Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 Why do so many post threads about the Church blaming it for human failings? Other do so and it is obvious they are either non-members, or only attending as small children. Everyone who is polite should be able to post, but at least be fair. We all have flaws, but is it fair to blame those flaws on the Church and the Gospel? My flaws and sins are my own and my own fault, I lay none of them at the alter of the Church and Sacrament. It is the same with every man, even General Authorities, but I have never know the GA's to blame the Church, not while GA's. It is true that in the early Church many GA's who became apostates did so. I am not preaching or bearing testimony, only seeking to know why. I know both are against the rules, so I am not going to break them and I am hoping those who reply do not. But membership and non-membership, all should be honest about the Church and their disagreements. Anyway, welcome other polite opinions.
thesometimesaint Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 It is always easier to remove the beam from our own eyes than the mote from others eyes. 1
Guest Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: It is always easier to remove the beam from our own eyes than the mote from others eyes. So true. It's easier for me, which causes me to repent often.
CA Steve Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 Questioning the flawed leaders can get you kicked out of the perfect Church.
Gray Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 The church is an organization, but we almost talk about it like it's a person. The "church" can't do anything. The flawed members and leaders are responsible for all the good and bad that goes on. 4
Jeanne Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: Why do so many post threads about the Church blaming it for human failings? Other do so and it is obvious they are either non-members, or only attending as small children. Everyone who is polite should be able to post, but at least be fair. We all have flaws, but is it fair to blame those flaws on the Church and the Gospel? My flaws and sins are my own and my own fault, I lay none of them at the alter of the Church and Sacrament. It is the same with every man, even General Authorities, but I have never know the GA's to blame the Church, not while GA's. It is true that in the early Church many GA's who became apostates did so. I am not preaching or bearing testimony, only seeking to know why. I know both are against the rules, so I am not going to break them and I am hoping those who reply do not. But membership and non-membership, all should be honest about the Church and their disagreements. Anyway, welcome other polite opinions. I am probably very guilty of this..for which I can apologize. I don't usually start threads but state my own thoughts and opinions. I do try to be fair because I don't feel non-mormon or apostate. Mormons will always be "my people" because of my heritage and my upbringing. If I have offended you, I am so sorry. Yeah..we all have faults and I have many. I believe that there is good reason to blame sometimes but I also know from experience here, it is because of misunderstandings and ALL of us are guilty of being quite judgemental here. Edited March 29, 2016 by Jeanne 2
JAHS Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 46 minutes ago, Gray said: The church is an organization, but we almost talk about it like it's a person. The "church" can't do anything. The flawed members and leaders are responsible for all the good and bad that goes on. Well hopefully there is the occasional divine revelation from God involved in the good the members do. 1
CV75 Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: Why do so many post threads about the Church blaming it for human failings? They are people with human failings magnifying their failings rather than applying tried and true attributes and methods to overcome them by seeking to understand the Lord's dealings with flawed humans.
Gray Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JAHS said: Well hopefully there is the occasional divine revelation from God involved in the good the members do. Well, you can't get away from God. But all the actors in the play are fallible human beings. Edited March 29, 2016 by Gray
Guest Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, Gray said: Well, you can't get away from God. But all the actors in the play are fallible human beings. As I stated in the OP.
Popular Post Buckeye Posted March 29, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) I will publicly discuss faults I see in church leaders in only two circumstances: If the situation is conducive (which unfortunately is rare) it can be helpful to discuss others' failings as a means to encourage members that they too can overcome. As one example, I once sat in council with a sister who was wracked with guilt over her business failing and having to file bankruptcy. I felt impressed to share with her that Joseph also had business struggles and the church was nearly wiped out because of the 1836 panic. That example seemed to help her. Other examples (even more personal) are when I share with my kids or siblings times when I or grandpa failed. Again, the purpose is to help them overcome similar failings in their lives. This one generally ends up less positive, but sometimes members get to preaching about how church leaders either (i) don't make mistakes because God doesn't allow them to or (ii) even if they make mistakes we should follow those mistakes because God will make it all better through the atonement. I've given those arguments a lot of thought and I reject them. If God works the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, then his current leaders can lead us astray just as much as leaders in other dispensations. And, yes, while the atonement can heal all harms, it is still better not to follow an error in the first place. To wit, if my daughter said "my boyfriend says we can sleep together and even if its wrong the atonement can fix that" I would counter that the atonement works through the pain and suffering in such circumstances, it doesn't avoid it entirely. The same is true were a church leader to say "follow me and even if I'm wrong God will make it alright." He sure can, but I'd rather not go through the pain of the mistake. In situations like this, I will sometimes point out mistakes of leaders - such as MMM, the Martin handcart company, or the racial priesthood bans - as times when it would been better to disobey (or at least not actively support the error). Of course, those errors are a lot easier to see in hindsight. Edit to add: To be clear, I'm not speaking of public criticisms of ideas or teachings given by church leaders, but only public discussion of the personal failures of the leaders themselves. Ideas and teachings are always fair game. Edited March 29, 2016 by Buckeye 6
Bobbieaware Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: Why do so many post threads about the Church blaming it for human failings? Other do so and it is obvious they are either non-members, or only attending as small children. Everyone who is polite should be able to post, but at least be fair. We all have flaws, but is it fair to blame those flaws on the Church and the Gospel? My flaws and sins are my own and my own fault, I lay none of them at the alter of the Church and Sacrament. It is the same with every man, even General Authorities, but I have never know the GA's to blame the Church, not while GA's. It is true that in the early Church many GA's who became apostates did so. I am not preaching or bearing testimony, only seeking to know why. I know both are against the rules, so I am not going to break them and I am hoping those who reply do not. But membership and non-membership, all should be honest about the Church and their disagreements. Anyway, welcome other polite opinions. Two words: spiritual immaturity. 1
Buckeye Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 16 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Two words: spiritual immaturity.
mfbukowski Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 IMO moderation has gotten lax and we are getting every yahoo in the world showing up.
Buckeye Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: IMO moderation has gotten lax and we are getting every yahoo in the world showing up. Well, the wackos do tend to show up around conference time.
JAHS Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, CA Steve said: Questioning the flawed leaders can get you kicked out of the perfect Church. 1 hour ago, Gray said: Well, you can't get away from God. But all the actors in the play are fallible human beings. Right. But we should of course avoid harsh criticism of our church leaders. Elder Oaks gave a good talk about this some years ago: Criticism - Dallin H. Oaks, Ensign, Feb. 1987 "Does the commandment to avoid faultfinding and evil speaking apply to Church members’ destructive personal criticism of Church leaders? Of course it does. It applies to criticism of all Church leaders—local or general, male or female. In our relations with all of our Church leaders, we should follow the Apostle Paul’s direction: “Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father.” (1 Tim. 5:1.) “Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local. Jude condemns those who ‘speak evil of dignities.’ (Jude 1:8.) Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true. As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947, “‘When we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.’ (In Conference Report, Apr. 1947, p. 24.)” (Address to Church Educational System teachers, Aug. 16, 1985.)
consiglieri Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Pa Pa said: Why do so many post threads about the Church blaming it for human failings? Other do so and it is obvious they are either non-members, or only attending as small children. Everyone who is polite should be able to post, but at least be fair. We all have flaws, but is it fair to blame those flaws on the Church and the Gospel? My flaws and sins are my own and my own fault, I lay none of them at the alter of the Church and Sacrament. It is the same with every man, even General Authorities, but I have never know the GA's to blame the Church, not while GA's. It is true that in the early Church many GA's who became apostates did so. I am not preaching or bearing testimony, only seeking to know why. I know both are against the rules, so I am not going to break them and I am hoping those who reply do not. But membership and non-membership, all should be honest about the Church and their disagreements. Anyway, welcome other polite opinions. It would be one thing if the Church leaders claimed that they were fallible and prone to human mistakes, and were actually struggling to figure things out the same as you and I and the rest of us. If this were the case, it wouldn't make sense to blame leaders for human failings. The problem is that the LDS Church has gone all-in claiming doctrinal infallibility for their leaders. We teach our members from Primary up to "follow the prophet, don't go astray," and "follow the prophet, he knows the way." We teach our members that they should do whatever the prophet tells them to do because even if he is wrong, we will be blessed for it. It is against this backdrop that I feel it pertinent and appropriate to blame Church leaders not for personal failings, but for getting things wrong. Big things. Doctrinal things. Things like what race can and cannot have the Priesthood. Things like what babies can and cannot have blessings. Things like what children can and cannot be baptized. You know . . . important stuff like that.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, CA Steve said: Questioning the flawed leaders can get you kicked out of the perfect Church. False statement. There is nothing wrong with questioning LDS leaders, and that doesn't get you kicked out. Moreover, they do not claim to be lacking flaws. Just the opposite. Second, there is no "perfect Church," and the LDS have never laid claim to such. Rather this is an example of the kind of angry sarcasm which is a substitute for polite and meaningful discussion. You know better, Steve.
JAHS Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: 3 hours ago, Pa Pa said: Why do so many post threads about the Church blaming it for human failings? Other do so and it is obvious they are either non-members, or only attending as small children. Everyone who is polite should be able to post, but at least be fair. We all have flaws, but is it fair to blame those flaws on the Church and the Gospel? My flaws and sins are my own and my own fault, I lay none of them at the alter of the Church and Sacrament. It is the same with every man, even General Authorities, but I have never know the GA's to blame the Church, not while GA's. It is true that in the early Church many GA's who became apostates did so. I am not preaching or bearing testimony, only seeking to know why. I know both are against the rules, so I am not going to break them and I am hoping those who reply do not. But membership and non-membership, all should be honest about the Church and their disagreements. Anyway, welcome other polite opinions. It would be one thing if the Church leaders claimed that they were fallible and prone to human mistakes, and were actually struggling to figure things out the same as you and I and the rest of us. If this were the case, it wouldn't make sense to blame leaders for human failings. The problem is that the LDS Church has gone all-in claiming doctrinal infallibility for their leaders. We teach our members from Primary up to "follow the prophet, don't go astray," and "follow the prophet, he knows the way." We teach our members that they should do whatever the prophet tells them to do because even if he is wrong, we will be blessed for it. It is against this backdrop that I feel it pertinent and appropriate to blame Church leaders not for personal failings, but for getting things wrong. Big things. Doctrinal things. Things like what race can and cannot have the Priesthood. Things like what babies can and cannot have blessings. Things like what children can and cannot be baptized. You know . . . important stuff like that. .The problem is if they are wrong about those things, who is right? Someone who is not a prophet of God? I am willing to take my chances with the prophets.
Danzo Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, CA Steve said: Questioning the flawed leaders can get you kicked out of the perfect Church. It's strange, I haven't hear of any of the people here who been kicked out for questioning the flawed leaders. And it seems that is what most people here end up doing.
Guest Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 12 minutes ago, consiglieri said: It would be one thing if the Church leaders claimed that they were fallible and prone to human mistakes, and were actually struggling to figure things out the same as you and I and the rest of us. My good friend, I have never gotten the feel that any of them think themselves more than men. The testimonies and books they write the talks they give when called they all speak of feeling unworthy of such callings. Joseph listed as scripture many rebukes from God. But the calling of the GA's is to teach the word of God to call all to repentance. Now as it relates to the children of Gay parents, I agree with you...because right now we will baptize any child with the parents consent, be they members or not. But our faith has righted wrongs before and they will right this one. Not every policy is a voice from heaven, but many times a matter of discussion between like minded men. The day will come that God in his own way will re-enlighten their minds that all children are not responsible for any sin to a certain and never responsible for the sins of their parents. Patience and faith, my brother, soon any and all errors will be corrected. This is the Lord's Church, "and who God calls he qualifies".
CA Steve Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: False statement. There is nothing wrong with questioning LDS leaders, and that doesn't get you kicked out. Moreover, they do not claim to be lacking flaws. Just the opposite. Second, there is no "perfect Church," and the LDS have never laid claim to such. Rather this is an example of the kind of angry sarcasm which is a substitute for polite and meaningful discussion. You know better, Steve. Hi Robert, I was responding to the OP which was drawing a distinction between the Church and the Gospel and the flawed people within even the GA's. Your attempt to paint it as a false statement completely misreads what it said. You will note that I said "can" get you kicked out and I did not claim leadership claim to be lacking flaws. Those are components you ignored or added. My reference to a perfect Church was based on the distinction the Op seemed to be making between flawed people and the Church, perhaps it was a bit better of a picture of the Church and gospel than was the OP was trying to say. Nothing in my one line statement was meant as sarcasm, I was merely trying to point out that even if the leaders are flawed the penalty for pointing it out CAN be excommunication. Certainly people like Kate Kelly & Denver Snuffler are good examples of that possibility. The point being that it is difficult to separate leadership from the Church in the way the OP seemed to imply. I always try and be polite Robert. .
Guest Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 3 hours ago, CA Steve said: Questioning the flawed leaders can get you kicked out of the perfect Church. No it cannot, unless you seeking to publicly destroy the testimony of others. That was unfair and uncalled for. Also none of those leaders called themselves perfect and when called their first address almost to a man is about how unworthy they feel being called.
consiglieri Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 34 minutes ago, JAHS said: The problem is if they are wrong about those things, who is right? Someone who is not a prophet of God? I am willing to take my chances with the prophets. If prophets of God are wrong about those things, maybe a new definition of "prophets of God" is in order. Or perhaps a revamping of one's personal list of "prophets of God." If you are willing to take your chances with such "prophets," the odds may be very long indeed.
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