, “You know what? God, schmod! It's all me, baby! All me! I am all of that, and a bag of chips, baby!”

Conversely, God didn't bully me, ridicule me, taunt me, and so on, in elementary and part of junior high school. A few bullies with insecure egos who saw me as an easy target did that. (In the end, I won at least the grudging respect of almost all of my classmates, even some of the bullies). God didn't prevent my admission to the Utah State Bar: the character and fitness panel that heard my application, along with witnesses who provided adverse testimony, did that, and while their decision was not, in my view, based entirely on the best of information, it's not as though I can say, “No, no. You're wrong. I was never charged with disorderly conduct after a disagreement with officials at the university's Center for Disability Services. I never had any conflict with professors, nor was I dismissed from the University's MPA program based in large part on that behavior,” and so on.

There were too many people willing to speak ill of me (and that was largely my fault), and not enough people will to speak well of me, and the character and fitness panel was too willing to believe the former and not willing enough to believe the latter. (Again, I don't place the blame, at least, not all of it, on the panel: much of my predicament is my own fault, not God's). I hope, someday, to be able to stand before another character and fitness panel and say, “Pasts are like rear-ends: Everyone has one, and it's behind you—at least when you're standing up.” And/or, perhaps, “Pasts are like rear-ends: everyone has one, though admittedly, some are better than others.”

If I never get/take that chance, and if I'm destined, instead, to answer phones eight hours a day, five days a week for the foreseeable future, so be it. Things could be worse: I could still be attempting, futilely, to please Her in Whose Eyes I Can Do Nothing Right for $2/hour less than I'm making now, or I could work for an employer who values my contribution (mundane and routine though it is) and who sees me as an actual human being rather than as an automaton which must be programmed, for $2/hour more. I'd rather not be on the phones, and I hope to work at least one day before I die for someone who thinks I'm good for something else, but, I've answered phones for half a dozen companies and agencies, and this is (apart from some non-businesslike-behavior some of my coworkers tend to engage in—but who can blame them? They're kids! ;)), by far, the best phone environment I've ever worked in. As Elder Joseph B. Wirthin (and his mother) said, “Come what may, and love it.”

For more clues as to what informs my outlook, see here:

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/maintaining-hope-against-all-odds/

And here:

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/beating-the-odds/.

Irreconcilably differing worldviews, and other disagreements, notwithstanding, I wish you well.  

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

"Irreconcilably differing worldviews, and other disagreements, notwithstanding, I wish you well. "

Thanks - back at ya.